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[Poll]

Who are more free... Americans or Europeans

Americans have more freedoms

37% (22)

Europeans have more freedoms

35% (21)

Both are about as free as eachother

27% (16)

Total Votes : 59

(last vote on : 8/22/2013 9:34:29 AM)
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RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 10:02:47 AM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Europeans can walk into any hospital and get free treatment, even if you are in another country... Would I swap that for the sake of a bit less tax..........No, not in a million years.

BULLSHIT Europeans cannot walk into hospitals all over europe and get free treatment you really wanna test this statement with me?

I, or family members, have walked into hospitals in Spain, Italy, Greece, France, Germany and Denmark and received free treatment.

Obviously it wasn't "free" - I've paid taxes, but my taxes to entitle me to healthcare pretty much wherever I go in Europe, or at least they appear to, based on my actual factual experience.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 101

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 10:05:50 AM

OldWolfMCMLXIII

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/30/2006
Status: offline

Same Sex marriage is LEGAL in the UK Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2013-14/marriagesamesexcouplesbill.html Gained royal assent 17 July, 2013

_____________________________

"Comets are like cats: they have tails, and they do precisely what they want."

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 102

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 10:08:22 AM

OldWolfMCMLXIII

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/30/2006
Status: offline

Europeans cannot walk into hospitals all over europe and get free treatment you really wanna test this statement with me? sure! In the UK you get a free card called EHIC - European Health Insurance Card http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/EHIC/Pages/about-the-ehic.aspx

Important
The EHIC replaced the old E111 in 2006. The card is not an alternative to travel insurance. It will not cover any private medical healthcare or costs such as mountain rescue in ski resorts, being flown back to the UK, or lost or stolen property. Therefore, it is important to have both an EHIC and a valid private travel insurance policy. Some insurers now insist you hold an EHIC and many will waive the excess if you have one.

_____________________________

"Comets are like cats: they have tails, and they do precisely what they want."

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 103

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 10:12:34 AM

Powergamz1

Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline

And doesn't take effect until 2014. Find one single same sex couple that is legally married in the UK, (or the other countries I listed) *today*....

Now compare that to the same sex couples that have been legally married in the USA over the past *years*.

some.... none. One of these things is not like the other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldWolfMCMLXIII

Same Sex marriage is LEGAL in the UK Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2013-14/marriagesamesexcouplesbill.html Gained royal assent 17 July, 2013

< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 7/25/2013 10:13:17 AM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to OldWolfMCMLXIII)

Post #: 104

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 10:17:25 AM

MrBukani

Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Europeans can walk into any hospital and get free treatment, even if you are in another country... Would I swap that for the sake of a bit less tax..........No, not in a million years.

BULLSHIT Europeans cannot walk into hospitals all over europe and get free treatment you really wanna test this statement with me?

I, or family members, have walked into hospitals in Spain, Italy, Greece, France, Germany and Denmark and received free treatment.

Obviously it wasn't "free" - I've paid taxes, but my taxes to entitle me to healthcare pretty much wherever I go in Europe, or at least they appear to, based on my actual factual experience.

Glad someone clarified this and this is only english rules you are talkin about now, every country in europe has different rules on this subject.
Do not make idle statements in my presence cause i can GOOGLE too

There are currently 300.000 dutch citizens that cannot pay their health insurance. Thats the other side of the story.

(in reply to crazyml)

Post #: 105

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 10:59:51 AM

MrBukani

Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

There is currently a case about this goin on because spanish hospitals are charging europeans on holiday heavily for services.
Also if you don't have the right insurance you can get heavy bills on your kids for example.

It's not so cut and dry easy as you make it out to be.
And that gives false impressions to other people who are not well informed.
Pretty dangerous shit when your playing with other dumbfucks health.

I guess you all want a link cause you dont trust ME right.
Hold on...

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 7/25/2013 11:04:02 AM >

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 106

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 11:07:00 AM

eulero83

Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline

FR

I don't understand the whole point of the discussion here, it's all gone in the "I've got this so I'm better" "No I'm better 'cos I've got that", universal health care is a not a matter of freedom is related to solidarety, gay marriage is about cultural differences in how the people of a country see the concept of family, but there is no european country where is forbidden to be gay.

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 107

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 11:16:06 AM

MrBukani

Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92916560

What you also forget to mention is what is and what's not insured, different ballgame in every country.
That is why oppose these loose statements that signal of wrong impressions about Europe and healthcare.

EU warns Spain over hospitals' rejection of EU health card

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22714147

And there's a lot more to this story so politesub crazyml and others want to test this statement another time?

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 108

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 11:20:11 AM

MrBukani

Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

I don't understand the whole point of the discussion here, it's all gone in the "I've got this so I'm better" "No I'm better 'cos I've got that", universal health care is a not a matter of freedom is related to solidarety, gay marriage is about cultural differences in how the people of a country see the concept of family, but there is no european country where is forbidden to be gay.

Try not to step in a spanish beartrap then if you dont understand we are talkin about all freedoms not just gays.

