To Hell In A Handbasket

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Edwynn -> To Hell In A Handbasket (8/7/2013 1:27:33 AM)
Carl Icahn wants Dell to incur a mountain of debt solely for purpose of max payout to shareholders. And that after all their cash, too. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/07/us-dell-specialcommittee-idUSBRE9250MU20130307 And then this: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323420604578650350584438488.html "Private-equity firms are adding debt to companies they own to fund payouts to themselves at a record pace, as fears mount that the window for these deals will close if interest rates rise. So far this year, $47.4 billion of new loans and bonds have been sold by companies to pay dividends to the private-equity firms that own them, according to data provider S&P Capital IQ LCD. That is 62% more than the same period last year, which wound up being the biggest year on record, with $64.2 billion [of bonds openly for this purpose] sold to fund private-equity payouts." Remember all that crap the media told us about all the problems of the financial industry and of the whole world, in fact the whole financial meltdown, was due solely to "people using their house like an ATM," with out mentioning the fact that real wages had declined 4.7 % from 2000-2007, so in actuality people were just trying to keep from slipping further behind? Here's the latest reminder that the 'private equity' companies and solo privateers exist (and have always existed) only for purpose of using otherwise well-functioning companies and, if need be, the government "like an ATM," long before and long after the recent financial crisis.

Phydeaux -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/7/2013 1:29:37 AM)
Yep. Another unintended consequence of bernanke's efforts to keep the US afloat when we keep borrowing money.

Termyn8or -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/7/2013 1:30:24 AM)
I told you so. T^T

JeffBC -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/7/2013 1:34:24 AM)
what can I say to this except... sounds about right. I readily admit I came this understanding way later than I should've but yeah, pretty much Wall Street is nothing but sociopathic parasites.

Edwynn -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/7/2013 1:36:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Yep. Another unintended consequence of bernanke's efforts to keep the US afloat when we keep borrowing money. Which altogether is the intended consequence of the Republican and then later the Democrat's jihad against regulation of any sort, which when eventually bestowing such upon the financial industry, brought this all about.

Termyn8or -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/7/2013 1:55:08 AM)
Some economists predict as downturn for the next election. they did not say that it would NOT be because of something planned by republicans. Both sides are totally corrupt, don't put anything past any of them. T^T

cloudboy -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/7/2013 5:07:31 PM)
George clooney had some choice words for the hedge fund manager who was criticizing Sony. Would you classify these practices as vulture capitalism?

RottenJohnny -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/7/2013 6:41:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn ...jihad against regulation of any sort That's what I got out of it too...another attempt to avoid regulation by going private.

Termyn8or -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/7/2013 7:19:13 PM)
The fact is they're causing their own demise. I couldn't get much more pleased. T^T

RottenJohnny -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/8/2013 5:01:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or The fact is they're causing their own demise. I couldn't get much more pleased. T^T My guess is that they're pulling cash out the companies that have the clout to handle the financial strain in order to reinvest in new ground-floor companies we haven't heard of yet in less regulated countries and make another killing.

MrRodgers -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/8/2013 2:11:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Yep. Another unintended consequence of bernanke's efforts to keep the US afloat when we keep borrowing money. Let me break it down for you. What we are witness to is the very essence of today's maturation of real capitalism. The investor class turns stocks, futures, and other paper with names like derivatives whose underlying value is numbers on another piece of paper which has an underlying value of a matter of interest earnings or a spread in the prices for just about any two different...pieces of paper. The capitalist defines these things as securities which shouldn't surprise anyone given that they have extremely varying degrees of security and really couldn't be defined as one without the remainder of wall street calling them or rating the underlying economic reliability (security) as B BBB A AA AAA etc. So they make great a great marriage. When it is all said and done, capitalism is the risk of speculating in these values and often with borrowed money so if they don't pan out they owe and if their insurance (derivative) can't pay off...all parties are fucked. That's when society steps in making the investor class in fact greedy scum and the richest and ultimate socialists but rich ones, raking in profits as long as all goes well but deferring the risk to taxpayers...when things go wrong. Bernanke has little he can do. He either lets the risky banks usually smaller, go out of business and this removes their lending from the economy or he has the fed buy their bad debts (MBS's or CDO's) so they can keep lending or resume lending again. I wonder how many people actually know that he really in fact...isn't printing up money ? The fed during the big one in 1929 and 30's cut off all capital and it drastically extended the depression and for a purpose...to cause the remaining 15-16,000 private banks to fail and they did. Plus, [he] keeps mortgage and consumer interest rates low as we all know beyond all doubt now, borrowing is the only way for the US economy to create demand since at least 2/3 Americans are simply tapped out. We're still missing 2 million jobs in construction. Wall street, the paper-trading in no way serves society at large and in fact use society to serve them. They are not to serve society with now a legal responsibility to serve only stake or shareholders. In a way, all corporations and banking corporations in particular, one could argue, have what's called a fiduciary responsibility to borrow, gamble, trade. sell any and all kinds of paper relying upon taxpayer socialized risk to bail them out when their greed exceeds their assets. As for the OP, Icahn and those guys are like one-man equity bankers. One side-note though is that guys like Icahn are not like Warren Buffet. Buffet buys a property with intentions of hiring the right management and turning the company around for a greater return long term. Ican and his ilk don't know how to do that. They simply leverage enough paper in a co. and start throwing their weight around. Icahn did something similar with XO Comm. where he took up offices in Reston, Va. their HDQ. but didn't do a thing to turn it around and I think has lost a bundle. So the Carl Icahns of the world have lenders in their pocket and just try to buy paper to change it and resell some different paper.

