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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/27/2013 9:20:37 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


The OP meant, as you clearly know, that the pope has issues with the twisted version of Christianity practiced by many on the right in this country.





Well then how do you define "Right" because Christian Evangelicals from Andrew Jackson to William Jennings Bryant and into the mid 1970s (many even today) were always populists and small d democrats. In fact, were it not for the complete and total embrace of Abortion on Demand and Homosexual Marriage, many Evangelicals would still be in lock step the Big D Democrats.

Not true, the reason that the evangelicals of Williams Jenning Bryan and populism went over to the republican party happened when the democrats passed the civil rights law. It wasn't abortion and homosexuality that moved evangelicals to the GOP, it was over civil rights. The Willims Jenning Bryan evangelicals were part of what HL Mencken called the "KKK branch" of the Democrats, they were based in the farm belt and down south where the KKK was strongest, and along with the anti wall street and bank mantra they also were racists as well. The civil rights movement happened before ROE and certainly long before gay rights was even a blip on the roadmap..

What happened was that the GOP, after using the southern Strategy, looked around and realized that the evangelicals represented a potent block who were seething about issues like abortion and later on gays, and the GOP at that point started with using social issues as 'wedge issues". The GOP before Reagan didn't give a crap about social issues, neither abortion nor gays were in the GOP platform until the Reagan era, but the evangelicals were already in the GOP fold long before that because of the end of Jim Crow.

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/27/2013 9:33:19 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I was asking the OP what he meant by "republican jesus", I have said it twice now yet you seem unable to comprehend.


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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/27/2013 9:44:49 PM   
njlauren


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The Nicene and Apostolic creeds simply state what they believed Jesus to be, but typical of the religious wrong they try and narrow down Christianity to believing that Jesus was the trinity, died for our sins on the cross, absolving sins, rose to the right hand of the father, and that is all you have to believe and you are a Christian.

First of all, those creeds were man made, they came about in the 4th century and are not in the bible, they represent what the Bishops at Nicea decided Jesus was when Augustine chartered them to decide between all the competing visions of Christ to decide which was true (at the time, there were roughly 200 Christian sects in existence, with varying views of who Christ was and what he was teaching)

The problem is the bible itself has 4 main canonical texts that talk about a lot more than that, despite the uncomfortable truth to this type of person who wants to turn Christianity into simply believing Christ was the son of god, etc.

See, the problem is, that the GOP and their right wing buddies have created a really, really interesting kind of theology, and the Pope was directly commenting on this. First of all, that the RC in the US and many other right wing religious types, have turned Christianity into being primarily about being anti abortion and anti gay. The Catholic Bishops, for example, whose church teachings, bible and founder (Christ) said that blessed are the poor, that the poor and powerless are the duty of all Christians to help, instead threaten politicians who are pro choice and pro same sex marriage, and yet remain amazingly silent when Catholic politicians like Paul Ryan and Rick Santorum basically preach the writings of Ayn Rand, who is the opposite of Christian or what Christ taught. We have the religious right that preach the prosperity gospel, that "Jesus wants us to be millionaires" according to Joel Osteen, or that "Christ was kidding when he said a rich man would have a harder time going to heaven then a camel passing through the eye of the needle". It is the Catholic Bishops censoring a group of nuns who spend all their time helping the poor and powerless, instead of yelling and screaming about abortion and same sex marriage (imagine that, helping the poor, how shocking!). It is someone like Mitt Romney talking about the 47% percent of Americans who pay no taxes and calling them freeloaders (both of which are bullshit but whatever), it is the evangelicals, who claim to be born again and following Jesus, who so corrupted themselves with power that when the GOP proposes slashing spending on poor and old people, they either stay silent or actively support that, or support the idea that cutting taxes on the rich is good, because they are 'blessed by God' (talk about perverted theology!). Basically, what he is saying is reducing Christianity to being anti abortion and anti gay or focusing on sexuality is a perversion, and he is right, because Christ made very clear what Christians were supposed to do in leading their lives, and it wasn't chasing political power, it wasn't working to elect politicians, it certainly wasn't making sure the rich get even richer, it wasn't turning global warming into a crusade to fight against......


The GOP annointed itself the party of the faithful 30 years ago, and in order to promote the agenda of the evangelicals in terms of social issues and to make people like the Koch brothers or Trevor Norquist happy, they created a perverted idea of Christ and Christianity that while demonizing gays, trying to ban teaching evolution and making abortion the only thing that is important, also created this theology that supports the notion that the poor are lazy and are parasites, that the rich are blessed and that Jesus wants us all to be rich, which I guess could be called "Republican Jesus". The pope is Christians should be down in the streets and dirty, fighting for the poor and helpless, not sucking up to the rich and obsessing about ideology while watching politicians and businesses cause misery with unbridled greed. The last two Popes, with the incredibly widening gap between the very rich and everyone else, the exploitation of third world labor, basically did or said nothing because they wanted the support of the rich and powerful in their quest to make abortion and gays Christianity IMO, and this pope is a breath of fresh air.

