RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment ***

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (Full Version)

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lovmuffin -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 1:25:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer What I've done is said that I find an aspect of American culture disgusting. Looks can be deceiving. Other than debating anonymously on the Internet or defending our constitutional rights from crooked politicians, gun owners don't just go around beating their chests. Except for a select few people, no one knows I own firearms or if I'm packing one. If you were to meet me on the street, a restaurant / bar or some such place you wouldn't know anything to be discusted about, after all, everyone loves me, thus the name Lovmuffin.[8D] A great many of our law enforcement are part of that gun culture you seem to find so disgusting. I suppose you would find them disgusting too ? I would venture to say that if you ever had the opportunity to visit a target range and shoot various firearms, you would do it, at least for the sake of curiosity if for no other reason. I've known several people, including one from the UK who I took to a target range, with a similar view as yours and they took that plunge. They reviewed gun safety, went to the range and now they're hooked and part of that disgusting gun culture.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 1:47:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer What I've done is said that I find an aspect of American culture disgusting. Looks can be deceiving. Other than debating anonymously on the Internet or defending our constitutional rights from crooked politicians, gun owners don't just go around beating their chests. Except for a select few people, no one knows I own firearms or if I'm packing one. If you were to meet me on the street, a restaurant / bar or some such place you wouldn't know anything to be discusted about, after all, everyone loves me, thus the name Lovmuffin.[8D] A great many of our law enforcement are part of that gun culture you seem to find so disgusting. I suppose you would find them disgusting too ? I would venture to say that if you ever had the opportunity to visit a target range and shoot various firearms, you would do it, at least for the sake of curiosity if for no other reason. I've known several people, including one from the UK who I took to a target range, with a similar view as yours who took that plunge. They reviewed gun safety, went to the range and now they're hooked and part of that disgusting gun culture. That must be one of very few. When I lived in the US, I spoke to quite a few cops I met in NC and FL and every single one of them said, without hesitation, that they would not carry if their job gave them a choice. They all loved the idea that us Brits didn't have to contend with street guns as a rule. I have been on a range, shot a few rounds. Wasn't converted at all. Quite the contrary, I am firmly against firearms being carried in the streets. Having them at home, locked away, to use as a deterent in some areas of wildlife; probably. I'm not advocating a complete ban, but guns on the streets is an absolute no-no for me.

lovmuffin -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 2:24:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomwarf That must be one of very few. I will admit that the UK guy was a friend and is here on a more or less permanent basis. He showed an interest and wanted to go. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomwarf1 When I lived in the US, I spoke to quite a few cops I met in NC and FL and every single one of them said, without hesitation, that they would not carry if their job gave them a choice. They all loved the idea that us Brits didn't have to contend with street guns as a rule. I could see it if you had said "very few" or "one or two" but "quite a few" ??? Pardon me if I take that with a great deal of skepticism. If you could wave a magic wand to eliminate guns from the hands of street criminals, who knows, cops might go for it though I seriously doubt it. quote: ORIGINAL: I have been on a range, shot a few rounds. Wasn't converted at all. While I can take your word for that, perhaps whoever it was that took you to the range might have been less than enthusiastic about the whole thing too.

stef -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 2:38:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 When I lived in the US, I spoke to quite a few cops I met in NC and FL and every single one of them said, without hesitation, that they would not carry if their job gave them a choice. Yeah, I think this is likely about as truthful as your fanciful marksmanship claims.

