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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 6:22:54 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


I see that you think his rights are more important than mine.
I also see that you will cling to any excuse that lets you not fight back and put those who will in a bad light.
I also note that you have bent over backwards to ignore that I carry a sword cane as that would get in the way of pretending I was a "gun asshole".
You also failed to address the fact that your fear of defending yourself teaches him he is cool and can get away with anything he wants to do.



I seem to recall you said you always carry a gun because your boss told you too ?



No I said I started carrying because my boss told me too.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 8:33:54 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		I scanned some of the replies, and am as always amazed at people who think they have the right, or at least want the right, to shoot people who are committing relatively minor crimes against property. Two questions.

1. Should I (or you) have more right to shoot people than the cops?
2. Should cops be allowed to shoot purse snatchers?


_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 8:37:14 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I scanned some of the replies, and am as always amazed at people who think they have the right, or at least want the right, to shoot people who are committing relatively minor crimes against property. Two questions.

1. Should I (or you) have more right to shoot people than the cops?
2. Should cops be allowed to shoot purse snatchers?


1 Of course not but the moment they pull a weapon they are no longer committing a minor property crime.
2 They are not.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 8:52:29 PM   
DsBound


Posts: 268
Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I scanned some of the replies, and am as always amazed at people who think they have the right, or at least want the right, to shoot people who are committing relatively minor crimes against property. Two questions.

1. Should I (or you) have more right to shoot people than the cops?
2. Should cops be allowed to shoot purse snatchers?



1. Just as much, if not more. They are paid employees and are often called in as a 3rd party, after the fact. With that said, I think comparing the police is dangerous, seems many of them think they are above the law anyway.
2. No.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 5:13:20 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just reading all the ” I’ll kill for what is MINE” posts disgusts me. I hate thieves just as much as the next man but I happen to believe the life of a thief is just as important and precious as the life of an unborn child. I am not a hypocrite.


I haven't gotten through the entire thread yet, but I think this point is what's been on my mind as I read through it. I actually find it difficult to place much value on the life of a thief.

I get the other points being made here, that we're a civilized society which respects the rule of law, and that the individual citizen can not act as judge, jury, and executioner. But I see that as more a statement about ourselves, that we are civilized and law-abiding, and that we won't lower ourselves to the level of criminals. It's more about the kind of society we want to live in.

But I can also see that it's a fair question to ask whether that view is too naive and impractical when dealing with hardened criminals who are wont to violate every rule of civilized society. To some degree, I think that our culture has also been influenced by Hollywood's version of the Old West and a certain affinity towards vigilante movies like Death Wish. Even though the "good guys" and "bad guys" may both be lawbreakers, we never had much trouble telling the difference between the two.

The reason why the Old West was so wild was because there really wasn't much law around. The Sheriff might have been quite some distance away, and the nearest judge several days away. People took matters into their own hands because they felt the law wasn't strong enough or able to deal with the problems they were facing. Some might feel the same way about society today, believing that criminals are either too coddled or otherwise not given enough discouragement to sway them from a life of crime.

Is society too soft on thievery? We may be tough when it comes to murder and other crimes of violence (or maybe not tough enough, depending on one's point of view). And we're certainly tough when it comes to narcotics and illegal drugs. But if someone is "just a thief," it's not considered quite so bad. Sure, society punishes thieves, but is the punishment strong enough to deter them?

It's not just "stuff." It's also the violation of people's privacy and their right to be safe in their own homes. The actual dollar value of the stuff is beside the point. It may not be the same thing as physically violating someone's body, but it comes pretty close. Could the law take a certain "heat of the moment" circumstance like that into consideration? If a person finds a burglar in their house and feels a sense of violation, do they go through a brief period of temporary insanity which may make them want to kill the person who is violating the sanctity of their domain, even if they're trying to get away? Can that be considered a mitigating circumstance?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 7:58:39 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		In fact, in WV (and I think most other places), "civilians" and cops have exactly the same legal access to lethal force save in the case of a fleeing felon the cop believes represents an immediate threat to the public that cannot otherwise be stopped.

My point, of course, is that almost no otherwise sane person wants to give cops the right to shoot fleeing purse snatchers, but many supposedly sane people herein profess their own willingness and/or right to shoot those who steal from them.

Thievery does not and should not carry the death penalty.

As an aside, I'm willing to bet that some of those who say they would shoot a person stealing their car, or burglarizing their car, have argued against the death penalty. It's bizarro world....