I think he also realizes that the last two Popes, despite all the claims, have turned more and more people away from the church, as the religious right turned people off of evangelicals. The head of the Southern Baptists recently came out and said that they had no right to fight legal recognition of same sex marriage and that they had gotten too chummy with politicians, and needed to focus more time on loving Jesus and helping others rather than trying to fight the culture wars..and one of the big reasons is evangelicals have the same problems the church does, they have turned off the young people, and the Southern Baptists have seen a major decline in adult baptisms and are losing members, as are the Catholic Church. The head of the Southern Baptists went on to say the same thing as the Pope, that they needed to bring Jesus to the people, not hit them over the head with it like sledgehammer.

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/27/2013 9:46:56 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I was asking the OP what he meant by "republican jesus"...

Well there might be something to it. After all, Jesus always encouraged charity. He never agitated against Rome seeking better benefits. I suspect he might look upon bloated government entitlement programs as a mockery of charity.

(Just sayin...)

K.

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/27/2013 10:10:51 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

The Nicene and Apostolic creeds simply state what they believed Jesus to be...

That's an exceedingly thin characterization of the creeds. The Nicene and Apostolic creeds embody the principle tenets, the things to be held true, of the Church's theological understanding of the canonical gospels. And what do you mean by saying "they believed," them, those guys in the past. The Nicene and Apostolic creeds continue to stand as Christianity's principle liturgical confessions of faith.

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

First of all, those creeds were man made, they came about in the 4th century and are not in the bible

First of all let's assume you know that the Bible is man-made too, and go nowhere from there.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/27/2013 10:54:15 PM >

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 5:31:42 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I was asking the OP what he meant by "republican jesus"...

Well there might be something to it. After all, Jesus always encouraged charity. He never agitated against Rome seeking better benefits. I suspect he might look upon bloated government entitlement programs as a mockery of charity.

(Just sayin...)

K.



On the other hand there's much clearer evidence that he'd have loved government programmes to prevent abortion, suppress homosexuality and facilitate already rich people getting even richer?

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 6:23:54 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Edited to add I find it funny as hell that someone who has told us over and over what a joke the bible is, now is insisting I not only read it but follow it's laws.

You profess to be Christian. I hold people to their claims. So why do you not even try to live up to the most basic tenet of your faith?


You have no clue how I live my life so quit pretending you do. I asked the op a question and now you are just trolling as usual. Go play with someone else, I am through with you.

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 6:44:51 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

I take it you mean his latest rant against the idolatry of money, trickle down economics and other policies that disenfranchise the poor. Personally I think he is awesome and breath of fresh air against fundies. I look forward to the right wingers freaking out.

Pope Francis denounces Idolatry of Money

Yes. I was raised a Catholic and describe myself as a survivor of Catholic education. There's little love lost between the Catholic Church and yours truly.

After the stultifying reigns of John Paul and Benedict, this Pope is a breath of fresh air. If he keeps up insisting that the Church remain true to Jesus' lessons and ideals of poverty, service and inclusion, I might have to re-consider my position!

Thus far, his has been a most impressive Papacy.


Amen!

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 6:54:57 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I was asking the OP what he meant by "republican jesus"...

Well there might be something to it. After all, Jesus always encouraged charity. He never agitated against Rome seeking better benefits. I suspect he might look upon bloated government entitlement programs as a mockery of charity.

(Just sayin...)

K.



Could be but the OP hasn't been back to clarify. DK said the answer was in the bible but as usual when asked to be specific he couldn't. I think gotsteel is right and he got the idea from some website with that picture. Still doesn't make any sense but that is not unexpected either.

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 7:02:25 AM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Are you suggesting Jesus was a republican or do you think there were two of them, one for the left and one for the right? Your post doesn't really make that clear. And how do I find out which one my church is worshiping. After all the preacher is a liberal but I would guess at least half of the church isn't. I always thought they were worshiping the same guy but maybe not. Maybe I will stop by this week and ask him. (the minister, not Jesus)


In the mean time it is amusing watching a few of the less stable on the left side freak out about it.

Maybe you should. And maybe you should try reading the Gospels. You clearly missed a few parables.



Actually I had to drop off some canned goods so I did just that. He said there was only one and if he had to guess he would say Jesus leaned more to the left than the right. He also went on to say that there was good chance that who ever said that probably had issues with the right and could safely be ignored. But I am sure you have studied this subject more than he has so by all means please tell me which of the parables is going to explain what the OP meant by "republican jesus" or suggests there was more than one.