Kirata -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 2:44:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stef quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 When I lived in the US, I spoke to quite a few cops I met in NC and FL and every single one of them said, without hesitation, that they would not carry if their job gave them a choice. Yeah, I think this is likely about as truthful as your fanciful marksmanship claims. Well speaking for Florida, at least, I think you're giving him way too much credit. [:)] Florida Sheriffs Association Proclamation 2013-1 K.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 2:47:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomwarf That must be one of very few. I will admit that the UK guy was a friend and is here on a more or less permanent basis. He showed an interest and wanted to go. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomwarf1 When I lived in the US, I spoke to quite a few cops I met in NC and FL and every single one of them said, without hesitation, that they would not carry if their job gave them a choice. They all loved the idea that us Brits didn't have to contend with street guns as a rule. I could see it if you had said "very few" or "one or two" but "quite a few" ??? Pardon me if I take that with a great deal of skepticism. If you could wave a magic wand to eliminate guns from the hands of street criminals, who knows, cops might go for it though I seriously doubt it. I encountered about a dozen in NC and I was only there for a very short time (only a month). My friend there is a 'nam Vet and proud of his guns. In FL, the people I was staying with were very friendly with lawyers and many of those friends were in the police force. I also used to chat a lot with more than half a dozen bike cops and their buddies in cars because they were quite amused by my Brit accent. So.... maybe 3 dozen in all - scattered throughout Raliegh, Jax and Tampa?? That's certainly more than one or two. quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: I have been on a range, shot a few rounds. Wasn't converted at all. While I can take your word for that, perhaps whoever it was that took you to the range might have been less than enthusiastic about the whole thing too. It was a guy that run/owned the range so I doubt you could describe him as 'less than enthusiastic' about guns. At the time, I wanted to learn more about guns and I wanted to go hunting (eventually) so I was quite looking forward to handling more guns. But, after seeing them, handling some, and the general crap I have seen on the News channels over the years, I have come to the conclusion that our government was quite right in abolishing guns from our streets. I have even lost the inclination to go hunting or target shooting. I have flipped the other way from being positive about guns to finding them very distasteful and unnecessary. This is where some Americans just can't grasp the fact that there are a fair number of us in gun-free countries that really don't want a gun, have no use for a gun (in our culture or lifestyle), and find the mere thought of seeing a gun in the streets severely abhorrent. Go hunting or target shooting by all means. But don't allow them in the streets.

BamaD -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 2:48:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer What I've done is said that I find an aspect of American culture disgusting. Looks can be deceiving. Other than debating anonymously on the Internet or defending our constitutional rights from crooked politicians, gun owners don't just go around beating their chests. Except for a select few people, no one knows I own firearms or if I'm packing one. If you were to meet me on the street, a restaurant / bar or some such place you wouldn't know anything to be discusted about, after all, everyone loves me, thus the name Lovmuffin.[8D] A great many of our law enforcement are part of that gun culture you seem to find so disgusting. I suppose you would find them disgusting too ? I would venture to say that if you ever had the opportunity to visit a target range and shoot various firearms, you would do it, at least for the sake of curiosity if for no other reason. I've known several people, including one from the UK who I took to a target range, with a similar view as yours who took that plunge. They reviewed gun safety, went to the range and now they're hooked and part of that disgusting gun culture. That must be one of very few. When I lived in the US, I spoke to quite a few cops I met in NC and FL and every single one of them said, without hesitation, that they would not carry if their job gave them a choice. They all loved the idea that us Brits didn't have to contend with street guns as a rule. I have been on a range, shot a few rounds. Wasn't converted at all. Quite the contrary, I am firmly against firearms being carried in the streets. Having them at home, locked away, to use as a deterent in some areas of wildlife; probably. I'm not advocating a complete ban, but guns on the streets is an absolute no-no for me. Funny, I grew up in a police family and later worked for our sheriffs office and have yet to meet a cop who didn't believe in citizen's right to carry. The Sheriff's view was "I like the idea that the bad guys don't know where it is coming from"

BamaD -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 2:51:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: freedomwarf That must be one of very few. I will admit that the UK guy was a friend and is here on a more or less permanent basis. He showed an interest and wanted to go. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomwarf1 When I lived in the US, I spoke to quite a few cops I met in NC and FL and every single one of them said, without hesitation, that they would not carry if their job gave them a choice. They all loved the idea that us Brits didn't have to contend with street guns as a rule. I could see it if you had said "very few" or "one or two" but "quite a few" ??? Pardon me if I take that with a great deal of skepticism. If you could wave a magic wand to eliminate guns from the hands of street criminals, who knows, cops might go for it though I seriously doubt it. I encountered about a dozen in NC and I was only there for a very short time (only a month). My friend there is a 'nam Vet and proud of his guns. In FL, the people I was staying with were very friendly with lawyers and many of those friends were in the police force. I also used to chat a lot with more than half a dozen bike cops and their buddies in cars because they were quite amused by my Brit accent. So.... maybe 3 dozen in all - scattered throughout Raliegh, Jax and Tampa?? That's certainly more than one or two. quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: I have been on a range, shot a few rounds. Wasn't converted at all. While I can take your word for that, perhaps whoever it was that took you to the range might have been less than enthusiastic about the whole thing too. It was a guy that run/owned the range so I doubt you could describe him as 'less than enthusiastic' about guns. At the time, I wanted to learn more about guns and I wanted to go hunting (eventually) so I was quite looking forward to handling more guns. But, after seeing them, handling some, and the general crap I have seen on the News channels over the years, I have come to the conclusion that our government was quite right in abolishing guns from our streets. I have even lost the inclination to go hunting or target shooting. I have flipped the other way from being positive about guns to finding them very distasteful and unnecessary. This is where some Americans just can't grasp the fact that there are a fair number of us in gun-free countries that really don't want a gun, have no use for a gun (in our culture or lifestyle), and find the mere thought of seeing a gun in the streets severely abhorrent. Go hunting or target shooting by all means. But don't allow them in the streets. Do what you want in your country. What we do is our concern.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 3:00:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Funny, I grew up in a police family and later worked for our sheriffs office and have yet to meet a cop who didn't believe in citizen's right to carry. The Sheriff's view was "I like the idea that the bad guys don't know where it is coming from" That might be true where you are and probably in a lot of the US. But I didn't find that sentiment where I frequented. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Do what you want in your country. What we do is our concern. And we will continue to watch the shootings and massacres on our news channels on a daily basis. We will also see the 'Oh woe is me, why did this happen?' comments from a lot of Americans. And there will be more debate on getting more guns and more health checks... yada yada yada. Simple solution: ban the carrying of guns on US streets. That won't impinge on any other activity as far as shooting or self-defense goes.

