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Responsibility for Masters - 7/2/2006 8:35:21 AM

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Another thread here suggested this question. In the age honored traditions here at CM, let's start with personal experience. These may apply to dom's and various styles of tops too, maybe to a lesser degree.

I consider the Master to be responsible for any and all developments in the slave's health and physical integrity. If she cuts herself, it's the Master's failure at teaching her to pay attention. If she develops breast cancer, it's the Master's failure at making her go take the tests as she was supposed to. If she gets hit by a meteor, it's the Master's failure at protecting his property from meteors.

I understand this may seem to many an extreme stand. I'd be more than happy to hear any discussion above that simple statement.

However, I would also like to distinguish the question of responsibility, as such, from the question of coping. Arguments like "x can't be the Master's responsibility because I/anyone could never cope with that" are false by default. Things are what they are, and if you can't cope you probably don't belong there.

So, separately, I'd be also more than happy to hear any discussion about coping with the responsibility. As long as it's kept more or less clearly separated from actual discussion of responsibility.

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/2/2006 8:56:29 AM

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This is another reason why I prefer "authority" over "control"

It's pretty much leading a horse to water. No matter what gets told, taught, shown, beaten into you- the slave is still the one who has to DO it, the slave is still the one who has to go with it. Unless the master has the time and willingness to sit there 24/7 and forcefeed/eat/dress/do bathroom stuff with the slave, it's still within the slaves direct control.

We cannot relinquish personal responsibility for ourselves. I find the best slaves understand this and use it as their motivator.

Not to mention, many a slave has been the one who helps the master grow and develop.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/2/2006 9:01:26 AM

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technically speaking however, authority would constitute a dom/sub relationship, rather than a master/slave, woudn't you say ?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/2/2006 9:05:11 AM

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The control strictly begins with the slave's ability to excercise self control.

This is why you are dealing with a person-not a wind up toy.

(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/2/2006 9:28:38 AM

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To a degree. The Master teaches his slave to care for his property. It becomes her responsibility to do that. Yes he does teach those things which will enable her that. Things such as focus, self awareness, a calm spirit, the ability to pay attention, the ability to make wise choices in his absence, and in some cases , the ability to channel him and therefore know exactly what he would have her do.

So I agree up to there.

Your post, however, suggests that anyone hit by a drunk driver, for example, is at fault for not seeing the driver approaching, or for not getting out of the way in time. A Master can control his slave's thinking and awareness (this takes great effort on his part, and great trust and openness on the part of the slave), but there are circumstances in life that are out of anyone's control.

In your example, if the slave develops cancer, it is the Master's fault, is arguable. Master found me two years ago. Before he found me, I was a smoker. I stopped smoking. I stopped eating poorly. I started exercising. But cancer is developed over long term lack of care, and can be developed by things we are not even aware of. What if such cancer was because I love strawberries, and did not realize the way strawberries were cropped (it's bad stuff unless it's organic)? Should Master have investigated all I eat, how it is produced, and managed the quantities? In my case, I am pretty much on an all-organic diet (by choice), so then what would be the cause of colon cancer if I developed it? Can Master really be responsible for the abuses my body took years before we met, which only now have come to fruition?

Yours is an interesting post, and while I agree to it in many facets, I believe it is, as you said, extreme and in some cases a bit flawed.

Your thoughts?

(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/2/2006 9:42:07 AM

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well, i belive the answer to your question lies in the degrees.

i was talking about an absolute relationship. the master is absolutely responsible and the slave is absolutely owned. i readily grant that in real life, real people can never implement absolutes. but i was considering absolutes to begin with to give people a chance to consider them as such. all too often people demand absolute submission but fail to comprehend it implies absolute responsibility, since it's always easier to demand than to provide.

but in matters practical we agree.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/2/2006 9:48:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

well, i belive the answer to your question lies in the degrees.

i was talking about an absolute relationship. the master is absolutely responsible and the slave is absolutely owned. i readily grant that in real life, real people can never implement absolutes. but i was considering absolutes to begin with to give people a chance to consider them as such. all too often people demand absolute submission but fail to comprehend it implies absolute responsibility, since it's always easier to demand than to provide.

but in matters practical we agree.

Were you dealing with absolutes in an object, I would agree that one can also take corresponding responsibility.

But being humans,this has to be reasonably spread around. Control from without only goes so far-and in a consenting situation-it begins from within with the slave.

Anything else would be illegal.

