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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 9:14:40 AM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
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@Kana, that article is wrong. I'll quote straight from the scientific article:

quote:


After having consumed a light dinner accompanied by a large
quantity of alcohol, two young women (SU and DE) and an
older Italian man went on to play an erotic game that included
bondage practices in an isolated, public location at about 4 am
that night. The two women, who remained dressed, without
either exposing their genitals or receiving sexual stimulation,
were tied to each other in a sort of pendulum so as to
counterbalance eachother, therebypracticinga Japanese erotic
figure (Shibari). The ropes were slung over metal tubes in the
basement of a local federal income tax building underground.
When one woman went down,the other one went up,thus causing
a feeling of suffocation thatwas considered sexually arousing.
While this gamewas being played,DEfainted (and lost urine),
which resulted in SUremaining suspended and in both her and
SU being asphyxiated for an extended period of time. As the
man involved in the game did not have a knife at hand, hewas
unable to cut the rope immediately. When he did manage to
release the two women, DE was dead and SU was in critical
condition.Themanwas arrestedand is presently awaitingtrial.


DE (the deceased victim) was clearly the one that fainted (first).

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 9:39:53 AM   
Kana


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Joined: 10/24/2006
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Ahhh, we have contradiction.
If I am incorrect, apologies. Crazy me,believing what I read.
Either way, playing fucked up with no safety equipment, especially things for quick release, is just beyond stupid.
It's like getting behind the wheel drunk. Yeah, most likely nothing bad will go down, but in doing so, one assumes the risk that it will. And if it does, it's entirely on the person.
You aren't gonna find much sympathy from me here. I play out on the edge.I like wild stuff. But I'm no fool about it

< Message edited by Kana -- 9/14/2013 9:40:50 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 11:13:01 AM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
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I do agree with one poster above that the girls, while victims, share the blame. They chose to play impaired and to play with an impaired top. Unacceptable. In the second description he did not rig himself to the girls, but there is still no way you should play with ropes without a knife handy. How basic is that? I prefer chains and padlocks, but I expect my top to have the key handy. Something could still go wrong, but at least it won't be because of something as stupid as having no quick release set up.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 11:57:07 AM   
littlewonder


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quote:

I do agree with one poster above that the girls, while victims, share the blame. They chose to play impaired and to play with an impaired top. Unacceptable.

Kana sez: I agree. It takes two (At least) to tango.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/15/2013 6:23:02 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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This is very sad because it is thoroughly avoidable.

People do some very stupid things sometimes. One can only be as safe as one's judgment.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/16/2013 3:56:23 AM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
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He did something stupid while drunk, and will pay dearly for it. The girls also each did something stupid while drunk, and will pay even more dearly than he. It's sad all the way around. We all hope and pray that our mistakes are ones we can walk away from unscathed, hopefully learn a lesson from. Not everyone gets that chance. Try not to be stupid - though we all will be sometimes.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/16/2013 9:22:20 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske
Try not to be stupid - though we all will be sometimes.



Tragically at least one of these women didn't get chance to learn a valuble lesson. I just hope her death makes others stop and think before embarking on this sort of play. Unfortunately though, if you have had a drink you tend to believe you're infallible.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/24/2013 3:37:51 AM   
BecomingV


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Joined: 11/11/2013
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All rules of rope safety begin with having a cutting tool at the ready.

Who is responsible for this? The bottom has a responsibility to ask the top if the knife is right there. It is further understood that the top is not to rely on the bottom to check this for them. Once in bondage, a bottom is vulnerable to the top's choices... such as, putting the knife out of reach or leaving the room, etc... So, the top, the top, the top, is responsible for the safety of the bottom!

Agreed. Using substances during any kind of BDSM play activities turns the activities into user/abuser dynamics, because consent becomes untrustworthy. (as do reflex times, physical skills and judgment abilities)

I disagree with the legal decision to use the charge of manslaughter instead of murder, for three reasons:

1) Consent is not present when substance use is present.
2) Not having a safety knife in an accessible pocket (a BDSM practice) is proof that this wasn't BDSM.
3) Charges of manslaughter may be appropriate when A) consent is given by a sober person and B) a BDSM top has a cutting tool on their person and despite these two conditions being met, someone unintentionally dies.

