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Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 12:15:27 PM

kdsub

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We are blessed in Missouri to have some wonderful spring fed rock bottom float streams. This weekend a group of floaters were floating a popular section of the Meramec river around Steelville Mo.

The group had been drinking soda and beer…nothing new on the river I do it myself. One of the men need to urinate so the grouped pulled over to a gravel bar for a pit stop. The young man went to the edge of the bar and as he was preparing to go a man stepped out of the woods yelling …shooting a pistol in the air and at the foot of the man pissing on himself I’m sure.

He demanded they get off his property. At least three other men came running to the shots and an argument ensued over property rights. One of the men picked up rock from the bar and another stepped in front trying to defuse the situation. The man trying to defuse the fight put his arm out to push the gun aside. The property owner then stepped back and shot him in the face killing him.

He claims he felt threatened and had a right to defend his property… He was arrested and is still in custody but I am wondering if he will use the Missouri version of SYG as a defense… I would not be surprised.

I wonder how long it will take people to realize these laws are too vague and easily abused.

HERE is the story

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/23/2013 12:17:26 PM >

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 1:10:10 PM

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I don't thik it would really bother me if someone took a piss on land that I owned.

(P.S. never bring a rock to a gun fight.)

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/23/2013 1:11:03 PM >

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 1:11:56 PM

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If it is anything like minnesota, he would not be defending his property, if it can be reached within a few feet from the navigable waterway (I think ours is 30 feet).

He would go down, that is DNR (and therefore public) right of way.

*snort* DNR not DMV.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/23/2013 1:12:58 PM >

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 1:14:14 PM

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The gun toter is in deep deep doo doo. His defending property from a floater taking a leak ain't gonna wash.

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 1:17:25 PM

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People need to learn not to try to grab other people's guns.

< Message edited by truckinslave -- 7/23/2013 1:18:00 PM >

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 1:18:53 PM

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So we have your expert legal opinion based on all your years of experience, that it is perfectly legal to bash somebody's head in with a rock on their land, as long as you catch them within 30 feet of the water? They lose all rights to self defense based on location?
Does that go for other crimes too? OK to rape people near the waterways, nothing they can legally do about it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If it is anything like minnesota, he would not be defending his property, if it can be reached within a few feet from the navigable waterway (I think ours is 30 feet).

He would go down, that is DNR (and therefore public) right of way.

*snort* DNR not DMV.

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 1:32:33 PM

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From the article - Authorities on Sunday charged Crocker with second-degree murder. He was being held Monday in lieu of $650,000 bail at the Crawford County Jail.

I'm familiar with trespass laws. Floaters have stopped there for years.

Paul Wilkerson, owner of the Rafting Co., said the float has been an annual event for the group for at least the last five years.

“They’re a real nice group of people,” Wilkerson said. “We never had any trouble or complaints regarding them.”

He said there haven’t been any problems stopping on gravel bars in the past, but the company does require floaters to sign a release saying they’ll avoid littering, stay out of posted areas and leave quickly and courteously when asked by a property owner.

In the article it says - But who has rights to do what isn’t always clear on the river.

Quite so. As far as floaters go, if they respect the property (litter, etc) the property owner has either potentially granted an easement or one potentially exists due to the nature of the river itself.

Rob Brandenburg, an agent who covers Crawford County for the Missouri Conservation Department, said property lines actually go to the center of the river. The public’s right to use this property is an easement much like a public road, Brandenburg said. A property owner owns a county road to the center of the road, for example, but a person can use that road.

Missouri needs change those laws. One cannot privately own what is accessible to the public, like the river one can float down.

“These cases are really very confusing. They are difficult to interpret,” Styron said. “You are on private property, but you have a right to be there if it’s a navigable stream and as long as you are on a gravel bar that is submerged during parts of the year, because it’s part of the stream bed.” (bolding added)

BINGO! Like no one can stop someone from being below the high water mark on the coast, private property or not.

But either way, he said, “it obviously doesn’t have anything to do with people shooting people. We don’t have a stand-your-gravel-bar law yet.”

The shooter is toast.