< Message edited by Caretakr -- 7/2/2006 9:50:39 AM >

(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/2/2006 9:55:44 AM

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Ultimately, Himself has all control over me. He'll either choose to exercise that control or he won't. He does not, however, have all control over the actions of others, over disease, death etc. He's going to die whether he wants to or not ... so are you and there's nothing you can do about it. The quality (and to a large extent the quantity) of your life until that point is up to you and the quality of his life and my life is up to him until that point. You do the best you can. Sometimes life reaches up and bites you in the ass and how you choose to deal with it, to me, says a lot about your character. Shit happens to everyone. You can wear blinders and think you are God, Owner of the Universe and have a direct hand in all the creatures under your care. But for those of us who live in the real world, we know better.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/2/2006 10:12:50 AM

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quote:

Shit happens

Ah........ The greatest quote my mother ever made........

Agreed. Many things are way out of anyone's control. However, I don't see any Master being outside his/her own responsibility for whatever has happened, even if that was an improbable event. Back to the cancer thing. If said slave develops cancer, since it is the Master's responsibility for the health of said slave, he should then get help to remove the cancer. If not, then he is shirking his responsibilities and aiding in the death of a human being that he supposedly cares deeply about. When a problem surfaces, he should aid his slave in rectifing it.

If it is accidental, as in the case of the drunk driver, as it is with many people, it is normal to wonder if there was anything that could have been done and to blame oneself for what happened. Irregardless of whether or not it was an accident. That is simply human nature, when it comes to ones you love.

Absolute control or responsibility and absolute submission are ideals. They could never be reality, however, it is nice to strive towards it.

Shit happens.........is reality............ but should never be used as an excuse.

_____________________________

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For information about "the furry thing" please check out my profile journal entry for: 1/17/2006

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(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/2/2006 12:20:16 PM

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i don't expect my Master to protect me from all of life's troubles. If i get cancer it's not his fault. The tests only detect it's existance they are not preventative. Sometimes people have accidents and injuries and heartache. Sometimes they are preventable, sometimes it's just a twist of fate.

What i do expect is that he will be there and be supportive through whatever life throws at me. If i get cancer, support me through treatment. If a loved one dies hold me while i cry. If i am injured make sure that I get medical care. If i am doing something stupid that will get me hurt, then make the behavior correction.

(in reply to Slipstreme)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/3/2006 6:37:44 PM

Fawne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller
all too often people demand absolute submission but fail to comprehend it implies absolute responsibility, since it's always easier to demand than to provide.

Of course submissive's have responsibility! IMHO
Even if there is no true absolute that can be known: the one who controls,makes the decisions and leads the dynamic of the power balance holds control, authority and that more or less equals responsibility.

No human holds the ultimate responsibility like 'cancer" c'mon. Both must work to be their best for themselves and as a unit for success. Just thoughts...

< Message edited by Fawne -- 7/3/2006 7:10:27 PM >

(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/3/2006 7:02:39 PM

LadiesBladewing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

Another thread here suggested this question. In the age honored traditions here at CM, let's start with personal experience. These may apply to dom's and various styles of tops too, maybe to a lesser degree.

I consider the Master to be responsible for any and all developments in the slave's health and physical integrity. If she cuts herself, it's the Master's failure at teaching her to pay attention. If she develops breast cancer, it's the Master's failure at making her go take the tests as she was supposed to. If she gets hit by a meteor, it's the Master's failure at protecting his property from meteors.

I understand this may seem to many an extreme stand. I'd be more than happy to hear any discussion above that simple statement.

However, I would also like to distinguish the question of responsibility, as such, from the question of coping. Arguments like "x can't be the Master's responsibility because I/anyone could never cope with that" are false by default. Things are what they are, and if you can't cope you probably don't belong there.

So, separately, I'd be also more than happy to hear any discussion about coping with the responsibility. As long as it's kept more or less clearly separated from actual discussion of responsibility.

An owner's responsibilities are what they are. As I said in another post, at the point where a servant has yielded hirself completely, the responsibility upon the owner is profound. However, no-one can be "responsible" for that which is unanticipateable. From my experience in working in clinical cancer research, I can tell you that cancer is not something one can plan for or against. Even regular mammograms and good BSE will not always prevent breast cancer -- and there -are- no "warning" tests for other types of cancer, or other health issues. I believe that situations do not always fall under the category of "preventable situation", and "accidents" happen for reasons that have nothing to do with, say, whether or not a given servant is paying attention as instructed. I do not believe that an owner is always responsible for the -cause- of a situation. What an owner -is- responsible for is how the situation is managed once it becomes apparent. In a situation where we are the power in a relationship, it must also be recongized that we will be the one to be looked towards when things go wrong, and we must have a plan in place to deal with both the common and the uncommon crises of life, both for ourselves, and for those whom we are responsible.

In terms of coping -- we cope with what we must. Unless one wishes to abdicate ownership, life, or both, even when it seems that there is -no- solution, we -must- remain open, and flexible. Sometimes, the best we will be able to do is handle this moment, and so we must do so. Sometimes, it is valuable to look far ahead, to see what options are open -- and it is wise to search out the hows and whys.