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/25/2013 6:33:54 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV


I disagree with the legal decision to use the charge of manslaughter instead of murder, for three reasons:

1) Consent is not present when substance use is present.
2) Not having a safety knife in an accessible pocket (a BDSM practice) is proof that this wasn't BDSM.
3) Charges of manslaughter may be appropriate when A) consent is given by a sober person and B) a BDSM top has a cutting tool on their person and despite these two conditions being met, someone unintentionally dies.




I'm sure when the judge realized there was no knife to cut the girls down and when he realizes this wasn't 'real' BDSM he will change his mind on the sentence!!

The problem is Becoming V, all the things you mention are 'our' rules and 'our' recommendations. Its not the law of a land. The judge will probably be more lenient with the sentence because they were intoxicated or and on substance.


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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/25/2013 6:45:46 AM   
MAINEiacMISTRESS


Posts: 1180
Joined: 9/12/2012
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This is a great example of WHY A DOMINANT NEEDS TO BE *RESPONSIBLE*.

This was not a game of just tying them up...the purpose was to limit breathing, therefore from the get-go this was a dangerous activity, and he should have had ALL precautions in place. The fact that this activity was PLANNED means he had ample time to make sure they were SAFE, yet he did not. I hope they throw the book at him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

@Kana, that article is wrong. I'll quote straight from the scientific article:

quote:


After having consumed a light dinner accompanied by a large
quantity of alcohol, two young women (SU and DE) and an
older Italian man went on to play an erotic game that included
bondage practices in an isolated, public location at about 4 am
that night. The two women, who remained dressed, without
either exposing their genitals or receiving sexual stimulation,
were tied to each other in a sort of pendulum so as to
counterbalance eachother, therebypracticinga Japanese erotic
figure (Shibari). The ropes were slung over metal tubes in the
basement of a local federal income tax building underground.
When one woman went down,the other one went up,thus causing
a feeling of suffocation thatwas considered sexually arousing.
While this gamewas being played,DEfainted (and lost urine),
which resulted in SUremaining suspended and in both her and
SU being asphyxiated for an extended period of time. As the
man involved in the game did not have a knife at hand, hewas
unable to cut the rope immediately. When he did manage to
release the two women, DE was dead and SU was in critical
condition.Themanwas arrestedand is presently awaitingtrial.


DE (the deceased victim) was clearly the one that fainted (first).


(in reply to Guilty1974)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/25/2013 7:22:41 AM   
BecomingV


Posts: 916
Joined: 11/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV


I disagree with the legal decision to use the charge of manslaughter instead of murder, for three reasons:

1) Consent is not present when substance use is present.
2) Not having a safety knife in an accessible pocket (a BDSM practice) is proof that this wasn't BDSM.
3) Charges of manslaughter may be appropriate when A) consent is given by a sober person and B) a BDSM top has a cutting tool on their person and despite these two conditions being met, someone unintentionally dies.




I'm sure when the judge realized there was no knife to cut the girls down and when he realizes this wasn't 'real' BDSM he will change his mind on the sentence!!

The problem is Becoming V, all the things you mention are 'our' rules and 'our' recommendations. Its not the law of a land. The judge will probably be more lenient with the sentence because they were intoxicated or and on substance.



And that's my point. If people call what they are doing, "BDSM" when they are acting without consent... it's important for us to separate ourselves from them. Invoking the BDSM label for something as irresponsible as what this guy did makes us both misunderstood and reviled. We play dangerous games, at times, but consent and responsibility are in play in BDSM.

He did have a cutting tool, but it was too far away for him to get to it. He was fully aware that he and the women were intoxicated. This is not cause for a lesser charge or lesser sentence.

As for the vanilla law of the land... consent is deemed absent when intoxicants are present. We also have laws against engaging in risky behaviors while intoxicated. For instance, a professional car racer shows up for a race under the influence of something: has an accident and maims or kills others. You bet there are crimes in that situation.

In our local community, there are some people who do engage in play while drunk. They know they are taking an extreme risk and choose to do it anyway. If damage occurs, they are going to prison, or worse, they may die. Overwhelmingly, these people are not included, invited or respected, because laws aside, there is no trust or responsibility in those choices, so they are not considered to be Doms or Dommes. They are just immature, selfish morons who like kink and hate people.

