RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment ***

RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 7:52:38 PM)
quote: In theory, that should cover the "nut jobs", as you put it. Not in any theoretical model that remotely resembles reality. Time and again these mentally unstable shooters were well known to be bat shit crazy to every one around them and yet they could still legally get guns. Take the recent Naval Yard shooter, it's not like the cops wanted to say good luck with that after Alexis told them that he was being followed and attacked by microwaves. Saddly laws have been crafted which prevented the police from getting him the help he so desperately needed (thanks republicans). So no the laws which have been crafted and continue to be crafted to make it unreasonably difficult to take guns away from the mentally ill "don't cover the 'nut jobs'". quote: Will there be unstable people that slip through cracks, probably... sadly, there are so many gun laws on the books that we should live in a crime free nation. There will never be a perfect system but some systems do work a great deal better than others. The name of the game is mitigation and not perfect absolute prevention. We have a system of laws in place which is social engineering the epidemic of mass shootings. We shouldn't ever expect to live in a crime free nation but we can do a whole lot better than this, after all every other first world country does.

GotSteel -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 7:56:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman Proof, please. I'm not a Republican by a long shot, but I'll be damned and assigned to hell having mine taken away on technicalities. Show me the proof. Which claim are you looking for validation on? The link I posted explains my comments about arms for the unstable.

BamaD -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 8:16:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: In theory, that should cover the "nut jobs", as you put it. Not in any theoretical model that remotely resembles reality. Time and again these mentally unstable shooters were well known to be bat shit crazy to every one around them and yet they could still legally get guns. Take the recent Naval Yard shooter, it's not like the cops wanted to say good luck with that after Alexis told them that he was being followed and attacked by microwaves. Saddly laws have been crafted which prevented the police from getting him the help he so desperately needed (thanks republicans). So no the laws which have been crafted and continue to be crafted to make it unreasonably difficult to take guns away from the mentally ill "don't cover the 'nut jobs'". quote: Will there be unstable people that slip through cracks, probably... sadly, there are so many gun laws on the books that we should live in a crime free nation. There will never be a perfect system but some systems do work a great deal better than others. The name of the game is mitigation and not perfect absolute prevention. We have a system of laws in place which is social engineering the epidemic of mass shootings. We shouldn't ever expect to live in a crime free nation but we can do a whole lot better than this, after all every other first world country does. So if we were all Democrats everything would be hunky dory?

DsBound -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 8:20:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: In theory, that should cover the "nut jobs", as you put it. Not in any theoretical model that remotely resembles reality. Time and again these mentally unstable shooters were well known to be bat shit crazy to every one around them and yet they could still legally get guns. Take the recent Naval Yard shooter, it's not like the cops wanted to say good luck with that after Alexis told them that he was being followed and attacked by microwaves. Saddly laws have been crafted which prevented the police from getting him the help he so desperately needed (thanks republicans). So no the laws which have been crafted and continue to be crafted to make it unreasonably difficult to take guns away from the mentally ill "don't cover the 'nut jobs'". quote: Will there be unstable people that slip through cracks, probably... sadly, there are so many gun laws on the books that we should live in a crime free nation. There will never be a perfect system but some systems do work a great deal better than others. The name of the game is mitigation and not perfect absolute prevention. We have a system of laws in place which is social engineering the epidemic of mass shootings. We shouldn't ever expect to live in a crime free nation but we can do a whole lot better than this, afterafternoon all every other first world country does. I was responding to the article you posted... which would lead some, without reading the bill, to believe the mentally ill are being issued licences. You cant put everyone into that category... I know people who've voluntarily entered hospitals for marijuana, food, alcohol... none of which I would deem mentally unstable. .

GotSteel -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 8:38:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD So if we were all Democrats everything would be hunky dory? I'm not a fan of one party systems but I do think we'd be a lot better off without a party that's so determined to keep the mentally ill out of treatment and armed to the teeth.

BamaD -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 8:41:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD So if we were all Democrats everything would be hunky dory? I'm not a fan of one party systems but I do think we'd be a lot better off without a party that's so determined to keep the mentally ill out of treatment and armed to the teeth. I don't think anyone wants to keep the mentally ill armed to the teeth. You have been reading to much "information" from handgun control.