(in reply to eulero83)

Post #: 109

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 11:25:05 AM

Powergamz1

Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline

There is no place in the US where it is illegal to be gay either, so that's a non sequitur. There are many places in the USA where a same sex couple has the freedom to go down to the courthouse and get a marriage license.

Can you provide a factual link to all of these same sex couples who *currently* enjoy the freedom to get a marriage license in the UK, Italy, and the other places I named?

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

I don't understand the whole point of the discussion here, it's all gone in the "I've got this so I'm better" "No I'm better 'cos I've got that", universal health care is a not a matter of freedom is related to solidarety, gay marriage is about cultural differences in how the people of a country see the concept of family, but there is no european country where is forbidden to be gay.

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to eulero83)

Post #: 110

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 11:33:03 AM

MrBukani

Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

Dutch law allows same-sex couples the same marriage, legal, and inheritance rights as traditional marriage. Other official partnerships include Registered Partnerships and Cohabitation Contracts...

There are three recognised unions in the Netherlands, all available to both same-sex and heterosexual people:

Civil marriage
Registered partnership
Cohabitation agreement
Legal Criteria
People entering into civil marriage and registered partnerships have legal criteria to meet, while the terms of a cohabitation agreement are not obligatory unless a legal document is created by the parties.

In order to enter into civil marriage or a registered partnership the following criteria must be met:

Only two people are allowed in the union and both must be single when entering it
Both must be 18 years or older or have the permission of a guardian
At least one partner must be Dutch, or foreign with Dutch residency status.
Note: a non-Dutch partner without a residency permit must submit a statement issued by the Aliens Police (Vreemdelingendienst) on their status under the Aliens Act
The law of the home country is irrelevant for foreigners qualifying to marry in Holland. Only Dutch law applies. However, there is no guarantee that same-sex marriage will be recognised in the home - or any other - country.

http://southholland.angloinfo.com/information/family/marriage-partnerships/same-sex-marriage/

here dutch law to the letter for you.

(in reply to Powergamz1)

Post #: 111

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 11:44:30 AM

MrBukani

Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

Ten years after the Netherlands became the first country to legalise same-sex marriage, homosexual couples still marry far less often than heterosexual couples, partly because they still face obstacles when they wish to have children.

Just 20 percent of Dutch homosexual couples are married, compared with 80 percent of heterosexual couples, fresh figures by Statistics Netherlands show.

• Watch a decade of same-sex marriages on video

Number crunching
Since 1 April 2001, when the Netherlands became the first country to legalise same-sex marriage, some 15,000 gay and lesbian couples have tied the knot.

That is two percent of all marriages celebrated in Holland, and just 20 percent of the 55,000 same-sex couples the country numbers.

Among the country’s 4.1 million heterosexual couples, 80 percent are married.

Divorce among same-sex couples accounts for one percent of all divorces.

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/ten-years-same-sex-marriage-a-mixed-blessing

Good thing not? That most dutchies speak 3 languages.

ah forget about it you probably dont get this joke anyway...

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 7/25/2013 11:48:23 AM >

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 112

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 11:50:42 AM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Europeans can walk into any hospital and get free treatment, even if you are in another country... Would I swap that for the sake of a bit less tax..........No, not in a million years.

BULLSHIT Europeans cannot walk into hospitals all over europe and get free treatment you really wanna test this statement with me?

I, or family members, have walked into hospitals in Spain, Italy, Greece, France, Germany and Denmark and received free treatment.

Obviously it wasn't "free" - I've paid taxes, but my taxes to entitle me to healthcare pretty much wherever I go in Europe, or at least they appear to, based on my actual factual experience.

Glad someone clarified this and this is only english rules you are talkin about now, every country in europe has different rules on this subject.
Do not make idle statements in my presence cause i can GOOGLE too

There are currently 300.000 dutch citizens that cannot pay their health insurance. Thats the other side of the story.

I'm terribly sorry, I appreciate that you cannot be expected to grasp the subtler nuances of the English language. By starting the sentence with "I" I was laying out a clue that I was only talking about my experience.

I'm quite sure that I didn't make any claim about all Europeans. Indeed, I didn't necessarily make any claim about British people - The only claim I made was about me and my experience.

But, since definitions are so fucking important to you,...The statement "Europeans cannot walk into hospitals all over europe and get free treatment you really wanna test this statement with me?" could easily be misinterpreted to mean that no European can walk into hospitals all over europe and get free treatment" Which is not true.

If you mean to say "it is not true that all Europeans can walk into hospitals all over europe....." then sure...

But do bear in mind that real life experience beats google every fucking time.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 113

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 11:52:37 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

I don't understand the whole point of the discussion here, it's all gone in the "I've got this so I'm better" "No I'm better 'cos I've got that", universal health care is a not a matter of freedom is related to solidarety, gay marriage is about cultural differences in how the people of a country see the concept of family, but there is no european country where is forbidden to be gay.