However, you are right that it is likely the sentence will go lighter because of substance use - which really makes no sense to me at all. Anyone who's ever gotten crazy drunk can attest to the fact that they may get louder or sloppy or even more aggressive, but they don't suddenly develop an attraction to non-adults, or non-humans. (American Pie, aside)

This was three irresponsible people, but as a top, this one's on him!

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/25/2013 11:30:26 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

And that's my point. If people call what they are doing, "BDSM" when they are acting without consent... it's important for us to separate ourselves from them. Invoking the BDSM label for something as irresponsible as what this guy did makes us both misunderstood and reviled. We play dangerous games, at times, but consent and responsibility are in play in BDSM.


Now this I agree with. I suspect most of the BDSM community will distance themselves from such a scenario. It was though, seen and publicised as a BDSM act that went dreadfully wrong.

quote:


He did have a cutting tool, but it was too far away for him to get to it. He was fully aware that he and the women were intoxicated. This is not cause for a lesser charge or lesser sentence.

People do foolhardy things when they are intoxicated and this threesome were no exception. The man in question didn't pour alcohol down these women's throats (as far as we know), they all drank willingly. They all got drunk together and in their intoxicated state they all thought they were safe.

The law will take leniency on the accused in such circumstances. What happened to them wasn't intentional and therefore its manslaughter and not murder.

quote:


As for the vanilla law of the land... consent is deemed absent when intoxicants are present. We also have laws against engaging in risky behaviors while intoxicated. For instance, a professional car racer shows up for a race under the influence of something: has an accident and maims or kills others. You bet there are crimes in that situation.


There is no such thing as consent to BDSM. You can not consent to someone else inflicting pain on you and in this case, you can't consent to someone tying you up and putting a rope round your neck.
Any reference to BDSM and consent in that context you speak of are irrelevant in a court of law and therefore its most likely it will be listed as an unlawful death and someone will be prosecuted for manslaughter.



quote:


In our local community, there are some people who do engage in play while drunk. They know they are taking an extreme risk and choose to do it anyway. If damage occurs, they are going to prison, or worse, they may die. Overwhelmingly, these people are not included, invited or respected, because laws aside, there is no trust or responsibility in those choices, so they are not considered to be Doms or Dommes. They are just immature, selfish morons who like kink and hate people.


One of the reasons we have pulled away from much of the UK BDSM scene is the amount of substance being handed around in these clubs. When you look in every other subs eyes and know they are dilated because they are on 'E's' then its time to get out. Like you, we have some favoured people who can resist alcohol and resist substance and those are the people we consider safe.

quote:


However, you are right that it is likely the sentence will go lighter because of substance use - which really makes no sense to me at all. Anyone who's ever gotten crazy drunk can attest to the fact that they may get louder or sloppy or even more aggressive, but they don't suddenly develop an attraction to non-adults, or non-humans. (American Pie, aside)

This was three irresponsible people, but as a top, this one's on him!


I disagree and I disagree because all we have are a few words in a cheap tabloid. Without a third party being witness to what happened that day or unless we could sit in at the trial and hear the full story, how can we put direct blame on anyone?

How do we even know he was the top? perhaps they were two dominant women having fun with a sub male and for all we know, they may of insisted he tied himself to them.


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/25/2013 12:01:08 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB



People do foolhardy things when they are intoxicated and this threesome were no exception. The man in question didn't pour alcohol down these women's throats (as far as we know), they all drank willingly. They all got drunk together and in their intoxicated state they all thought they were safe.

The law will take leniency on the accused in such circumstances. What happened to them wasn't intentional and therefore its manslaughter and not murder.





When people make the choice to drink and drive and then accidentally kill someone in the process, the law is not especially lenient.
There was no conscious intention to cause the death but dead is still dead.

If the driver has passengers, who were intoxicated and they die, the law doesn't see that as being different from the driver killing someone else.

One of the unfortunate effects alcohol does is regarding the person's judgement regarding themselves and their abilities.
It alters how they self-perceive.

People rarely see themselves as impaired.
They don't notice that their inhibitions are lowed and the volume of their speech has gotten much louder.
They do not see themselves as they truly are.





