RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (Full Version)

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Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/17/2013 9:13:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Morris does not say that the Dutch evolved differently than the Asians or the Arabs *morally*, and that's the discussion here... killing, not basketball.

No one said Barber was earth shatteringly novel, anyone who had read McCluhan would know better than that.
I said it laid out some principles relevant to the discussion.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:



That's the reality, and trying to pretend that one group has a monopoly is irrational.


But Morris does talk about mental evolution, tribal - it is sociology not physiology. The question remains which you have not answered, why do you think religious structures are the same, especially absent any evidence.

You are the one that are saying all religions are the same. Prove it, rather than assert it.




Which I have not done. However, it is equally irrational to think that all groups are the same. Thats like saying you can impose democracy in Iraq. Or that asians are as tall as the dutch.

It simply isn't *true*.

Why on earth do you think that evolution would favor the same strategies in the resource poor nordic areas as it would in areas where food was more abundant but competition for that food harder? Desmond Morris, Naked Ape says it isn't so.

In the same why, why do you think political structures or religious structures would be the same in the complete absence of any evidence. Thats like saying you can discern no difference between religions in california as the south. Utah vs Alaska.







Powergamz1 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/17/2013 11:21:45 AM)

I'll take that blank response as a concession.

Like I said, this isn't a debate to win by scoring the most points. I also never said anything about all religions having the same structure, that's yet another strawman fabrication on your part.

I said that people in every group kill. Period. You keep denying that, with nothing to back the counter-assertion up.

I've given citations so that people can go read the history of the region, if they want. You seem to be arguing against them as well. That documented history of Western meddling in the area isn't well supported.

Again, nothing to back up your counter assertion that either Barber, or Wawrow said anything untrue. Have you even read Quiksand?




Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/17/2013 11:32:34 AM)

I have no idea why the post didn't go. Spent quite a lot of time on it. Its certainly not a concession. However it is my perception that you have no interest in a back and forth discussion. Rather you ignore anything inconvenient and make assertions such as strawman without referencing what you are talking about and w/o any evidence to support your accusation. I am essentially acknowledging that I cannot have a productive interesting debate *with you*.

As Putin said - its like shearing a pig. A lot of squealing and precious little wool. Or as mama used to say in tenessee. Never argue with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig enjoys it.

A quick comment - I never said people in every group didn't kill. I have asserted that at EVERY point. I have asserted however that the question in this debate is not what people do - its whether the religion christ advances the same values as the religion that muslims advance.

Its not a strawman - its the freaking topic.

They are not. You maintain they are. I have provided quotes to prove my point. You have done nothing except to say that since all people kill all religions are the same. Again. and again. and again.

Oh. Not quite true. You did provide a reference that suggested that jihad is a viable response to cultural imperialism.
I never said Barber wasn't true. I said he was simplistic. However, Barber isn't to point.

Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?




quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I'll take that blank response as a concession.

Like I said, this isn't a debate to win by scoring the most points. I also never said anything about all religions having the same structure, that's yet another strawman fabrication on your part.

I said that people in every group kill. Period. You keep denying that, with nothing to back the counter-assertion up.

I've given citations so that people can go read the history of the region, if they want. You seem to be arguing against them as well. That documented history of Western meddling in the area isn't well supported.

Again, nothing to back up your counter assertion that either Barber, or Wawrow said anything untrue. Have you even read Quiksand?








truckinslave -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/17/2013 11:41:05 AM)

quote:

but when we're talking about the schism between Muslims and Christians,

I am not talking about that.
I am talking about the hatred of Muslims for everyone- Christians, Jews, Hindis, Buddhists- everyone- non-Muslim (we can leave the internecine hatred, which I believe should be encouraged, for another day).
To believe they hate America more than others is, imo, to be easily deceived. When they chant "Death to America", they are just putting a convenient face on their hatred. They could just as easily chant "Death to the West" or "death to the Jews" or "Death to India". And they sometimes do.



truckinslave -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/17/2013 11:46:31 AM)

and yet the Ten Commandments are prominently displayed above the Justices in the Supreme Court, clearly shown as the basis of US Law.

It's a treaty, and it included a bogus and kowtowing clause.



truckinslave -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/17/2013 11:52:52 AM)

quote:

We don't give a fuck about any of them.They only reason we give a damn at all is because they have oil,


How I yearn for the day their wells run dry, when the fucking they have given the world comes to an end, and they can feed their people sand.



