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RE: The worst sorts of racists - 7/19/2013 6:36:09 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

To me this looks like racial profiling.

Perhaps because you view this through the prism of racial profiling and are trying to make the testing issue fit your preconceived notion.

quote:

but past test resoults had been collected by etnicity and every other information disappeard in the average value, that etnicity matters is something a person decided when datas were collected so before they could be studied.

My experience is that past tests are collected at the schools and passed on SEALED to the District or more likely the state for grading. The grades are assigned and that data is passed back to the District and made public in newspapers. I would also guess that whoever studied the results at the state level went looking to see what kinds of populations these schools had to try and understand the disparity in the results. School desegregation law is very insistent that states keep track of ethnic and racial populations along with poverty data and special needs data.

quote:

If I collect the datas by gender I'll never find the same number for males or females, I'll always find a slight difference, but thinking this means something is a common fallacy that usually afflicts gamblers for example, it's just casuality, so if I read the datas I can tell that the 3% difference between poverty and black is just a casuality maybe next year black will do better than poors.

That would be true if the results were based on a one off. But there is a history of this testing going back to the Bush Administration No Child Left Behind Act signed into law January 8, 2002. There is an abundance of data to show trends.

quote:

This was the part about racism, but I see another red hearring in the plan.
This whole plan is a way to deny state's responsibility in failing goals fixed in the former plan just telling this goals where irrealistic, so it was not political administration's fault but the problem is "you can't choose the kids you teach to". This can also be a convenient justification for future faliures: "it's not our policies were bad but the bar for that etnicity was too high".

The corollary to this plan is that schools doing poorly on the tests could apply for money grants to bring in more teachers, more experienced teachers if needed, and devise plans/techniques to improve the learning of the students. Actually, poor testing schools benefit more than good testing schools. Sorta like the NBA draft.

quote:

This connects with the race example this year's 3rd graders started from 1st grade when poicies about improving education where required so they started all on the same spot with the same legislation, it's the state faliure if they filed in what they where supposed to do.

Sadly, children do not all begin at the same spot in the first grade. Learning, listening, and talking skills, as well as personality begin to develop in early childhood during the first eighteen months of growth. Some children are advantaged with excellent preschool environments and parents that read to them. Unfortunately, many are not. They are left behind before they even get to the first grade. If a child is developmentally unreceptive to learning or unsocialized its success in school is already jeopardised.

After writing all of the above I looked further into the cited article and found this astonishing statement on page 4:

Black third-graders are expected to go from 79 percent passing in math in 2013 to 88.5 percent in 2018, while whites are expected to go from 91.5 percent in 2013 to 95.4 percent in 2018.

Read it carefully. Black third grade test success is expected to improve by 9.5% while white thrid grade improvement is expected to be only 4% MORE is expected of the black schools than of the white schools. So, how is that racially detrimental to blacks?

The premise of the title of the thread and the original post were just plain mistaken.

If you set the same end standard for the black student schools you would be requiring a leap of 16.4 percentage points. While the white schools only were expected to improve by 4%
That is pretty damn unrealistic. It is punishing to the black schools.


< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/19/2013 7:03:22 PM >

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: The worst sorts of racists - 7/19/2013 7:01:57 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

When they hope that "only" 21% of black kids pass they are
A Still expecting less out of black kids
and
B Moving kids into the grade who are not ready for it.


Ermmm . . . please explain the 21%, Bama. I think you are misrepresenting the article and the data.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The worst sorts of racists - 7/20/2013 12:17:58 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Perhaps because you view this through the prism of racial profiling and are trying to make the testing issue fit your preconceived notion.