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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/25/2013 12:15:17 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB



People do foolhardy things when they are intoxicated and this threesome were no exception. The man in question didn't pour alcohol down these women's throats (as far as we know), they all drank willingly. They all got drunk together and in their intoxicated state they all thought they were safe.

The law will take leniency on the accused in such circumstances. What happened to them wasn't intentional and therefore its manslaughter and not murder.





When people make the choice to drink and drive and then accidentally kill someone in the process, the law is not especially lenient.
There was no conscious intention to cause the death but dead is still dead.

When someone drinks and drives they are breaking the law and if caught will probably lose their licence. If they kill someone whilst intoxicated they will be up on a charge of manslaughter (I think it should be murder). When a passenger gets in the car with a driver and that passenger suspects the driver is intoxicated but still decides to go for the ride, that passenger is an accomplice to the crime. A pedestrian or other driver killed by a drunk driver can not be compared to the people in this topic
quote:


If the driver has passengers, who were intoxicated and they die, the law doesn't see that as being different from the driver killing someone else.

No it doesn't but like I said, any adult getting in the car with a drunk driver, especially if they are also drunk are hardly an innocent party.
quote:


People rarely see themselves as impaired.
They don't notice that their inhibitions are lowed and the volume of their speech has gotten much louder.
They do not see themselves as they truly are.

Exactly.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/26/2013 4:54:37 AM   
BecomingV


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The NCSF - National Coalition for Sexual Freedom has issued its "Consent Statement."

https://www.ncsfreedom.org/

On page 3, under the heading, "Consent is given by an adult with a sound mind," the section ends with this sentence:

"Finally, in order to give consent, you must be in a clear-headed state of mind, not impaired by alcohol, prescription medicine or recreational drugs."

Considering that the NCSF exists to fight for rights in the criminal justice system, and this ^^^ is the stance on ethical responsibility, it appears that regardless of laws, the majority of the BDSM community would not support the people involved in this situation.

IMO, injury and/or death, caused by an intoxicated person, should be met with the harshest of consequences, whether vanilla or BDSM related. Drunk drivers, for instance, are overwhelmingly charged with manslaughter. If I ruled the world, this would not be! Why? It's an avoidable crime, based on selfish, egotistical and sometimes, greedy motives. If heading out to drink, have a few less and pay for the cab. Arrange for a designated driver. Or, sleep over at the host's home. There are choices present.

In BDSM, accidents can, and do, happen. I do not give support, sympathy or understanding to those who flaunt the risks. I'm not a lawyer but I feel competent to judge reckless disregard for human life, which is how I see this incident. We all know that juries don't get the full story anyway - facts are manipulated, hidden and discarded on technicalities, so I reject the notion that only a jury can know what really happened. The article states that the male top talked about his difficulty getting to his knife because he chose to tie himself up, too, out of reach of the knife. If the article mis-quoted him, well, that's another story. As stated, I hold the top responsible.

The main reason I prefer the company of the rope crowd, above all other segments of the BDSM community, is because the risks are so high, there is an understanding that responsibility for caring for human life is more than a sentiment. Caring means getting educated, getting trained (practice while a mentor gives feedback) and accepting responsibility for the rope bottom. The rope bottoms take responsibility for communicating honestly about what they are experiencing, about the physical condition of their bodies and about their mental state during any point of play. It's not blind trust... it's earned trust in action. And, it's very, very fun.

This is a very different scenario than the one presented in the articles. What he calls BDSM gone wrong - I call BS!

ETA - I hit reply to MariaB but this comment is meant as a general, fast reply.

< Message edited by BecomingV -- 11/26/2013 5:17:38 AM >

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/26/2013 7:31:46 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

1) Consent is not present when substance use is present.
2) Not having a safety knife in an accessible pocket (a BDSM practice) is proof that this wasn't BDSM.


That's nonsense. Presents of intoxicants and neglecting to take proper safety precautions doesn't suddenly mean it's abuse or that it's not BDSM anymore, any more than two friends going scuba diving/rock climbing/horse riding/roofing a house/fill in dangerous activity of choice drunk and without proper safety equipment suddenly aren't consensually engaging with each other, or aren't doing the activity they are doing because they're choosing to be idiots.