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DsBound)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 11:34:37 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

In fact, in WV (and I think most other places), "civilians" and cops have exactly the same legal access to lethal force save in the case of a fleeing felon the cop believes represents an immediate threat to the public that cannot otherwise be stopped.

My point, of course, is that almost no otherwise sane person wants to give cops the right to shoot fleeing purse snatchers, but many supposedly sane people herein profess their own willingness and/or right to shoot those who steal from them.

Thievery does not and should not carry the death penalty.

As an aside, I'm willing to bet that some of those who say they would shoot a person stealing their car, or burglarizing their car, have argued against the death penalty. It's bizarro world....

I will quote zonie63 because he said this so well.
It's not just "stuff." It's also the violation of people's privacy and their right to be safe in their own homes. The actual dollar value of the stuff is beside the point. It may not be the same thing as physically violating someone's body, but it comes pretty close.
end quote
As I pointed out before the moment they pull a weapon to enforce their thievery it move beyond mere stealing.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 11:45:47 AM   
DsBound


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Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

In fact, in WV (and I think most other places), "civilians" and cops have exactly the same legal access to lethal force save in the case of a fleeing felon the cop believes represents an immediate threat to the public that cannot otherwise be stopped.

My point, of course, is that almost no otherwise sane person wants to give cops the right to shoot fleeing purse snatchers, but many supposedly sane people herein profess their own willingness and/or right to shoot those who steal from them.

Thievery does not and should not carry the death penalty.

As an aside, I'm willing to bet that some of those who say they would shoot a person stealing their car, or burglarizing their car, have argued against the death penalty. It's bizarro world....


I think the majority of law abiding gun owners, are sane or as sane as one can be. I do not believe gun owners, in general are trigger happy and Id say the majority respect life.

Hindsight is 20/20. It goes both ways when it comes to home intrusion. Are they simply going to steal, ot are they going to decide to physically harm you. Youre not going to debate this person... theyve already made a choice to harm your property, their intent is evident.

Out on the street, a purse snatcher who takes off down the street is a different story, the threat is gone... with that said, if the VICTIM fears for their life brcause they are being confronted and chooses to protect themself, thats their right.

Its easy to sit back and say what you would or wouldnt do in the comfort of your home.


(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 12:19:25 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

I actually find it difficult to place much value on the life of a thief.


I don't either...although I do believe there are reasons to steal that are understandable anyway. The value I am determining is my life. If I kill because someone stole something from me I am lessening my worth as a human being...and I do care about that.

quote:

But I can also see that it's a fair question to ask whether that view is too naive and impractical when dealing with hardened criminals who are wont to violate every rule of civilized society


I don't expect every criminal to bring his rap sheet and present it to me before I am robbed...so you have no idea if the thief is a poor slob hung up on heroin, maybe your son or daughter, or the so called hardened criminal.

quote:

It's not just "stuff." It's also the violation of people's privacy and their right to be safe in their own homes. The actual dollar value of the stuff is beside the point.


When a human life is at stake... stuff...is just stuff... no matter how you look at it and killing is always the point.

If you reread my first post you will see I am not against self defense if all else fails...but I will not, as many here will, shoot to kill when that can be avoided reasonably.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/30/2013 12:24:14 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 12:36:08 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I actually find it difficult to place much value on the life of a thief.


I don't either...although I do believe there are reasons to steal that are understandable anyway. The value I am determining is my life. If I kill because someone stole something from me I am lessening my worth as a human being...and I do care about that.

quote:

But I can also see that it's a fair question to ask whether that view is too naive and impractical when dealing with hardened criminals who are wont to violate every rule of civilized society


I don't expect every criminal to bring his rap sheet and present it to me before I am robbed...so you have no idea if the thief is a poor slob hung up on heroin, maybe your son or daughter, or the so called hardened criminal.

quote:

It's not just "stuff." It's also the violation of people's privacy and their right to be safe in their own homes. The actual dollar value of the stuff is beside the point.


When a human life is at stake... stuff...is just stuff... no matter how you look at it and killing is always the point.

If you reread my first post you will see I am not against self defense if all else fails...but I will not, as many here will, shoot to kill when that can be avoided reasonably.

Butch

Why do you give them your stuff?
Not because you don't want to kill them but because you don't want them to kill you.
Once they enter violence into the equation means you are now responding to their threat of violenece .
At this point it is not their life against your stuff.
It is your life against their life.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 1:56:23 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I actually find it difficult to place much value on the life of a thief.