Esinn -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/17/2013 3:48:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Boko Haram.

They detest our values, our actions, our very essence.
Their hatred is deep, vicious, and religiously based.
Until we accept that the source of their hatred is the God-damned Koran we will never even admit the problem.

They hate us for what we do, for who we are, and for breathing; but they hate us even more for what we are not. We are not Muslim.



Wow, are you currently enlisted in the military? Or any type of LE/FLEA position?



Powergamz1 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/17/2013 4:34:34 PM)

You've been told over and over that my position is that all cultures moral codes allow killings, and that whatever religion happens to be predominant in that time and place is far too often used as a rationalization.

You are literate, you know that's all I'm saying.

For you to keep piling on the lies that I've never addressed the topic while you make up fake statements and claim I wrote them, spells one thing, and only one thing... t-r-o-l-l-I-n-g.

You've been handed multiple opportunities to engage in honest discourse, and rejected them all in favor of these disingenuous games.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I have no idea why the post didn't go. Spent quite a lot of time on it. Its certainly not a concession. However it is my perception that you have no interest in a back and forth discussion. Rather you ignore anything inconvenient and make assertions such as strawman without referencing what you are talking about and w/o any evidence to support your accusation. I am essentially acknowledging that I cannot have a productive interesting debate *with you*.

As Putin said - its like shearing a pig. A lot of squealing and precious little wool. Or as mama used to say in tenessee. Never argue with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig enjoys it.

A quick comment - I never said people in every group didn't kill. I have asserted that at EVERY point. I have asserted however that the question in this debate is not what people do - its whether the religion christ advances the same values as the religion that muslims advance.

Its not a strawman - its the freaking topic.

They are not. You maintain they are. I have provided quotes to prove my point. You have done nothing except to say that since all people kill all religions are the same. Again. and again. and again.

Oh. Not quite true. You did provide a reference that suggested that jihad is a viable response to cultural imperialism.
I never said Barber wasn't true. I said he was simplistic. However, Barber isn't to point.

Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?




quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I'll take that blank response as a concession.

Like I said, this isn't a debate to win by scoring the most points. I also never said anything about all religions having the same structure, that's yet another strawman fabrication on your part.

I said that people in every group kill. Period. You keep denying that, with nothing to back the counter-assertion up.

I've given citations so that people can go read the history of the region, if they want. You seem to be arguing against them as well. That documented history of Western meddling in the area isn't well supported.

Again, nothing to back up your counter assertion that either Barber, or Wawrow said anything untrue. Have you even read Quiksand?










Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/17/2013 4:44:48 PM)


Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?



SimplyMichael -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/17/2013 5:12:18 PM)

Thou shalt not kill*

*except using nuclear weapons, gas chambers, drones, incendiaries, electric chair, and the list goes on.

To quote the ten commandments as proof of anything,but,hypocricy is just sad.



Esinn -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 1:02:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?


No religious values are "consonant" with western civilization. That said... Yes... Muslim religion is as fine as any other. And as evil as them all. If I am to accept Christianity. I see no reason to devalue Muslims/Islam. Besides ARAB/Persian chicks are fucking hot!



mnottertail -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 1:17:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?



Do you think the values espoused in the christian religion are consonant with western civilization? Oh, For Fucks Sake, show your work.........this is gonna be a fuckin hoot.



Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 2:55:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?



Do you think the values espoused in the christian religion are consonant with western civilization? Oh, For Fucks Sake, show your work.........this is gonna be a fuckin hoot.



Since my topic is the muslim religion, I chose to restrain my comments to that topic. I'll throw out some topics for consideration.

Generally, I would say no:
1. Women are not allowed to work outside the home.
2. women are not to be touched by non-family males.
3. Polygamy is allowed.
4. I would say culturally that muslims have great resistance to dress, dance, music, gay rights etc.
5. Rejection of the concept of statism.

ala Huntingdon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash_of_Civilizations

Akbar Ahmed in posterodernism and islam says

"In the main, Muslim civilzation appears to be at variance with western civilization."

He advances the idea that striking a balance between din religion and dunya the world is a worthy one. But I would say that the West had long ago rejected that concept.

For example:
Prophet: how will you decide a problem?
Muadh: According to the Quran
Prophet: If it is not in it?
Muadh: According to the sunna [islamic tradition].
Prophet; If it is not in that either
Muadh: then I will use my own reasoning.