Marini -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/8/2013 9:09:14 PM)
quote: Let me break it down for you. What we are witness to is the very essence of today's maturation of real capitalism. The investor class turns stocks, futures, and other paper with names like derivatives whose underlying value is numbers on another piece of paper which has an underlying value of a matter of interest earnings or a spread in the prices for just about any two different...pieces of paper. [sm=applause.gif] The capitalist defines these things as securities which shouldn't surprise anyone given that they have extremely varying degrees of security and really couldn't be defined as one without the remainder of wall street calling them or rating the underlying economic reliability (security) as B BBB A AA AAA etc. So they make great a great marriage. When it is all said and done, capitalism is the risk of speculating in these values and often with borrowed money so if they don't pan out they owe and if their insurance (derivative) can't pay off...all parties are fucked. That's when society steps in making the investor class in fact greedy scum and the richest and ultimate socialists but rich ones, raking in profits as long as all goes well but deferring the risk to taxpayers...when things go wrong. Bernanke has little he can do. He either lets the risky banks usually smaller, go out of business and this removes their lending from the economy or he has the fed buy their bad debts (MBS's or CDO's) so they can keep lending or resume lending again. I wonder how many people actually know that he really in fact...isn't printing up money ? [sm=applause.gif] The fed during the big one in 1929 and 30's cut off all capital and it drastically extended the depression and for a purpose...to cause the remaining 15-16,000 private banks to fail and they did. Plus, [he] keeps mortgage and consumer interest rates low as we all know beyond all doubt now, borrowing is the only way for the US economy to create demand since at least 2/3 Americans are simply tapped out. We're still missing 2 million jobs in construction. Wall street, the paper-trading in no way serves society at large and in fact use society to serve them. They are not to serve society with now a legal responsibility to serve only stake or shareholders. In a way, all corporations and banking corporations in particular, one could argue, have what's called a fiduciary responsibility to borrow, gamble, trade. sell any and all kinds of paper relying upon taxpayer socialized risk to bail them out when their greed exceeds their assets. As for the OP, Icahn and those guys are like one-man equity bankers. One side-note though is that guys like Icahn are not like Warren Buffet. Buffet buys a property with intentions of hiring the right management and turning the company around for a greater return long term. Ican and his ilk don't know how to do that. They simply leverage enough paper in a co. and start throwing their weight around. Icahn did something similar with XO Comm. where he took up offices in Reston, Va. their HDQ. but didn't do a thing to turn it around and I think has lost a bundle. So the Carl Icahns of the world have lenders in their pocket and just try to buy paper to change it and resell some different paper. Great post ! I think most people "understand" what is going on, it's just hard for many Americans to admit, that realistically this is how Capitalism operates in the United States.

JeffBC -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/8/2013 9:14:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini I think most people "understand" what is going on, it's just hard for many Americans to admit, that realistically this is how Capitalism operates in the United States. I agree. That was well put.

Real0ne -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/8/2013 9:44:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Yep. Another unintended consequence of bernanke's efforts to keep the US afloat when we keep borrowing money. Which altogether is the intended consequence of the Republican and then later the Democrat's jihad against regulation of any sort, which when eventually bestowing such upon the financial industry, brought this all about. yep they are protecting us from everyuselessthing but them.

Termyn8or -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/8/2013 10:48:54 PM)
FR Well I guess I'm in the mood...... See in the old days guys would save up and start a business. They worked hard and built the business and then quite whatever else they may had been doing and made it a success. The business grew using its own earnings as capital. The owners were the bosses and thet weren't going anywhere. Nobody forced any of these companies to go public, they did it to gain capital. Translated that means to get money. So the fact is that when they went public, they sold out. So when someone like Romney the Reaper comes along, he is only there collecting up what is his or his investors' rightful property. This is why the quarterly earnings are so important, the current crop of suits has to extract as much money out of the company as possible before the get put out on the street by those who previously sowed the company with investment capital come a reapin'. So those who claim that this is a natural stage in the development of a capitalist system are correct. As far as morals go, they are practically forbidden by law to have morals. If the company is publicly traded and can make more money by moving plants out of the country, they better either do it or possibly be accused of a conflict of interest. It could, in some cases be construed as fraud. i did not elect those who made those laws. I won't vote for anyone who wears a tie except for three exceptions and I have never been able to vote for them. Fuck those suits, I won't even wear a tie to court, ever. Fukum. T^T