I don't either...although I do believe there are reasons to steal that are understandable anyway. The value I am determining is my life. If I kill because someone stole something from me I am lessening my worth as a human being...and I do care about that.

quote:

But I can also see that it's a fair question to ask whether that view is too naive and impractical when dealing with hardened criminals who are wont to violate every rule of civilized society


I don't expect every criminal to bring his rap sheet and present it to me before I am robbed...so you have no idea if the thief is a poor slob hung up on heroin, maybe your son or daughter, or the so called hardened criminal.

quote:

It's not just "stuff." It's also the violation of people's privacy and their right to be safe in their own homes. The actual dollar value of the stuff is beside the point.


When a human life is at stake... stuff...is just stuff... no matter how you look at it and killing is always the point.

If you reread my first post you will see I am not against self defense if all else fails...but I will not, as many here will, shoot to kill when that can be avoided reasonably.

Butch

Why do you give them your stuff?
Not because you don't want to kill them but because you don't want them to kill you.
Once they enter violence into the equation means you are now responding to their threat of violenece .
At this point it is not their life against your stuff.
It is your life against their life.


There are person that find disturbing for themself the act of taking a life no matter what are the reasons or what the law n the place they are permits, it depends on the moral values and the kind of society one has been raised in and on personal sensibility, this can be very different from place to place and person to person.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 2:01:31 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		You see you and I have different ideas on when violence and how much justifies deadly force. My idea is only if unavoidable and after every attempt to disengauge from the conflict has failed. Even then I will use as little force as I can.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 2:54:25 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You see you and I have different ideas on when violence and how much justifies deadly force. My idea is only if unavoidable and after every attempt to disengauge from the conflict has failed. Even then I will use as little force as I can.

Butch

So as long as they say they won't kill you, you have an excuse not to fight back and to strengthen their hold on the street.
Once they pull a weapon cooperation is depending on their good graces.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 9/30/2013 3:00:06 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 4:06:57 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You see you and I have different ideas on when violence and how much justifies deadly force. My idea is only if unavoidable and after every attempt to disengauge from the conflict has failed. Even then I will use as little force as I can.

Butch

So as long as they say they won't kill you, you have an excuse not to fight back and to strengthen their hold on the street.
Once they pull a weapon cooperation is depending on their good graces.


if in a developped country, weaken the hold of crime on the street is a private citizen matter, over the duty of testify in a court, this means there is something wrong way upstream.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 9/30/2013 4:08:47 PM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 4:24:56 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You see you and I have different ideas on when violence and how much justifies deadly force. My idea is only if unavoidable and after every attempt to disengauge from the conflict has failed. Even then I will use as little force as I can.

Butch

So as long as they say they won't kill you, you have an excuse not to fight back and to strengthen their hold on the street.
Once they pull a weapon cooperation is depending on their good graces.


if in a developped country, weaken the hold of crime on the street is a private citizen matter, over the duty of testify in a court, this means there is something wrong way upstream.

Do you realize how difficult it is to catch and convict street criminals?
Do you understand how many victims they will have before they are caught.
In any society a citizen has a duty to help protect the society, subjects not so much.
You fail to realize that I and virtually everyone advocating self defense would be delighted if upon seeing our intent to resist the thugs surrendered and gave us the opportunity to testify against them.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 4:37:07 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		Do you realize there are many places on this earth where people knows what "criminal hold on te streat" means just through TV when they watch documentaries on socially deprived areas? Do you theink there are cops at any corner there?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 4:46:35 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

I actually find it difficult to place much value on the life of a thief.

This made me think of a favorite scripture passage: Luke 23: 39-43.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 4:54:04 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Do you realize how difficult it is to catch and convict street criminals?
Do you understand how many victims they will have before they are caught.
In any society a citizen has a duty to help protect the society, subjects not so much.
You fail to realize that I and virtually everyone advocating self defense would be delighted if upon seeing our intent to resist the thugs surrendered and gave us the opportunity to testify against them.



There you go with the "subjects" bullshit again.



(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 4:59:40 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

Do you realize there are many places on this earth where people knows what "criminal hold on te streat" means just through TV when they watch documentaries on socially deprived areas? Do you theink there are cops at any corner there?

To the extent such places exist. Riyadh for example, they are not part of this conversation.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/30/2013 5:01:29 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Do you realize how difficult it is to catch and convict street criminals?
Do you understand how many victims they will have before they are caught.
In any society a citizen has a duty to help protect the society, subjects not so much.
You fail to realize that I and virtually everyone advocating self defense would be delighted if upon seeing our intent to resist the thugs surrendered and gave us the opportunity to testify against them.



There you go with the "subjects" bullshit again.




You are a British subject, I am an American citizen.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 140
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