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 1:34:41 PM

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Nope, but you keep on with your shithouse lawyering and saying ignorant shit like that.

Shoot somebody for trespassing on the sidewalk. Its your land, you got a right to aim guns at them right, Mr Shithouselawyer?

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 1:39:23 PM

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The shooter will say he was trying to prevent indecent exposure as his cows were traumatized at an early age by the sight of a penis and a nearby tree stump.

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 1:39:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am wondering if he will use the Missouri version of SYG as a defense… I wonder how long it will take people to realize these laws are too vague and easily abused.

Do you think we could wait until he claims SYG and a court finds in his favor instead of trying to milk a dry tit?

K.

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 1:43:37 PM

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Gun owner is in doodoo. Testimony will be that he shot a man trying to prevent a fight and hence a reasonable person will not feel threatened.

Too bad the guy that was shot wasn't black, so we can show that the laws aren't racist. Wonder if sharpton will show up.

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 1:50:14 PM

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Ahhh, so you were simply making up that 30 feet nonsense and pretending it was the law. So noted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Nope, but you keep on with your shithouse lawyering and saying ignorant shit like that.

Shoot somebody for trespassing on the sidewalk. Its your land, you got a right to aim guns at them right, Mr Shithouselawyer?

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 2:02:40 PM

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meandered land, and from the center to where is the right of way in missouri? Thats what counts.

"In order to protect the public health or safety, local units of government may establish by ordinance restrictions upon public access to any wetlands from city, county or township roads which abut wetlands." In all other cases (i.e., state or federal roads abutting "wetlands" or any public road abutting a "public water"), the public has the riparian right of access.

That is a clip from our law, here, as you can see it can change per township, that makes it hard to say what the actual number is depending on where you are in Minnesota. I belive the federal sort of rules over it all, which is along the lines of the person owns to the ordinary low water mark (the bed), but the right of way is to the ordinary high water mark.

Your fuckin nonsensical non legal asswipe spewing notwithstanding. It is pretty much in alignment with what I said, there the legal opinion that you got from a real lawyer who knows law, not some other shithouser.

But never fear, according to you the prosecution must legally phone it in, they cannot prosecute this with any zeal. The guy will get a chaise lounge at the Copa.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/23/2013 2:05:38 PM >

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 2:07:54 PM

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You're correct Notter. Where waters are navigable is the crux.

Now, the guy walking into the adjacent woods to pee may have been a technical trespass, but most definitely not worthy of being shot.

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“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 2:09:40 PM

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Thank you Crochtie. However, a woods walk, that is getting far afield, criminal trespass is not a domestic violence crime, as of yet.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/23/2013 2:11:00 PM >

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 2:11:06 PM

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Zimmerman did it right, no witnesses, witnesses are nothing but trouble, the shooter is going down.

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 2:12:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

You're correct Notter. Where waters are navigable is the crux.

Now, the guy walking into the adjacent woods to pee may have been a technical trespass, but most definitely not worthy of being shot.

A scene from "Apocalypse Now" is flashing through my head. You know, the one where the Creole fellow gets away from a tiger and he's repeating: "Never get outta the boat. Never get outta the fucking boat". Kind of weird ...

regards,

Capt. Benjamin L. Willard

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 7/23/2013 2:14:28 PM >

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 2:19:03 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Do you think we could wait until he claims SYG and a court finds in his favor instead of trying to milk a dry tit?

I guess the point I am making is these type of laws, whether used in his defense or not, make these types of tragedies more likely to happen. There is a growing attitude in rural Missouri I believe that guns are the way to solve problems of this type. Bible belt rural Missouri and their legislatures are the driving force for the liberal guns laws and stand your ground legislation in Missouri.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 2:19:20 PM

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Well, it could have been a scene from Deliverance, so you're probably gonna be ok, now.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/23/2013 2:19:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

That is getting far afield, criminal trespass is not a domestic violence crime, as of yet.

True, as to criminal trespass. This was mere tangential; to taking a pee. The trespass was limited and of no criminal nature. The shooter says he was defending his property. From what?

He's toast.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)

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