:)

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 7:04:04 AM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Edited to add I find it funny as hell that someone who has told us over and over what a joke the bible is, now is insisting I not only read it but follow it's laws.

You profess to be Christian. I hold people to their claims. So why do you not even try to live up to the most basic tenet of your faith?

Most basic as defined by who? Are you an expert on Christian Theology now too?

K.


I was raised Christian. I read extensively on the subject when I educated myself on the world's great religions.

If the Sermon on the Mount is not at the heart of Christianity, as it is explained in the Gospels, then what is?


Depends on which Christian you ask.

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 7:05:25 AM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Still want to go with the Sermon on the Mount?

Yes. Now go ask your minister or priest about it.

You know, you read about these things happening. But they still take my breath away when one happens to me. Well you heard it here first, Christians. If you foolishly thought that the tenets of your faith were set forth in the Nicene and Apostolic creeds, you now have it straight from some guy on an Internet message board that you're wrong.

K.



Must be true then.

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 8:14:00 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Both the Apostles' and Nicene creeds have gone through some changes over the years; minor, to be sure but they have changed.

For me (since Lookie mentioned that it depends upon which Christian you ask), the Prayer of St. Francis is a good indicator of one's intent.





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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 8:38:58 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Both the Apostles' and Nicene creeds have gone through some changes over the years; minor, to be sure but they have changed.

For me (since Lookie mentioned that it depends upon which Christian you ask), the Prayer of St. Francis is a good indicator of one's intent.


Well of course. There are different versions in use now too, all pretty similar in the main points, and they constitute their Church's liturgical confession of the tenets of the faith. What you or someone else might personally like better doesn't unseat them.

K.

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 8:53:31 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I think gotsteel is right and he got the idea from some website with that picture. Still doesn't make any sense but that is not unexpected either.


Oh it's a lot more than a picture (there's quite a bit of iconography). There's a whole narrative, njlauren kind of outlined it in the post right before mine. The only thing I'd really add to it is anti-communist propoganda. That Christianity and capitalism got bizzarly linked as some sort of nationalism during the red scare.

So some people will use the phrase Republican Jesus to represent the complete 180 that the religious right has taken from early Christianity. You know things like living in communes and giving all ones wealth to the church elders.






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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 8:59:18 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

The Nicene and Apostolic creeds simply state what they believed Jesus to be...

That's an exceedingly thin characterization of the creeds. The Nicene and Apostolic creeds embody the principle tenets, the things to be held true, of the Church's theological understanding of the canonical gospels. And what do you mean by saying "they believed," them, those guys in the past. The Nicene and Apostolic creeds continue to stand as Christianity's principle liturgical confessions of faith.

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

First of all, those creeds were man made, they came about in the 4th century and are not in the bible

First of all let's assume you know that the Bible is man-made too, and go nowhere from there.

K.



In modern Christianity the creeds are part of the faith, but only part of it, to reduce Christianity to the creeds is like the reader's digest version of it, it reduces everything to being about who Christ was (born of the virgin, sacrificed by his father on the Cross, the trinity) while it ignores what he was. The creeds are maybe a page, the canonical Bible dwarfs it, and most of it is full of what Christ taught people to do, both through words and through the way he lived.

Of course the Bible is man made, something that believers love to forget, they did a poll not long ago and many Christians were shocked to find out that the bible they use didn't drop out of the sky fully formed or that the bible texts don't have an 'original version'. However, the Biblical texts were written in the 1st century when the stories of Christ were at the least close, the creeds were created by a group of Bishops 300 years later, in a deliberate design by committee kind of way, that represented a way to try and figure out who Christ was, and to base Christian belief on the creeds like that, is to do what Joseph Campbell said about fundamentalism, that it was like seeing steak on the menu and eating the menu.

Christ said something interesting, when asked what the law was, he didn't say believe I am God the trinity, he didn't say he was born of the virgin and so forth, he said that we should love one another as we love ourselves and God, that is the law (not surpising, given Jesus was of the Rabbinic judaism). Saying believing Christ is the son, and the trinity, born of a virgin, died on the cross to salve sins is losing sight of what Christ came here to do, it is taking the beliefs of orthodox Bishops and burying what Christ did.

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 9:10:10 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I think gotsteel is right and he got the idea from some website with that picture. Still doesn't make any sense but that is not unexpected either.


Oh it's a lot more than a picture (there's quite a bit of iconography). There's a whole narrative, njlauren kind of outlined it in the post right before mine. The only thing I'd really add to it is anti-communist propoganda. That Christianity and capitalism got bizzarly linked as some sort of nationalism during the red scare.