DsBound -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 8:43:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD So if we were all Democrats everything would be hunky dory? I'm not a fan of one party systems but I do think we'd be a lot better off without a party that's so determined to keep the mentally ill out of treatment and armed to the teeth. [8\|]

GotSteel -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 8:47:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DsBound I was responding to the article you posted... which would lead some, without reading the bill, to believe the mentally ill are being issued licences. Yes that is exactly one of the things the bill accomplishes. More fruit loops with guns. quote: ORIGINAL: DsBound You cant put everyone into that category... I know people who've voluntarily entered hospitals for marijuana, food, alcohol... none of which I would deem mentally unstable. Once again and please read what I actually said this time: quote: I'm not claiming that every idea in the bill is unreasonable just it's arm the unstable nutbars provision.

Kirata -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 8:54:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Yes that is exactly one of the things the bill accomplishes. More fruit loops with guns... Once again and please read what I actually said this time: quote: I'm not claiming that every idea in the bill is unreasonable just it's arm the unstable nutbars provision. And what provision would that be, exactly? Cite it, please. Here's a link to the bill: HB 512 K.

DsBound -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 8:55:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: DsBound I was responding to the article you posted... which would lead some, without reading the bill, to believe the mentally ill are being issued licences. Yes that is exactly one of the things the bill accomplishes. More fruit loops with guns. quote: ORIGINAL: DsBound You cant put everyone into that category... I know people who've voluntarily entered hospitals for marijuana, food, alcohol... none of which I would deem mentally unstable. Once again and please read what I actually said this time: quote: I'm not claiming that every idea in the bill is unreasonable just it's arm the unstable nutbars provision. No disrespect, but did you read the bill?

Kirata -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 8:56:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DsBound No disrespect, but did you read the bill? You have a droll sense of humor. [:D] K.

DaddySatyr -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/29/2013 11:55:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DsBound quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel I'm not claiming that every idea in the bill is unreasonable just it's arm the unstable nutbars provision. ^^^^Thank you. In theory, that should cover the "nut jobs", as you put it. Will there be unstable people that slip through cracks, probably... sadly, there are so many gun laws on the books that we should live in a crime free nation. However, there are people that choose, for whatever reason, to violate the rights of others and those people are determined, non life respecting individuals. No amount of laws are going to change that. I think we're witnessing part of the issue, right here where I've highlighted in red. To a lefty, if you're mentally ill, you're worthy of compassion. However, if you're mentally ill and choose to own a gun, smoke, oppose abortion, or vote republican, you're a "nutbar". It's the moving goalposts of morality, again.

GotSteel -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/30/2013 5:44:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I think we're witnessing part of the issue, right here where I've highlighted in red. To a lefty, if you're mentally ill, you're worthy of compassion. However, if you're mentally ill and choose to own a gun, smoke, oppose abortion, or vote republican, you're a "nutbar". I don't think you should be calling me a lefty, I've voted Republican more times than Democrat. I'm just not a tea bagger, as an advocate of reality based solutions to problems I no longer see a home for myself in the Republican party. I do have compassion for those with mental illnesses, I think we should get them the treatment they need. I don't have any tolerance for mental illnesses pulling a trigger, there's no way in hell that should qualify as a well regulated militia. It poses a real demonstrable harm to our society and the movement to keep the crazy armed is going to get a lot more people killed and eventually make certain we all lose our guns. quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr It's the moving goalposts of morality, again. I don't think you even know what that means.

mnottertail -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/30/2013 6:51:42 AM)
So you can bring a gun into a bar and a house of worship down in georgia now, and thats good, because that is where they are most needed.

MasterCaneman -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/30/2013 7:54:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman Proof, please. I'm not a Republican by a long shot, but I'll be damned and assigned to hell having mine taken away on technicalities. Show me the proof. Which claim are you looking for validation on? The link I posted explains my comments about arms for the unstable. The proof that the Republican party has an agenda to keep, as you put it, "nutbars" armed. I know a lot of Republicans as well as Democrats, especially in my gun club. Some are fire-breathing borderline John Birchers, others are middle of the road guys. We have a group that ranges from those extremes all the way to super-Democrat, hippy liberal types who support NORML, abortion, and socialized medicine (hint, one of our members made national news because of the SAFE act recently-and he's a personal friend of mine). All of them are stable and even the most 'rabid' Republican member doesn't want mental defectives with guns. I said show me the proof-documentation, videos of speeches, anything that says unequivocally that "Republicans want to keep people with mental diseases armed". And no anecdotes or personal opinion pieces either. Hard core stand-up-in-court documentation.