Marini -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/9/2013 3:37:15 PM)
quote: Nobody forced any of these companies to go public, they did it to gain capital. Translated that means to get money. So the fact is that when they went public, they sold out. So when someone like Romney the Reaper comes along, he is only there collecting up what is his or his investors' rightful property. This is why the quarterly earnings are so important, the current crop of suits has to extract as much money out of the company as possible before the get put out on the street by those who previously sowed the company with investment capital come a reapin'. So those who claim that this is a natural stage in the development of a capitalist system are correct. Termy, we do agree sometimes. [;)]

DarkSteven -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/9/2013 4:43:53 PM)
That bothers me. I like seeing money made through providing goods and services. Bleeding companies dry, stealing their pensions, and then letting them fail, does not foster a healthy economy. It's a shame that the spotlight on that has faded since Romney is out of the scene.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/9/2013 5:21:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn Carl Icahn wants Dell to incur a mountain of debt solely for purpose of max payout to shareholders. And that after all their cash, too. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/07/us-dell-specialcommittee-idUSBRE9250MU20130307 And then this: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323420604578650350584438488.html "Private-equity firms are adding debt to companies they own to fund payouts to themselves at a record pace, as fears mount that the window for these deals will close if interest rates rise. So far this year, $47.4 billion of new loans and bonds have been sold by companies to pay dividends to the private-equity firms that own them, according to data provider S&P Capital IQ LCD. That is 62% more than the same period last year, which wound up being the biggest year on record, with $64.2 billion [of bonds openly for this purpose] sold to fund private-equity payouts." Remember all that crap the media told us about all the problems of the financial industry and of the whole world, in fact the whole financial meltdown, was due solely to "people using their house like an ATM," with out mentioning the fact that real wages had declined 4.7 % from 2000-2007, so in actuality people were just trying to keep from slipping further behind? Here's the latest reminder that the 'private equity' companies and solo privateers exist (and have always existed) only for purpose of using otherwise well-functioning companies and, if need be, the government "like an ATM," long before and long after the recent financial crisis. Wow. Companies (and wealthy individuals) are in the market to make money. When you have some (and understand the intricacies)...I'd love to read your comments. Icahn is more than sharp. Quite knowledgeable. I'd encourage you to read not only his history in business but, several (he has many) of his books and....get more knowledgeable about business in general. Actually....if I could ask one thing....it'd be the latter of that last sentence. If you did....you wouldn't have asked such an entirely uneduc....(so as to avoid contagion, I'll avoid completion).................................question.

Edwynn -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/10/2013 1:05:30 AM)
What 'question'? The only question was in the penultimate paragraph concerning people's memory of the media hogwash surrounding the cause of the financial debacle. There is no question concerning Icahn or what he does. He is a corporate raider that bleeds companies for cash, forces them to sell off assets (asset stripping), incur more debt, buy back stock, and whatever else he can force them to do to artificially and temporarily raise the stock price, whereupon he sells. But if you want questions, here are some: What 'business' does he have? Does he make a useful product? Does he offer any service to society? The only 'service' he offers is to like minded corporate stick-up artist wannabes who don't have his smarts or hyper-aggression needed for the task, so they eagerly tag along. He's never started any honest business on his own. He has only acquired stakes in what others started and built up. Whereupon Icahn does his hit-and run act, leaving the company with a lot less cash and a lot more debt. I am more than knowledgeable enough about business to know that any business that Icahn touches is worse off once he backs up his Brinks armored truck to the loading dock. Your supposition appears to be that I somehow 'find issue' with people making money. That would be attributable to poor reading skills on your part. People who make a useful product or provide a useful service are welcome to it, and lots of it, if it's done honestly, and with out having the US Treasury included in the business model, such as the case with Koch Bros., Monsanto, the financial industry, et al. Or through purely financial investment in companies only for purpose of forcing layoffs, selling assets, and incurring a mountain of debt in the process. Has the guy ever engaged in any actual capital investment, or do you even know the difference between capital investment and purely financial investment? Has any of his actions resulted in new people being hired, to make a useful product or service? Those are questions. The original post was not a question.

Edwynn -> RE: To Hell In A Handbasket (8/10/2013 11:39:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy George clooney had some choice words for the hedge fund manager who was criticizing Sony. Would you classify these practices as vulture capitalism? Sorry for the delay in response, but; a) I don't know or care what George Clooney says. I care about what people in the finance world have told me (e.g., Janet Tavakoli, Barry Ritholtz, et al.), b) funny you should mention "vulture" in regards to 'Capitalism.' Capitalism is not "vulturism" unless the 'law' allows it to be so. But that is in fact the ongoing effort for the last 30 years and still maintaining. But let's ask this: are the hedge funds 'filling a void' for something that the 150 yr. old corn or wheat futures hadn't been doing already? Were Standard Oil (Exxon) and the rail and airline companies standing there wringing hands, gnashing teeth, etc., for 100 years before before ICE came along and put the warm bottle of OTC deregulation into those babies' mouths?? Were there not corporate speculators before all these blatantly distopian private equity firms came along? Was the world not a fuck of a lot better off before this socioeconomically pathological derivatives pestilence came along? The Greg Palast book "Vulture's Picnic" should be required reading for all. Highly recommended.

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