PeonForHer -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 3:17:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin A great many of our law enforcement are part of that gun culture you seem to find so disgusting. I suppose you would find them disgusting too ? I would venture to say that if you ever had the opportunity to visit a target range and shoot various firearms, you would do it, at least for the sake of curiosity if for no other reason. I've known several people, including one from the UK who I took to a target range, with a similar view as yours and they took that plunge. They reviewed gun safety, went to the range and now they're hooked and part of that disgusting gun culture. OK, I find myself relenting a bit because at least some Americans here really do seem to be taking this personally rather than just pretending to take it personally. For me, people are born into a culture and they would have to work in groups to change that culture. It's not a personal issue for me. This or that individual gun-user isn't a concern for me. Social attitudes towards guns, and political policies about them, are. Notwithstanding that, it's kind of revealing to me that you think I might get caught up in 'the gun culture' in the USA were I to visit a range there during a visit to your fine country. Why? If it's a sport: fine. I can understand the buzz of shooting at targets. But as I've often been told, guns aren't about fun for Americans, they're about self-defence. This, presumably, is a deadly serious business - given that it's about life and death. How can it be a fun thing one minute and life and death the next? Of all the things on CM's forums that I've found most alienating, it's those threads that start off earnestly discussing the rights and wrongs of guns and self-defence, then segue into people discussing their favourite firearms. This man loves the kick of his Smith and Wesson, that woman adores the curves of her Sig. These things kill people, yet some posters here talk about them like they're delightful and exquisite pieces of art on a par with Faberge eggs - and you can almost hear them salivating over their killing-power in passing. That I find loathsome. I will always find it loathsome. If certain Americans find their delicate sensitivities hurt by my feelings of disgust for it and want to whimper about Brit arrogance while invoking two or three hundred year old colonial history, they can fuck off and swivel on it. As for cops, gun ranges and my giving it a try should I ever visit the USA: no need. My father was in law enforcement here in the UK. He was a qualified marksman and, when my brothers and I were kids, used to take us to see the gun range at Imber Court, Surrey, where the Met Police used to practise (on the days when no-one was shooting, I should add). I was thrilled by that as a young kid. I used to collect the bullets from behind the targets. But then I grew up.

MasterCaneman -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 3:23:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Simple solution: ban the carrying of guns on US streets. That won't impinge on any other activity as far as shooting or self-defense goes. Great idea! As soon as you figure out how to make the criminals turn theirs in, I'll be happy to. Then we can all hold hands and sing Kumbaya and be all peaceful and law-abiding and stuff. I'm dying to know what your plan is for accomplishing this. Really, I am.

Kirata -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 3:24:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer OK, I find myself relenting a bit because at least some Americans here really do seem to be taking this personally... I was thrilled by that as a young kid... But then I grew up. I understand. You mean nothing personal. It's simply that the people you're addressing have the mentality of children. It must be very frustrating for you to be so misunderstood. Please accept my sympathies. K.