Nosathro -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/30/2013 12:35:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Imported from another thread, discussing a family tragedy, and some thugs with badges. quote: ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking This smells of some gun-sociopath going off on the cops. Now here we have a charming example of why firearms discussion is so difficult. "Gun-sociopath." According to popular statistics, 80 million Americans own guns. Is that, in itself, a determining factor of mental illness? DNAV is perfectly happy, at least on a thread where his shit can hide from appropriate response, to fling a slur at anyone who dares to disagree with his brainwashing and bullshit. He's perfectly happy to take a tragedy, and use a dead teenage girl as a club to push his ideological POV. (Of course, the whiners will go whining, when someone takes a mass murder that involves a different tool than firearms, and shoves the tactic back in their faces, but hopefully that won't be an issue here.) People will point out that guns are a more effective means of suicide than pills, but they will happily ignore the even higher success rate of jumping from high places, or stepping in front of a train. I suggest you read this, suicide by a shot gun is 99% lethal, train is 96.2% and jumping 92.3%. In fact cyanide is 97%. http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/statistics-most-lethal-methods

BamaD -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/30/2013 12:38:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Imported from another thread, discussing a family tragedy, and some thugs with badges. quote: ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking This smells of some gun-sociopath going off on the cops. Now here we have a charming example of why firearms discussion is so difficult. "Gun-sociopath." According to popular statistics, 80 million Americans own guns. Is that, in itself, a determining factor of mental illness? DNAV is perfectly happy, at least on a thread where his shit can hide from appropriate response, to fling a slur at anyone who dares to disagree with his brainwashing and bullshit. He's perfectly happy to take a tragedy, and use a dead teenage girl as a club to push his ideological POV. (Of course, the whiners will go whining, when someone takes a mass murder that involves a different tool than firearms, and shoves the tactic back in their faces, but hopefully that won't be an issue here.) People will point out that guns are a more effective means of suicide than pills, but they will happily ignore the even higher success rate of jumping from high places, or stepping in front of a train. I suggest you read this, suicide by a shot gun is 99% lethal, train is 96.2% and jumping 92.3%. In fact cyanide is 97%. http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/statistics-most-lethal-methods So all need to be banned? I noticed that while he said firearms you had to narrow it down to the most lethal type of firearm to create the illusion he was wrong.

Nosathro -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/30/2013 12:43:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Maybe those who wish to read left wing nutcases claiming that the second amendment was meant to protect something that wasn't even particularly controversial at the time should read Federalist paper #46. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._46 Like other Virginia statesmen in the slave society, he was a slaveholder who inherited his plantation known as Montpelier, and owned hundreds of slaves during his lifetime to cultivate tobacco and other crops. Madison supported the three-fifths compromise that allowed three-fifths of the enumerated population of slaves to be counted for representation. He also had trouble making up his mind it seems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Madison

BamaD -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/30/2013 1:09:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Maybe those who wish to read left wing nutcases claiming that the second amendment was meant to protect something that wasn't even particularly controversial at the time should read Federalist paper #46. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._46 Like other Virginia statesmen in the slave society, he was a slaveholder who inherited his plantation known as Montpelier, and owned hundreds of slaves during his lifetime to cultivate tobacco and other crops. Madison supported the three-fifths compromise that allowed three-fifths of the enumerated population of slaves to be counted for representation. He also had trouble making up his mind it seems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Madison You should quit while you are behind.

BamaD -> RE: *Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment * (9/30/2013 1:10:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Maybe those who wish to read left wing nutcases claiming that the second amendment was meant to protect something that wasn't even particularly controversial at the time should read Federalist paper #46. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._46 Like other Virginia statesmen in the slave society, he was a slaveholder who inherited his plantation known as Montpelier, and owned hundreds of slaves during his lifetime to cultivate tobacco and other crops. Madison supported the three-fifths compromise that allowed three-fifths of the enumerated population of slaves to be counted for representation. He also had trouble making up his mind it seems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Madison And Adams? Again you leave out a key piece of information.

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