I just say that there is nothing genetically keeping the child of other ethnicity back, so using skin color as a parameter is not scientific, and judge people by the color of the skin when it's not directly relevant is the definition of racism.

quote:

School desegregation law is very insistent that states keep track of ethnic and racial populations along with poverty data and special needs data.


this just means that former laws should be reconsidered

quote:


That would be true if the results were based on a one off. But there is a history of this testing going back to the Bush Administration No Child Left Behind Act signed into law January 8, 2002. There is an abundance of data to show trends.


but none of this trends show the reasons and random mistakes are random so this doesn't mean they compensate it's a fallacy thinking this way

quote:


The corollary to this plan is that schools doing poorly on the tests could apply for money grants to bring in more teachers, more experienced teachers if needed, and devise plans/techniques to improve the learning of the students. Actually, poor testing schools benefit more than good testing schools. Sorta like the NBA draft.


of course that's the policie planned to reach the goals but as I told before it's not that adding something erases the fact they keep tracking resoults mostly by skin color.

quote:


Sadly, children do not all begin at the same spot in the first grade. Learning, listening, and talking skills, as well as personality begin to develop in early childhood during the first eighteen months of growth. Some children are advantaged with excellent preschool environments and parents that read to them. Unfortunately, many are not. They are left behind before they even get to the first grade. If a child is developmentally unreceptive to learning or unsocialized its success in school is already jeopardised.


I learned to read as a self-taught at the age of 4 and a half (school starts at 6 in italy I don't know in the usa) when in first grade I had an "easier life" but than the gap was soon covered, and there was still a lot to learn, if the goal of education is just to learn how to read, write and count this are poor goals, that were enough for the 19th century not for the 21st.


quote:


Black third-graders are expected to go from 79 percent passing in math in 2013 to 88.5 percent in 2018, while whites are expected to go from 91.5 percent in 2013 to 95.4 percent in 2018.

Read it carefully. Black third grade test success is expected to improve by 9.5% while white thrid grade improvement is expected to be only 4% MORE is expected of the black schools than of the white schools. So, how is that racially detrimental to blacks?

The premise of the title of the thread and the original post were just plain mistaken.

If you set the same end standard for the black student schools you would be requiring a leap of 16.4 percentage points. While the white schools only were expected to improve by 4%
That is pretty damn unrealistic. It is punishing to the black schools.



I read and carefully all the article and understood it, I can assure you I'm not an illitterate and my english comprension level is enough to see this, even if it's not my language, so please do not suppose that my ideas comes from a lack of comprehension.

This is the red herring part I already talked about, they where supposed to reach goals even before and when FAILED they just declared this where irrealistic, this goals are again on paper so if pubblic administration fails again they can deny their responsibility and say the goals where again irrealistic.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: The worst sorts of racists - 7/20/2013 6:18:32 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I read and carefully all the article and understood it, I can assure you I'm not an illitterate and my english comprension level is enough to see this, even if it's not my language, so please do not suppose that my ideas comes from a lack of comprehension.

Uh no. You are much too sensititve. I was not commenting on your comprehension

quote:

if the goal of education is just to learn how to read, write and count this are poor goals, that were enough for the 19th century not for the 21st.

Reading, writing, and counting provide a basis for lifelong learning. This test is for eight year old children. The components tested are hardly an end goal of education.

quote:

This is the red herring part I already talked about, they where supposed to reach goals even before and when FAILED they just declared this where irrealistic, this goals are again on paper so if pubblic administration fails again they can deny their responsibility and say the goals where again irrealistic.

The purpose of the tests are to identify those schools that need extra assistence in jmproving their programs.

You first insist on racial bias. Then you concoct some devious plot by the state to avoid responsibility. Your judgments are misguided but they are yours. I leave you with them.

ciao

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: The worst sorts of racists - 7/20/2013 7:41:11 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
vincentML, I never fixed just on racism and then changed my mind but discussion evolved and I talked about other things I see as dark areas.
I'm not sesitive and I argumentate my point while you just cut it short telling I'm misguided.

The law starts with a racial porfiling, maybe it was not intentional and due to former legislation but I don't see how former discrimination can make actual ethnical prejudice right, than goes on renegotiating goals to what they define realistic based on former faliure to accomplish federal goals, if you connect the possibility to renegotiate goals and the ethnical classification than I (and some others posters) think this will lead to racial discrimination.

Quality of a school can be judged directly by the school resoults not by average racial group resoults multiplicated by the ethincal school composition. But if you say it's mandatory use skin color I'll have to belive you.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 65
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