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RavenMuse -> Control (7/3/2006 1:36:07 PM)

There are two things that have sparked this post: The first, given I am still keeping my eyes open for a second girl at some point, I'm still occassionaly glancing through the profiles on the other side. Maybe identify/self-lable as brats who are looking to be 'taken in hand' or even more blatently seek a Master who "Will force them to submit"

Such profiles 'red flag' for me. I won't say they are 'wrong' because it is two adults in a consentual situation, but it isn't D/s from MY perspective. If a girl submits to me she WANTS to give herself to me, she WANTS me to take the control, she WANTS to submit.... where then does the need to force that enter the equasion unless it is some childish game. If it takes the spector of a 'cane of damoclse' hanging over their head to get them to obay then it is coersion, not submission. When a girl submits she obays willingly, she is driven by her wish to make her Master happy, not through fear of punishment.

The second thing sparking this post happened just a few days ago, a post where many where advising a seemingly inexperienced Dom to spank his girl into submission. Before that I was simply thinking it to be something newbies where mistaking and/or playing with, yet several of those giving the advice where apparently very experienced.

How is that attitude any diffrent? Isn't it playing the same 'game'? Where is the submission? Where is the want to serve, the want to please her Master?

The way to a girls submission and thus obedience is through her heart and mind, not through her arse and a cane! (Though there are several fun things you can do with that too [:D])

Canes, floggers, paddles, spankings... they are fun, but surely to solve a problem you need communication and understanding!

Well there is one opinion, mine and I'm sure there will be several more to come on this thread some will in part agree, others vehemently disagree.... discussions tend to be boring otherwise.



Flame73 -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 2:06:12 PM)

I agree wholeheartedly with Your assessment. I've recently had an occassion to meet such an individual, one desiring a force-related situation. I readily offer training sessions for those who have little experience to "get their feet wet", I am not disillusioned and I do realise those with less experience may need additional motivation in certain circumstance.However, I cannot believe that those who want/desire a forced situation to motivate them to a deeper level of submission are truly submissive. If it comes from force or coersion then is not submission it's subjugation. The person is accepting what is happening not out of a desire to please or satisfy, but because the other person involved was able to control and intimidate to the point they believe they have no other choice.
But I was very confused when she expressed a desire to be "forced to take things" because she had no way of knowing if she'd enjoy certain acts or not. I remember having the desire to experience certain aspects and acts, but I had no shame in requesting to experience them on very reasonable terms. I have on many occasions desired to be dominated to a point where I felt totally controlled, but this was not attached to a desire to "motivate me to submit more fully." I wanted this experience this feeling because I happen to enjoy some fear and adrenaline with my cake.
So I think You have nailed it, communication is the key. I know D/s isn't always about the sub/slaves wants but sometimes it never hurts to ask for exactly what you do want. I know I have no problem making sure My needs/wants are met, no matter what side of the blanket I happen to be on. There are also many situations where I enjoy having to "pay" for certain things I desire. It's about how each person makes their particular dynamic work for them, but it can't be expected to be gratifying if you don't have the ability to communicate what you really want/need. If it has to be taken from you with force where's the power exchange? I have always felt to have a successful D/s dynamic power had to "exchanged" meaning one gives up power while the other takes the power made available to them.It's all about balance, if one person's doing all the taking and getting nothing given freely then the effort become an aggravation.Personally I need both to take and to give to be happy, and I think that's true of most people.
 
~S~



PlayfulOne -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 2:13:32 PM)

Raven,

I would agree with you.  I have never been interested in "brats".  It can be a fun game on occasion but that constant battle of "make me" gets old very quick.  One should submit to me because they want to not because they are made even if they are only be made by some game in their mind.

One either wishes to serve me or they do not.  Should they wish not to or wish to make a game of it then they know where the door is.  I will not have the fun of a crop, paddle, cane, flogger, etc...   ,   tainted by it becoming an instrument for me to enforce my will on another.

K



Caretakr -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 2:18:49 PM)

I have dealt with the "force me" types in the past. They are catch 22 girls. If you force them,you are an abuser. If you do not,you are a worm. Generally, they represent the sort that has been programmed by silly bodice ripper romances.

Now it might be tempting for  Master to think how fun it would be to "break" one of these creatures with inexorable corporal punishment and confinement-but that entails the risk of being jailed-not worth it. Especially with a reactionary one, who will doubtless turn as soon as you begin REALLY breaking down her resistance-and will then run to authorties.

I would never consider so extreme a regimen on any but willing girls I could trust- and only after they  had undergone VERY intense and thorough negotiations  before hand. So I agree,this reactance type is not worthy of note, or consideration.

Better to find one with a service fire-than an attitude of insanity and fantasy.



Level -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 2:21:36 PM)

Well said, Raven. You ask the question on how some were advising "beating" the submissive until she obeyed vs the submissive advertising "you'll have to take me and make me"-- the difference to me is the "beat them" school tends to be in relationship with submissives that don't come across as "do me" types, while the "you'll have to take me and make me" sorts are very much like that.
 
Nothing wrong with it if it's what floats their boats, but not what I would have, either.



heartfeltsub -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 2:34:44 PM)

To me it seems the antithesis of submission, if one is constantly being "made" to obey.. i have talked with some Doms who like the "brat" for a play session from time to time, but have also commented that they wouldn't want to work that hard all the time. And it seems like most of you who have commented have similar feelings on the matter.



