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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/8/2013 12:47:25 PM   
TearCollector


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I saw some good remarks here. And some maybe not so great. Catize makes a strong point with few words. The majority of self proclaimed Masters want the title and privileges with out the responsibilities or maybe even understanding the responsibilities. And JeffBC makes another great point (a few more words though..LOL), that we all started somewhere and while we each need to build our own experience base, it is the responsibility of our community to mentor. Especially when people ask for help. I didnt exactly quote Catize or JeffBC but its my interpretation of what they said and I agree with their thoughts. I think its important to take many things people say on the internet with a grain of salt. The internet has become a place where people are able to exercise their fantasies with out actually engaging in real life activities. For example, I play on line poker a lot. Almost every single day some smart ass punk makes inflammatory remarks that if he made in real life would get his but kicked before he finished his sentence. I dont let it bother me. Its the internet. If someone wants to call them selves the Master of all Masters so what? Doesnt change the taste of my coffee in the morning. If he is living out of his car and using his last $5 for internet time to solicit slaves to come rescue him ,well I find that amusing. I guess I should make my point and end this. The internet has opened the door for people with no experience and no idea what they are doing to fantasize very close to reality by talking with others on line with no accountability or recourse for error or judgment. Even though this is fact and to many a waste of time, the BDSM community still should take responsibility for mentoring when appropriate. Not every child in the class room will grow up to be amazing. But the teacher still needs to try and teach the whole class best they can. One great success makes it worth it. Am I wrong?

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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/8/2013 1:01:13 PM   
MariaB


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But who appoints themselves as the teacher?

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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/8/2013 1:14:06 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TearCollector
The internet has opened the door for people with no experience and no idea what they are doing to fantasize very close to reality by talking with others on line with no accountability or recourse for error or judgment. Even though this is fact and to many a waste of time, the BDSM community still should take responsibility for mentoring when appropriate. Not every child in the class room will grow up to be amazing. But the teacher still needs to try and teach the whole class best they can. One great success makes it worth it. Am I wrong?

It depends on your philosophy. There is a significant difference in the principles of "each one teach one" and "each one try to teach everyone."

Just like not all students are the same, not all teachers are, either. Some would rather attempt to teach everyone at the same level. Others will look for that exceptional student that might be sitting in the class and know that their investment will pay off. That is still one success making it worth it.

You play poker. It's the same premise. How many raises and calls are you going to stay in with a pair of deuces when you compare it with a flush? You're going to place your bets depending on the hand you are dealing with. The more potential for winning a hand, the more you are going to stick with it. You also know when it's time to fold.



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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/8/2013 1:14:06 PM   
TearCollector


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Thats a great question Maria B. But the answer is not different then I wrote above. The internet allows anyone of any caliper to appoint themselves a teacher of anything. It is the student that must choose the teacher. A desire to learn from someone whom they think can teach them what they want to learn. Stupidity is not a quality that makes someone a slave. In fact its been my experience that some of the best slaves were also the most intelligent. That doesnt mean that bad choices cant be made. Of coarse there will be mistakes and a learning curve for new slaves. But bad experiences can lead to wisdom and better future choices. Thanks for the comment Maria B. Your question meant I wasnt clear enough in my post and I like to be clear.

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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/8/2013 1:52:24 PM   
TearCollector


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LadyPact, your use of poker analogies brought an unexpected sense I was talking with an old friend. LOLOL. IM still sitting here smiling about it as I type this. Your not wrong in what you say. And maybe you bring even more light to my intended point when you say "It depends on your philosophy". I doubt I could make a statement that fits everyone's philosophy or ideas of correctness. IM personally not afraid to make choices and be wrong or unpopular so its easy for me to express my thoughts on something.

If I was a slave seeking a Master / teacher, I would not be in a rush to choose. But I would know that it was my choice. A slave gets two choices. The first and last ones actually. The fist choice is to enter the relationship. The second is to stay in or get out. All choices in the middle are the Masters. The slave is never doomed for making a bad first choice because there is always the second choice that can reset the field of opportunity. IN my very humble opinion, this makes the first choice a little less perilous.