Being an idiot doesn't make it abuse. Nor does it make it not BDSM.

Like it or not, but BDSM isn't an activity magically excluded from having people act like dumbasses and getting themselves accidentally killed.

An no, that's not the same as a professional race car driver showing up drunk, as a professional race car driver isn't allowed to drive drunk and has professional guidelines to follow. There is no law against people being drunk while playing around with rope, and as such, the fact that the Top was drunk is a mediating circumstance (as in, because his judgement was impaired it's more likely he wasn't hurting them on purpose) instead of an circumstance that increases culpability, like when somebody knowingly breaks the law by getting behind the wheel of a car drunk and then accidentally kills somebody.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 11/26/2013 7:41:35 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/26/2013 10:07:06 AM   
MariaB


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

The main reason I prefer the company of the rope crowd, above all other segments of the BDSM community, is because the risks are so high, there is an understanding that responsibility for caring for human life is more than a sentiment. Caring means getting educated, getting trained (practice while a mentor gives feedback) and accepting responsibility for the rope bottom. The rope bottoms take responsibility for communicating honestly about what they are experiencing, about the physical condition of their bodies and about their mental state during any point of play. It's not blind trust... it's earned trust in action. And, it's very, very fun.



Sorry but you just hit a nerve.

Getting educated by who?, getting trained by who?

I have peripheral neuropathy caused by a box tie and that box tie was done by one of the most celebrated Kinbaku Masters the west has ever had the pleasure of knowing. Even in all his fame and glory, he didn't understand the implications of certain positions, certain ties. I mean come on, the man had tied hundreds, maybe even thousands of women as well as teaching hundreds to do like he does.

I am on permanent pain medication and unfortunately this neuropathy, caused through trauma is spreading throughout my body. My lungs go into spasm on a regular basis and I can't tell you how many times I've been rushed to hospital. Eventually I will be registered disabled and all because I trusted some top rope Master to use me as his rope bunny.

One thing thats helped me through this is dedicating a lot of time and patience to 'ropes' particularly suspension. My husbands a rigger and as well as that is involved in mountain rescue. I/we are both serious climbers, though how long I can continue, I don't know. We have lived and worked with rope, we know rope and how to properly rig inside out and I'm going to tell you for nothing that many groups tying, binding and suspending people don't understand jack shit about the potential dangers. The incident pit for suspension is far bigger than anything else we see within the BDSM world not because its high risk (it really isn't when done properly) but because people are learning rope skills from the ignorant and when I say ignorant, I mean, people who don't know or understand themselves about the long term potential damage they can do to the nervous system

These guys don't need to be drunk. Its pure naivety and putting too much trust in others that bring about rope accidents and injuries. Is that proper BDSM? well of course it is!!


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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/27/2013 4:45:36 AM   
angelikaJ


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In this country, if you kill someone while under the influence you can be charged with "Vehicular Homicide", and yes, it is a murder charge.
How is this any different?

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/27/2013 6:42:52 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

In this country, if you kill someone while under the influence you can be charged with "Vehicular Homicide", and yes, it is a murder charge.
How is this any different?


Well for a start angelika, he wasn't driving a vehicle and the difference is, if you get behind a driving wheel whilst under the influence of alcohol, you know you are breaking the law. Its an obvious law because a vehicle becomes a lethal weapon when not used with due care and attention.

There is no such law for playing sexual games whilst under the influence of alcohol, in fact, if a person is willing to do an unlawful act (BDSM in some states and countries) with another and that person gets hurt, that person will normally be accountable for their own actions. In this case at least one of the women can't be held accountable.

I'm puzzled as to why some people want to bring out the hang man noose (figure of speech btw!). This was a consensual act between three people that went tragically wrong. Three foolish people who thought a couple of drinks wouldn't hurt and three drunk people that believed they were safe and sober enough once under the influence.

This was not a drunk driver hitting a pedestrian. The comparison baffles me.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 11/27/2013 4:54:56 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
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It isn't murder because it wasn't premeditated. It was manslaughter because it was not intended.

And instead of arguing over whether or not the first thing to do is have a knife, the first rule ought to be never to tie a rope around your neck.

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