Bearlee -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 2:45:12 PM)

Okay...this is too funny.  Synchronicities abound?  I JUST posted this:
 
"The thing is…I believe one should WANT to please their Dom/me or Top.  I don’t want to beat submission outta anybody (as if I could!).  I feel submission, including bottoming, should be freely given just because the person wants to PLEASE the other.  For me…that’s a pure and simple definition of what submission is/does. 
 
Just to be clear…doing things to please the Dom/me does NOT (in my book) mean being a door-mat.  It does include being able to hold a feisty conversation on many topics, having an opinion and being to state it."
 
I couldn't agree more with everyone's comments so far....including the part where some like that bratty behavior and it that's fine for them.  It's just that I don't.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 2:48:39 PM)

People get the idea that submissives are weak. So, if they make you take them down, they still get their rocks off on submission, without having to face the idea that they might be weak.  They like feeling like they don't have to be responsible, they don't have to think about it, they get to be passive without the consequences.

The problem of course being that submissives aren't weak, that they are avoiding taking responsibility for their choices and that this sort of dynamic gets really tiring over the long term and they will eventually have to do things the slow long hard boring way.

Enjoying force play is one thing...a forced relationship however, really doesn't work.



Caretakr -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 2:51:09 PM)

A few days spent pissing into a bucket in a cage, might convince these "do_mes" that forced control is not as exciting as they might think.[:D]



bandit25 -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 2:59:47 PM)

I think LA is right.  Force play can be fun...a forced relationship doesn't work.



heartfeltsub -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 3:04:35 PM)

Caretakr, some of us like pissing in a bucket, though i am not one the the "force-me" subs (grinning)



PlayfulOne -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 3:08:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

A few days spent pissing into a bucket in a cage, might convince these "do_mes" that forced control is not as exciting as they might think.[:D]


lol Care,  it usually convinces them to do_me their way out the door.

K



LadySpanks -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 3:14:45 PM)

It behooves Me to wonder, why in the hell would ANY ONE want to be in a relationship (vanilla, D/s, M/s, BDSM, etc) where they are MADE to feel of ANY importance thru their actions?
 
You cannot MAKE anyone respect you or like you unless they GIVE that to you.  As in reverse, NO ONE can take what is yours to give.
 
And for that matter, I would NEVER want a sub/slave that felt as though I had to take what is their's for the giving.  Either you want to or you dont.  Simple plan.
 
**steps down off soap box**



Bearlee -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 3:19:33 PM)

Oh my, Caretakr… I was threatened with a litterbox once! (just for the fun of it; not for punishment)  While the whole idea is pure embarrassment…it was also kinda hot!  Gee…could it have been the control?



sublizzie -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 3:22:36 PM)

I may be misreading what you are saying, but it's possible they've been reading too many of the Dom profiles.

I am looking for someone who wants to control me, completely. What I find on many of the profiles is "I love whips" or "I'm really good at caning". What does that have to do with control? That's telling me that either the person is only interested in playing relationship, not really D/s, or they anticipate needing to use force to exert their control. Neither of which is interesting to me.

I'm new enough at all of this that I may be totally misinterpreting the original post AND the profiles I've read. If so, I apologize and ask to be enlightened.



SusanofO -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 3:36:22 PM)

I will eventually want to be with someone who wants me to submit and have never considered myself a brat type. I relish the whole idea of submitting fully. I have one scenario that involves force: Forced rape. But that would be something that is negotiated and my Dom would know that, so it would be okay, hopefully.

- Susan



Caretakr -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 3:39:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

A few days spent pissing into a bucket in a cage, might convince these "do_mes" that forced control is not as exciting as they might think.[:D]


lol Care,  it usually convinces them to do_me their way out the door.

K



I know, why do you think I find it appealing?



vield -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 4:10:48 PM)

Interestng.
My feeling is that "forcing" a "brat" to comply is very much like spanking a masochist to punish them.
If this is all known and negotiated beween all parties yes it could be a fun scene. But if someone feels it is a way to take charge, they are not understanding what is happening.
My thought is that the "brat" is manipulating the top or dom into giving him/her what they want, just like the misbehaving masochist manipulates their partner into giving them the spanking/flogging/caning/whatever which they actually desire to get.
vield



PlayfulOne -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 5:10:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

A few days spent pissing into a bucket in a cage, might convince these "do_mes" that forced control is not as exciting as they might think.[:D]


lol Care,  it usually convinces them to do_me their way out the door.

K



I know, why do you think I find it appealing?


I know care,  We had one who was here interacting with us who talked an excellent game,  but in the end showed she was a self centered do_me.  She has since been directed to the exit and thinks I am overly harsh.  I am not sure how I will live with myself, :).

K



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Control (7/3/2006 5:19:37 PM)

From a sub point of view I have to say that anytime I have had serious issues with obedience it's because I'm trying to be submissive to someone. Usually it's a casual playmate, and there just isn't the emotional connection that moves me to submit naturally from my core being.

Now that I understand this I avoid situations where someone might expect me to be able to just turn on the submissive button. It doesn't work that way.

Either I'm compelled from within and the submission flows from a need to please someone I feel strongly about, or it's just going to be a role I'm playing. (A very unsatisfying one, I might add.)



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