I also would like to thank you for engaging me the way you did. It was heart warming really. And no one has flamed me yet or knocked my IQ level for poor grammar which I half expected initially. LOL

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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/8/2013 8:28:48 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TearCollector
it is the responsibility of our community to mentor.

I disavow any connection or relationship to that thought.

Wasn't my entire post pointing in pretty much the exact opposite direction?


< Message edited by JeffBC -- 11/8/2013 8:29:52 PM >


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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/8/2013 8:59:58 PM   
littlewonder


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ooohhh....I wanna be a mentor!

Starts thinking up all kinds of crazy things to make them run out the door screaming loudly.



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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/8/2013 9:06:34 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
Starts thinking up all kinds of crazy things to make them run out the door screaming loudly.

Now, for our next lesson I'm going to need a squid, a blowtorch, and a sewing kit...

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officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/9/2013 6:39:04 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: TearCollector
it is the responsibility of our community to mentor.

I disavow any connection or relationship to that thought.

Wasn't my entire post pointing in pretty much the exact opposite direction?



Whether we seek to be a mentor or not if we are exposed to others they can learn from us as we can learn from them. The more successful we are perceived by others the more others will look to us seeking to learn how to be as successful.

I don't see it as a responsibility. But mentoring is often a by product of two things. One being exposed to the community and two being perceived as successful or skilled in what others May want.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 11/9/2013 7:11:52 AM >


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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/9/2013 6:46:04 AM   
ShoreBound149


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A leather vest, black boots and a goatee are all part of the starter kit from what I've seen.

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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/9/2013 7:14:58 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Whether we seek to be a mentor or not if we are exposed to others they can learn from us as we can learn from them. The more successful we are perceived by others the more others will look to us seeking to learn how to be as successful.

"Leading by example" is not "mentoring"... neither is teaching classes.... neither is having a friend and chatting about stuff. They are all distinct things. My general sense is that pretty much any time a formal relationship is setup in BDSM-land it is very likely to be abusive which is why I'd strongly urge any friend of mine to avoid such things. Conversely, if some friend of mine asked if I'd be their mentor I'd decline. I'd follow up with, "But are there some questions I can help you with?"

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/9/2013 9:11:08 AM   
ManOeuvre


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Unfortunately (fortunately) I can relate quite a bit to JeffBC's bullet-pointed first post;

I jumped into my first situation unprepared, if there is such a thing, and yes, found out in due time that owning a parachute does not make one a parachutist.

The second situation I cultivated was a little better, lasted longer, had more stability, etc. In fact it paralleled my life rather well, in terms of where I was in my career, etc (early 20s).

Of course, most people, myself included are still a touch wet behind the ears in their early 20s...

My third, after a couple years' worth of semi-celibate concentration on education, training, career, bohemian jazz musician-lifestyle, saving and personal development was with a woman whom I'd sought across the earth from the middle east to the middle west. Well, I'd sought her name anyhow, as Lord Byron had quite enchanted me with it some decade ago. I found her on this site in fact, and was she ever perfect.

Yet, still, I was not up to the task, and after a little over a year, my record up to that point, things fell apart. Whether you're a captain in your heart, or just because of the hat, when the ship sinks, it's your fault.

Now I'm on the eve of 30. I've been with this woman for a little over 5 years. Another collarme.com diamond in the rough. I shouldn't say diamond in the rough, actually, as the women on collarme outnumber the men who deserve them 100 to 1 (and that's not just another argument for polyfuckery).

We let our relationships evolve organically. Took things slowly. We knew the roles we wanted to play but decided to allow ourselves to grow into them. My career is stabilizing and hers is also. We have plans, and the means, for growing our family both horizontally and vertically. German shepherd is here, and the suburban homestead is on this side of the horizon.

We're at the point where we're dabbling in playing with others. Isn't that neat? I read those profiles, too, by the way "I'm so excited! After only 2 weeks, Master wants me to find another to be my sitser [SIC]."