PeonForHer -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 3:35:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer OK, I find myself relenting a bit because at least some Americans here really do seem to be taking this personally... I was thrilled by that as a young kid... But then I grew up. I understand. You mean nothing personal. It's simply that the people you're addressing have the mentality of children. It must be very frustrating for you to be so misunderstood. Please accept my sympathies. K. I don't know why, but that comment just made me laugh out loud. [:D] You know, K, I really do think you'd fit in here in the UK. We really admire pomposity here - seriously. Just ditch the Stetson at the airport, that's all I'd suggest. [;)]

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 3:39:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Simple solution: ban the carrying of guns on US streets. That won't impinge on any other activity as far as shooting or self-defense goes. Great idea! As soon as you figure out how to make the criminals turn theirs in, I'll be happy to. Then we can all hold hands and sing Kumbaya and be all peaceful and law-abiding and stuff. I'm dying to know what your plan is for accomplishing this. Really, I am. Simple: the same way they did it over here. Just outlaw it. Sure, there were a huge number of people here that kicked-off about the new law. But every time anyone was seen in the streets with a gun, they were arrested and the weapons confiscated. It didn't matter if you were a criminal or a "law abiding and 'sensible' citizen", you got arrested and charged with posessing a firearm in a public place. If you couldn't prove you had the appropriate license for said firearm, it was destroyed. It didn't take long for the criminals to run out of places to steal them from and it became relatively more and more difficult to obtain one illegally. It won't happen overnight, but in a few short years you wouldn't be seeing guns on the streets. quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer OK, I find myself relenting a bit because at least some Americans here really do seem to be taking this personally... I was thrilled by that as a young kid... But then I grew up. I understand. You mean nothing personal. It's simply that the people you're addressing have the mentality of children. It must be very frustrating for you to be so misunderstood. Please accept my sympathies. K. Did you miss the sarcasm font K? Or was that a serious response?

Kirata -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 3:40:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer OK, I find myself relenting a bit because at least some Americans here really do seem to be taking this personally... I was thrilled by that as a young kid... But then I grew up. I understand. You mean nothing personal. It's simply that the people you're addressing have the mentality of children. It must be very frustrating for you to be so misunderstood. Please accept my sympathies. I don't know why, but that comment just made me laugh out loud. When I was a kid, I used to laugh when I got busted too. K.

PeonForHer -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 3:45:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata When I was a kid, I used to laugh when I got busted too. If I try really hard, I can just about imagine you laughing, you know. [;)]

Kirata -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 3:52:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer If I try really hard, I can just about imagine you laughing, you know. [;)] Heh. Now you're getting scary. [:D] K.

BamaD -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 5:19:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Funny, I grew up in a police family and later worked for our sheriffs office and have yet to meet a cop who didn't believe in citizen's right to carry. The Sheriff's view was "I like the idea that the bad guys don't know where it is coming from" That might be true where you are and probably in a lot of the US. But I didn't find that sentiment where I frequented. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Do what you want in your country. What we do is our concern. And we will continue to watch the shootings and massacres on our news channels on a daily basis. We will also see the 'Oh woe is me, why did this happen?' comments from a lot of Americans. And there will be more debate on getting more guns and more health checks... yada yada yada. Simple solution: ban the carrying of guns on US streets. That won't impinge on any other activity as far as shooting or self-defense goes. every time I have needed a firearm for self defense so yes it would imping on my right to self defense.

lovmuffin -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 6:08:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomwarf I encountered about a dozen in NC and I was only there for a very short time (only a month). My friend there is a 'nam Vet and proud of his guns. In FL, the people I was staying with were very friendly with lawyers and many of those friends were in the police force. I also used to chat a lot with more than half a dozen bike cops and their buddies in cars because they were quite amused by my Brit accent. So.... maybe 3 dozen in all - scattered throughout Raliegh, Jax and Tampa?? That's certainly more than one or two. Now that you've doubled down on that it's even less believable. There are of course cops, mostly chiefs and command officers but not so much in the rank and file, and mostly in the big cities and towns who favor stricter gun controls. But out of all the police officers I know or have ever talked to, whether we had stricter gun control or not, none of them would ever favor going out on the street unarmed under any circumstance. To be honest though, as far as I can remember, I've never had that exact conversation but there is no way I could ever believe it to be the case.

Just0Us0Two -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (10/5/2013 8:09:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I agree but I was responding to the claim that carrying in church somehow violates Christian views. Other religions and philosophies were not part of that exchange. McDs, Starbucks, other corps have gun policies, no guns signs, etc so why wouldn't a church/Priest also have a gun policy? Its up to the corp, or person in charge to decide this issue for their particular business/property, imo.. I dunno.. maybe God needs protecting?? Actually, after the uproar at Starbucks, McDs and Dunkin Donuts have announced that gun owners are welcome in their restaurants. They have announced that they will respect the local laws of whatever state their store resides. http://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2013/09/22/mcdonalds-and-dunkin-donuts-both-issue-statements-allowing-guns-in-stores-n1706393

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