ZWD

_____________________________

"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/3/2006 7:22:41 PM

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I could be wrong, but it sounds like you haven't owned a slave before.
It is great to throw around theories and absolutes, but in real life, things don't work that way.
I have never thought about a meteor hitting my slave. But if one did, though I would be sad beyond belief, I wouldn't think it was my fault.

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(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/3/2006 7:36:15 PM

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Using fast reply.

Sir is my owner. We are in an absolute-type relationship. Sir has ultimate *authority* over all of my life, whether he chooses to *exercise* that authority and in which areas is his prerogative.

Sir has very limited direct "control" over what I do - because *I'm* the one doing it. Every act of obedience is a choice to do so. That is the "control". I follow his will, I obey him - that is the *authority*.

When a slave obeys his or her owner, it is not usually because the owner "controls" the slave - the slave exercises self-control to surrender to the *authority* of the owner.

The owner exerts the authority over the areas of the slave's life that he or she chooses. The slave is responsible for *following* that authority. The owner orders, the slave obeys. Both parties are "responsible" for the consequences of actions done under order - the owner is responsible for how it affects the relationship, and the slave is responsible for how it affects society.

It is legally impossible to abdicate responsibility to one's actions. Sometimes actions only affect those within a relationship - and then it can be said that the legality doesn't matter. But when actions affect the outside society, we cannot discount the law.

Beyond being legally impossible, I believe it's a cop-out. "The devil made me do it" is a tired and weak defense. We are supposedly all adult human beings - and hopefully we are whole and healthy ones at that. If that is the case, we should take responsibility for our own actions - own our deeds. If Sir tells me to do something stupid, and I do - it's my fault for listening to a stupid order. He'd be a jerk for issuing it, but in the end - I did it.

(in reply to Estring)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/3/2006 8:02:09 PM

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This is where having mild to moderate OCD would come in handy for me.

If someone were to ask for my "no limits" submission, without knowing me very well (sorry to be vague) but - I'd have no problem making a 50 page list of possible things they could ask for or scenarios where the outcome might be "tenuous" - and I would also have no problem asking them just what they'd do with me in each. If they could weather answering that, I'd be theirs - still with some caveats. There are a lot of Doms that would be highly insulted by that, though, I suppose.

I am not saying I'd never give someone my trust. I am saying they'd need to earn it (and I am fully willing to reciprocate).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/3/2006 8:51:37 PM >

_____________________________

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/3/2006 8:19:49 PM

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It is the Master's responsibility to nurture, care, and mold their partner to reach their full potential as well as teach their Sub/Slave discipline, focus, and self awareness. In my opinion an unanticipated cause holds no reflection on the Master's ability to train. Accidents and mistakes will happen, this allows us to learn and grow with experience, so that we may advance in the learning process.
I will however, agree that a repeated failure in a one on one situation with no outside unanticipated cause, is a reflection on the Master's ability to control the behavior.

LOKI
.

_____________________________

"My pleasure, your pain. Doesn't matter, its all the same"

-Loki

(in reply to ImpGrrl)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/3/2006 8:27:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LokisBrat

It is the Master's responsibility to nurture, care, and mold their partner to reach their full potential as well as teach their Sub/Slave discipline, focus, and self awareness.

It's my position that the s-type in question should already have these things - at least in basic - before embarking on relationships. It's an adult thing.

It's not Sir's responsibility to do any of these things. Those that he does, he does because it fulfills him to do so. *Not* because it's his responsibility to do so - any more than it's our mutual responsibility to nurture one another as people in a loving relationship.

(in reply to LokisBrat)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/3/2006 8:31:40 PM

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~ fast reply

This probably won't be a popular response, but I think his responsibility as master is to be himself and to be the best he can be at any given moment. I have this same responsibility as his slave. The really great part is that who we are compliments each other so well.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to LokisBrat)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/3/2006 8:35:00 PM

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quote:

In the age honored traditions here at CM, let's start with personal experience.

Hey zen, when you do, let me know.

(in reply to zenofeller)

RE: Responsibility for Masters - 7/3/2006 8:39:51 PM

Fawne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LokisBrat

It is the Master's responsibility to nurture, care, and mold their partner to reach their full potential as well as teach their Sub/Slave discipline, focus, and self awareness. In my opinion an unanticipated cause holds no reflection on the Master's ability to train. Accidents and mistakes will happen, this allows us to learn and grow with experience, so that we may advance in the learning process.
I will however, agree that a repeated failure in a one on one situation with no outside unanticipated cause, is a reflection on the Master's ability to control the behavior.

LOKI
.

Well said, TY.

Responsible living lends to respect and that respect is earned.

(in reply to LokisBrat)

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