Yes, after 5 years we're just starting. Maybe I'm a slow learner like DarkSteven.

Two rings. One finger-sized in a clamshell box in the gunsafe, another (axsmar permanent, you know the one) has been around her throat for 4 years. I've got a few axsmars and eternities in reserve, just in case a gorean capture scenario comes up in real life, but I'm not holding my breath.... that or her hot friend we've been angling for a couple years now...

One cage, under my king-kong height bed.

My point after the ramble is that we know these bad things are going to happen. They'll be learning the hard way. While I absolutely agree with Frank from counter-earth (or at least counter-England?) that one's material affairs MUST be in order prior to taking on such a piece of property as another human, I get the feeling aspiring masters of the Xy variety will continue to think with their 'swords', and fall upon them.

There are certainly some obvious warnings I would encourage the ladies to avoid, and the aspiring maestros to cause an introspective re-examining of their priorities:

- Living in one's car.
- Living in parents' basement.
- Camera is excited by their penis (or is it the other way around....)
- Pictures of their AR collection hanging on the wall behind their computer monitor.
- "Gang gestures" in their pictures (sorry I'm Canadian)
- Major grammar issues (does he 'think' in mixed tense and case?)
- More cash in their pocket than their holdings (be it bank account, gold, w.h.y.)
- Unemployed/unemployable

Of course, those could all be totally off the mark. There could be a master out there who is a genuine gypsy, who occasionally stops off at the ole' homestead and sleeps in the basement, has an astonishing penis that he feels would be a crime to keep off the internet, feels that as a 2A activist, that showing pictures of guns is the best way to get the good word out, is a member of some fraternal order that uses handsigns and yet doesn't engage in goofy risky criminal business, composes with bad grammar/orthography in order to convey a deeper meaning or emphasis, with the mistakes being the clues to his hidden messages, keeps 3 million in a suitcase because he doesn't trust the banks and is unemployed because he wants to be.

Generally though, I think the neophytes (such as myself, with fewer than 10,000 days experience) will have to learn it and earn it. Won't be easy. Tony Robbins books might help. Probably won't though.

It will be worth it.

In my opinion, Blonderfluff, with "Learn it and earn it." you laid the queen of spades, but JeffBC takes the hand with an ace - "Just do your best."

PS To Dark Steven's signature, I'd like to add that my penultimate woman had long 'model pins' and wished for plumper, 'cute' legs while my current lovely lady is short and sweet and prays for the long thins. Such is life.

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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/9/2013 9:17:30 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Whether we seek to be a mentor or not if we are exposed to others they can learn from us as we can learn from them. The more successful we are perceived by others the more others will look to us seeking to learn how to be as successful.

"Leading by example" is not "mentoring"... neither is teaching classes.... neither is having a friend and chatting about stuff. They are all distinct things. My general sense is that pretty much any time a formal relationship is setup in BDSM-land it is very likely to be abusive which is why I'd strongly urge any friend of mine to avoid such things. Conversely, if some friend of mine asked if I'd be their mentor I'd decline. I'd follow up with, "But are there some questions I can help you with?"



Seldom is mentorship a formal established relationship and usually in my experience it is a subset to the bigger relationship in or out of the lifestyle. Most often I find friendship relationships or Boss/Underling relationships are that umbrella relationship. Of course on occasion it is a formal establish dynamic and not something I encourage in or out of the lifestyle.

Leading by example, teaching, mentoring all distinct things but all have some common characteristics as well. Most importantly their is a perceived knowledge disparity that gives a power of one over the other. The nice thing about leading by example is one is only really responsible to self. While teaching and mentoring tend to have a responsibility between the two sides of the coin. A responsibility that most fail at in this lifestyle that I have seen. But more importantly, I think most are doing the self learn thing and why leading by example tends to have a lot of influence on people. If you are doing the self learning thing... Well watching and learning from those that are leading by their success tend to have a lot of influence on one self



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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/9/2013 12:18:33 PM   
MariaB


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The problem I have with 'leading by example' is, I know many people on the scene (sorry but on-line doesn't count in my book) and of all those people, a good few have long term Master/Mistress slave relationships. Some of those relationships are far from healthy though, some of those women/men are just caught up in a magnetic field they can't mindfully get out of.