So some people will use the phrase Republican Jesus to represent the complete 180 that the religious right has taken from early Christianity. You know things like living in communes and giving all ones wealth to the church elders.







Yep and it is what the Pope is railing against, the US Bishops drank the cool aid and between wanting political power and trying to assert they 'controlled' Catholics (a joke, given that 80%+ of Catholics choose their own faith and don't give a crap what the Bishops or Vatican say on many issues,54% of Catholics support same sex marriage, unlike the Bishops 85% of them support civil rights laws protecting Gays, and most think their stance on birth control is idiotic)....they have distilled Christianity down to issues of sexuality and abortion and in the process deliberately ignoring everything else, in large part to curry favor with politicians, with with Bishops pretty much endorsing anyone who is anti abortion and anti gay, while ignoring their other non Catholic actions, the Pope has a point. Unlike the Bishops and the Vatican, he has spent a lifetime with the poor and dispossessed, and unlike the Vatican elite living in their palaces and such, he knows the kind of real evil is out there, and it isn't following rigid ideology, it is recognizing the very real evils of excess greed and what it does to people. To the Vatican and the Bishops, the poor are someone to preach about on Sunday with words, then ignore during the week, to the Pope they are something you spend your lives trying to make their lives better, big difference. And he certainly doesn't believe that the Rich are blessed or deserve huge tax breaks so they can have more wealth and income, and won't exactly condone as Bishops and the Evangelicals have, exploiting third world labor so rich shareholders and executives can get even richer through the price of stock. Shareholder management is one of the most un-Christian things out there, it is generally a force to hurt most people at the expense of the very few.

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 9:12:32 AM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


Well then how do you define "Right" because Christian Evangelicals from Andrew Jackson to William Jennings Bryant and into the mid 1970s (many even today) were always populists and small d democrats. In fact, were it not for the complete and total embrace of Abortion on Demand and Homosexual Marriage, many Evangelicals would still be in lock step the Big D Democrats.

Not true, the reason that the evangelicals of Williams Jenning Bryan and populism went over to the republican party happened when the democrats passed the civil rights law. It wasn't abortion and homosexuality that moved evangelicals to the GOP, it was over civil rights. The Willims Jenning Bryan evangelicals were part of what HL Mencken called the "KKK branch" of the Democrats, they were based in the farm belt and down south where the KKK was strongest, and along with the anti wall street and bank mantra they also were racists as well. The civil rights movement happened before ROE and certainly long before gay rights was even a blip on the roadmap..

What happened was that the GOP, after using the southern Strategy, looked around and realized that the evangelicals represented a potent block who were seething about issues like abortion and later on gays, and the GOP at that point started with using social issues as 'wedge issues". The GOP before Reagan didn't give a crap about social issues, neither abortion nor gays were in the GOP platform until the Reagan era, but the evangelicals were already in the GOP fold long before that because of the end of Jim Crow.




Yeah... No.

Fullbright, Faubus, Hollings, Byrd and the rest of that Southern Segregationist bunch stayed Democrats until they started getting voted out or retired from office. Southern Senators, Congressmen, Governors and local elected pols remained staunch Democrats and held a solid majority in the south, especially on the local level until the late 80's,

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 9:52:55 AM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
Of course the Bible is man made, something that believers love to forget

Not necessarily. Certainly within orthodox theology, the Bible is seen as divinely inspired, not divinely dictated. Move away from that (like the Mormons) and you're sailing in heretical waters. There's a good argument the King James Only movement is heretical for that very reason. Overall, Christianity is not primarily a faith based on personal revelation. That's been the case for centuries.

On the OP, trying to fit Jesus into the left/right spectrum doesn't work. The society he existed in is simply too early to try and shoehorn it into an analysis taken from the French Revolution. While you can arguably do so with earlier movements (like some of the Christian sects that existed in the 16th century), I don't think you can validly do so with the ancient world. The cultural frames of reference are too different.

On the Pope, it seems to me that the significance has been overly stated by both his supporters and opponents. The Catholic Church has always combined being (small c) conservative on social issues with being pretty hostile to commercialism and materialism, and hence capitalism, when it comes to economics. That's certainly been the case since the late 19th century. It supports the redistribution of wealth, for example, although it does support the concept of private property.

The new Pope hasn't caused some kind of radical seismic shift. He's simply choosing to put a different emphasis on which parts of Catholic teaching to focus on. Those were already in place before this Pope and they will carry on being there after he ceases to hold the position.

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RE: Why does Pope Francis hate Republican Jesus? - 11/28/2013 9:57:14 AM   
GotSteel


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http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Republican_Jesus






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