This line of reasoning - religious texts and tradition first conflicts, I think.

He speaks to the tyranny (and rejection of the nation state)
When speaking about Saudi arabia etc " the modern state appears to be an unmitigated European disaster imposed upon these tribesmen".







Politesub53 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 4:17:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?


Do you think Muslims in the west all espouse these views......... Rhetorical question, as the answer is they dont.

Projecting on a whole Religion is divisive, ignorant and bigoted.



Powergamz1 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 4:23:31 PM)

quote:

4. I would say culturally that muslims have great resistance to dress, dance, music, gay rights etc.


Gay rights, overall yes. I have no idea where you get those others. Do you think all Muslims, or even all Arabian Muslims simply sit around in tents in the desert doing nothing?



Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 4:43:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

quote:

4. I would say culturally that muslims have great resistance to dress, dance, music, gay rights etc.


Gay rights, overall yes. I have no idea where you get those others. Do you think all Muslims, or even all Arabian Muslims simply sit around in tents in the desert doing nothing?


I quoted the source.
But here are some others:

In the year 2005, an Islamic Organization Jamiat-e-Ulama-e-Hind based in Kolkata issued a fatwa warning ominously that Mirza would be ‘stopped from playing’ if she did not start wearing ‘proper clothes’

But the Malaysian National Fatwa council hates such girls. (Actually they hate all kind of girls). So in order to prove their point, they ordered a Fatwa against girls who dress like Tomboys. Abdul Shukor Husin, chairman of the council, said many young women admire the way men dress and behave – and branded it a denial of their femininity and a violation of human nature. He said: “It is unacceptable to see women who love the male lifestyle including dressing in the clothes men wear.

In 2006, Hasan Khalil a former dean of Al-Azhar University, Cairo ruled that a marriage would be considered void if the couple had sex in a naked state.

In 2005, a 28 year old woman, Imrana was raped by her father-in-law Ali Mohammad in a village in India. Rather thanlistening to the plea of the poor woman, the Islamic court in Deoband issued a fatwa which said that as a result of her father-in-law’s act, she should now be treated as the mother of her husband and she could no longer live with him.

An Islamic cleric from Kashmir has issued fatwa against low-waist jeans, stating it as haraam in Islam. Now I don’t understand what wrong this low-waist jeans has done against Muslims? I fear they don’t issue Fatwa against Woodland and Levis in near future. Let’s find out why fatwa was issued against low-waist jeans: (News from Daily Bhaskar)

So here's one about western music: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1786

And another: http://www.islamawareness.net/Music/music_fatwa003.html

Here's one against all girl bands: http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-02-04/india/36741792_1_noma-nazir-fatwa-talented-young-girls

Here's the Spiritual leader of Iran saying you may not wear ties: - Wearing ties and bow ties http://www.khamenei.de/fatwas/29questions.htm#-%20Wearing%20colorful%20clothes

Note further down about western labels.

Here he says that teaching music is forbidden:http://www.khamenei.de/fatwas/29questions.htm#-%20Types%20of%20forbidden%20music

Women should not ride bicycles: http://www.khamenei.de/fatwas/29questions.htm#-%20Permissibility%20of%20women%20riding%20bicycles%20and%20motor%20bikes

Do you really need more cites?






Politesub53 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 4:54:37 PM)

It seems you need more sites....... Hardly unbiased sources are they ?

You do know the village elders who made that ruling did so counter to Islamic law on rape, right ?

You do know the rapist father-in-law was jailed for ten years, right ?



Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 5:13:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You do know the rapist father-in-law was jailed for ten years, right ?


Sure. After secular Indian authorities intervened.



Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 5:16:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

And that dipshit Baptist church protests soldiers funerals because we allow gay marriage.





Sure, but Christian weirdness doesn't really address the question, does it? Are you saying that you don't think my posts accurately represent Muslim Teaching?

Then provide some quotes.

Show a Muslim religious authority saying Rushdie shouldn't die, or that its ok for girls to wear jeans. Especially one that has a significant amount of authority.



Politesub53 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 5:18:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You do know the rapist father-in-law was jailed for ten years, right ?


Sure. After secular Indian authorities intervened.



Well played on ignoring the rest of the post........ Such as the part where I pointed out your claim was contradictory to Islamic law.



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