One particular person comes to mind. A middle aged spring buck of a man who always flounces around in a long leather coat, chaps and cowboy boots with wheely spurs on them. He's been on the scene for many years and put together hundreds of workshops in all manner of kinkk. He's well regarded by newish scene members but generally grumbled about by members who've been around long enough to understand what he's really like. Young girls new onto the scene are quick to latch on to him and young Doms wanting what he has, hang off his every word because he who has the biggest stable must be doing something right, right? If one is good at marketing themselves, as he is, and if one can climb up the ladder of fame by talking the right talk, one could easily convince others that they are the dogs bollocks of Mastery when in fact, they are just good very good at self marketing.

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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/9/2013 12:39:03 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Leading by example, teaching, mentoring all distinct things but all have some common characteristics as well. Most importantly their is a perceived knowledge disparity that gives a power of one over the other. The nice thing about leading by example is one is only really responsible to self. While teaching and mentoring tend to have a responsibility between the two sides of the coin. A responsibility that most fail at in this lifestyle that I have seen. But more importantly, I think most are doing the self learn thing and why leading by example tends to have a lot of influence on people. If you are doing the self learning thing... Well watching and learning from those that are leading by their success tend to have a lot of influence on one self

*nod* I'm with you on all of that Knight. I disavow the word "mentor" due to the part I bolded. I want no part of the corrupted power arrangements so prevalent in the BDSM world and I would not advise any friend of mine to participate in them. I think I'll stick with "I chat with friends" since it is so much cleaner yet does not in any way reduce the influence I wield.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/9/2013 2:32:38 PM   
DesFIP


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My recollection of personal ads in the Village Voice thirty years ago is such that all those guys were self taught, unmentored, and making it up as they went.

Which after all is how most people do this. They don't take classes in it, because I've never seen a 12 week course offered by the local adult education center saying 'how to be a dominant'. Instead, they start with finding someone who is compatible, who also wants to explore this, and does so.

It's certainly how we did it. We tried stuff, if it worked great. If not, we discussed why not and either tweaked it to get a successful outcome or decided we really didn't like it and stopped doing it.

He had lots of bondage topping experience, but that's different than agreeing to lead the relationship.

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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/9/2013 7:42:58 PM   
littlewonder


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This reminds me of how last week I was asked to be a mentor to new employees. My reaction was "HELL NO!Do you really want me to mentor them? If so don't yell at me when they fuck up cause ya know, no one taught me to do what I do. I taught myself and if you ever saw the way I work, you would so not like it!". Yeah....there's no fucking way on earth I'd wanna teach someone to do the things I do because I guarantee it's the opposite of how most others operate and that includes bdsm, D/s, M/s or s/m


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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/10/2013 4:25:33 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

This reminds me of how last week I was asked to be a mentor to new employees. My reaction was "HELL NO!Do you really want me to mentor them? If so don't yell at me when they fuck up cause ya know, no one taught me to do what I do. I taught myself and if you ever saw the way I work, you would so not like it!". Yeah....there's no fucking way on earth I'd wanna teach someone to do the things I do because I guarantee it's the opposite of how most others operate and that includes bdsm, D/s, M/s or s/m



and it will be proclaimed from the highest levels, the thrones, the pedestals and the philosophers of D/s, that this mentor shouldn't be mentoring at all!!



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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/10/2013 1:49:39 PM   
littlewonder


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Exactly! Good lord, I pity any mentee I would have to mentor.


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RE: So you are a Master! - 11/14/2013 7:47:44 AM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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A few years back someone was telling me that back before the internet was around if someone claimed to be a master they had to prove it and if they ended up being some idiot who had no clue what he was doing then they were dealt with rather severely. Not sure how true that is since the internet came around in my late teens so all this would have gone on when I was little.

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