I think each country has its own little quirks, along with various laws and ordinances about what you can or can't do, so the question of who is more free comes down to an apples to oranges comparison.

If one checks out the Freedom House website, one can find an analysis of freedom in the world by country and region. The United States, Canada, and Western Europe are on a par with each other on their scale of 1-7, with 1 being the most free and 7 being the least free. Central and Eastern Europe includes some nations which are rated as not free or partly free.

I notice that they've added a new rating for internet freedom, 1 to 100 with 100 being the least free. Not every country has a rating, but the U.S. has a rating of 12/100, with Germany at 15/100, Italy at 23/100, and the UK at 25/100. So, at least on that scale, the U.S. has more internet freedom than Germany, Italy, or the UK.

(in reply to eulero83)

Post #: 114

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 11:53:52 AM

MrBukani

Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

sure crazy ml

so you are saying your personal experience beats the bbc news every time.

That's not just rich that is plain surfing over a tidal wave if you want to inform people.

In other words you want me to trust your word of personal experience over the BBC's
I think not

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 7/25/2013 11:55:56 AM >

(in reply to crazyml)

Post #: 115

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 12:04:25 PM

MrBukani

Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

And do remember this also, politesub did make a general statement about healthcare and you backed it up with 'personal' experience.
In my book that means you agree with the first.

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 116

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 12:08:42 PM

Falkenstein

Posts: 187
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline

Europe is not a country, and it has a lot of troubles of its own

Europeans are more free from companies: In the US, companies like to control their employees as well as their customers in ways that would be unthinkable over here.

The USA has the highest rate of incarceration of the western world. Why? Because the Americans are less honest than the Europeans? I do not believe that one second, but the judicial system, fired up by the private companies who run prisons and need customers, condemn people at a rate unmatched here.

Banks "repossess" house that never belonged to them in the first place, and just to be sure that everybody pays his mortgage, even if not mandated by law and against any economic self-interest, businesses perform credit checks.

As I said, Europe is not perfect, but the American Dream is dead, and that is a very sad thing for this world.

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 117

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 3:09:30 PM

Powergamz1

Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline

As Randy Newman said, 'Free to be kept in a cage...'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

Europe is not a country, and it has a lot of troubles of its own

Europeans are more free from companies: In the US, companies like to control their employees as well as their customers in ways that would be unthinkable over here.

The USA has the highest rate of incarceration of the western world. Why? Because the Americans are less honest than the Europeans? I do not believe that one second, but the judicial system, fired up by the private companies who run prisons and need customers, condemn people at a rate unmatched here.

Banks "repossess" house that never belonged to them in the first place, and just to be sure that everybody pays his mortgage, even if not mandated by law and against any economic self-interest, businesses perform credit checks.

As I said, Europe is not perfect, but the American Dream is dead, and that is a very sad thing for this world.

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Falkenstein)

Post #: 118

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 3:11:55 PM

Powergamz1

Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline

And 'Dutch' law controls Italy, the UK, Czech Republic, etc. since when?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Dutch law allows same-sex couples the same marriage, legal, and inheritance rights as traditional marriage. Other official partnerships include Registered Partnerships and Cohabitation Contracts...

There are three recognised unions in the Netherlands, all available to both same-sex and heterosexual people:

Civil marriage
Registered partnership
Cohabitation agreement
Legal Criteria
People entering into civil marriage and registered partnerships have legal criteria to meet, while the terms of a cohabitation agreement are not obligatory unless a legal document is created by the parties.

In order to enter into civil marriage or a registered partnership the following criteria must be met:

Only two people are allowed in the union and both must be single when entering it
Both must be 18 years or older or have the permission of a guardian
At least one partner must be Dutch, or foreign with Dutch residency status.
Note: a non-Dutch partner without a residency permit must submit a statement issued by the Aliens Police (Vreemdelingendienst) on their status under the Aliens Act
The law of the home country is irrelevant for foreigners qualifying to marry in Holland. Only Dutch law applies. However, there is no guarantee that same-sex marriage will be recognised in the home - or any other - country.

http://southholland.angloinfo.com/information/family/marriage-partnerships/same-sex-marriage/

here dutch law to the letter for you.

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 119

RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/25/2013 4:48:00 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And doesn't take effect until 2014. Find one single same sex couple that is legally married in the UK, (or the other countries I listed) *today*....

Now compare that to the same sex couples that have been legally married in the USA over the past *years*.

some.... none. One of these things is not like the other.

Any prick can claim there are no gay marriages in the EU, then list countries where there are none, neatly sidestepping the countries that dont suit your purpose.

You lie, split hairs and avoid the truth. You claim same sex marriages are legal in the US, but that is only partially true. I think around 14 or so States allow that, A figure of around 30% of the population. Up until last novemeber it was even worse and you are abviously forgetting the row over Prop 8 In California.

For someone who berates everyone for not being truthful, you are treading the wrong side of the line. Duplicity springs to mind.

(in reply to Powergamz1)

Post #: 120

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