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RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 7:35:53 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Oh, christ moonie, another bit of miasmatic foolishness I have to add to my reading list?  Perhaps when I am certain that I will be sent on the wings of angels before I will finish it, I will slip it into the reading order.

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RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 7:44:54 AM   
hot4bondage


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Almost as ridiculous as this notion that free enterprise can organise itself in everybody's best interests without any regulation, yes.


Who is trumpeting no regulation?



His strawman. Or maybe not. What about garage sales? They tend to do pretty well on their own. How will they be assimilated?

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 7:49:00 AM   
cloudboy


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You don't know what you are talking about and are out of your depth. Communism itself is not synonymous with dictatorship.

Communism did not crush the souls of Russian and East Europeans, dictatorship did under monopolist Communist Party Rule. What strangles the human spirit is a lack of influence and control over one's environment and an ability to exercise basic freedoms --- this kind of oppression is tied living under an undemocratic, authoritarian government that operates a rigged economy.

Naturally dictatorial leaders use some kind of misleading rhetoric to defend and rationalize their actions --- Stalin and Mao used "Communist Reasons" whereas other dictatorships used "the fatherland" or "the motherland" or "religion" or "free markets."

You cannot identify Communism by reference to the USSR, China, and Cuba any more than you could identify religion to by reference to Iran an Isreal (where it's central to the state.)

When people cooperate and want to do something, they can make different kinds of systems work --- an example is the NFL --- revenue sharing, a salary cap, collective bargaining, etc. By promoting group interests first, all individual interests are also well served.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 8:14:50 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Isn't the NFL, or wasn't it until recently 'non-profit'?  Talk about your commie operations, hah?

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 9:44:52 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Lenin's sales pitch was "peace, land, and bread." If that's all it took, then why the fuck couldn't the previous regime just give them peace, land, and bread?


Yes. Indeed.

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RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 10:46:30 AM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


You don't know what you are talking about and are out of your depth. Communism itself is not synonymous with dictatorship.

Communism did not crush the souls of Russian and East Europeans, dictatorship did under monopolist Communist Party Rule. What strangles the human spirit is a lack of influence and control over one's environment and an ability to exercise basic freedoms --- this kind of oppression is tied living under an undemocratic, authoritarian government that operates a rigged economy.

Naturally dictatorial leaders use some kind of misleading rhetoric to defend and rationalize their actions --- Stalin and Mao used "Communist Reasons" whereas other dictatorships used "the fatherland" or "the motherland" or "religion" or "free markets."

You cannot identify Communism by reference to the USSR, China, and Cuba any more than you could identify religion to by reference to Iran an Isreal (where it's central to the state.)

When people cooperate and want to do something, they can make different kinds of systems work --- an example is the NFL --- revenue sharing, a salary cap, collective bargaining, etc. By promoting group interests first, all individual interests are also well served.


It seems to me it's the nature of the beast. Where has communism ever worked out well ?


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RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 10:54:51 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		where has totalitarianism? republicanism?  democatism?  capitalism?


Kibbutzes in Israel?  There are about 11,000 employee owned businesses in the US, with about 400 worker cooperatives, and they seem to have worked out well, and that is a communistic principle.




_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 11:12:05 AM   
Milesnmiles


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Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline 		The problem with all forms of government; Communism, Democracy, etc. is who is going to run it.

There have been a few rulers in history that have done an "okay job" but most have been corrupted by the job.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Take Communism, it is a great idea, if everyone buys into it but someone has to divide things up. What if he decides to keep a little extra for him self? There goes the great idea of Communism.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 1:23:53 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Peace, Bread, and Land was just empty propaganda because the Bolsheviks provided none of it. Russians came to live in a "state of war," hunger, and confiscated lands.

This was a bait and switch, not unlike George Bush being a moderate, "compassionate" conservative.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/8/2014 1:26:39 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 1:26:16 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		IN THE WEST

IN THE USA

All thriving nations have mixed economies. Nations that fall behind attach themselves to one moniker with a death grip -- as if flexibility was an anathema. Look at the difference between China and Cuba --- China went with a mixed economy while Cuba has stuck to extremes.

Look at the difference between the USA in the gilded age and what happened afterward.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/8/2014 1:28:42 PM >

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 2:47:01 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


You don't know what you are talking about and are out of your depth. Communism itself is not synonymous with dictatorship.

Communism did not crush the souls of Russian and East Europeans, dictatorship did under monopolist Communist Party Rule. What strangles the human spirit is a lack of influence and control over one's environment and an ability to exercise basic freedoms --- this kind of oppression is tied living under an undemocratic, authoritarian government that operates a rigged economy.

Naturally dictatorial leaders use some kind of misleading rhetoric to defend and rationalize their actions --- Stalin and Mao used "Communist Reasons" whereas other dictatorships used "the fatherland" or "the motherland" or "religion" or "free markets."

You cannot identify Communism by reference to the USSR, China, and Cuba any more than you could identify religion to by reference to Iran an Isreal (where it's central to the state.)

When people cooperate and want to do something, they can make different kinds of systems work --- an example is the NFL --- revenue sharing, a salary cap, collective bargaining, etc. By promoting group interests first, all individual interests are also well served.


It seems to me it's the nature of the beast. Where has communism ever worked out well ?


Numerous communes and the early Christian church amongst others.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 3:06:58 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

The problem with all forms of government; Communism, Democracy, etc. is who is going to run it.

There have been a few rulers in history that have done an "okay job" but most have been corrupted by the job.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Take Communism, it is a great idea, if everyone buys into it but someone has to divide things up. What if he decides to keep a little extra for him self? There goes the great idea of Communism.



Communism is not good even as an abstract idea, because omologation to the lowest is never good, and also because people are different in many ways. By the way with comunism you can't keep a little extra for yourself as everything is state's property, but you can be the one who decide who uses what and how much, and this is a lot of power.

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RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 3:19:20 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
By the way with comunism you can't keep a little extra for yourself as everything is state's property

Even in anarcho-communism? Blimey.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 3:20:10 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		even communists wouldn't declare it arch-neo-communism, would they?

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 3:20:56 PM   
Apocalypso


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Joined: 4/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

even communists wouldn't declare it arch-neo-communism, would they?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oShTJ90fC34

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 7:57:58 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


You don't know what you are talking about and are out of your depth. Communism itself is not synonymous with dictatorship.

Communism did not crush the souls of Russian and East Europeans, dictatorship did under monopolist Communist Party Rule. What strangles the human spirit is a lack of influence and control over one's environment and an ability to exercise basic freedoms --- this kind of oppression is tied living under an undemocratic, authoritarian government that operates a rigged economy.

Naturally dictatorial leaders use some kind of misleading rhetoric to defend and rationalize their actions --- Stalin and Mao used "Communist Reasons" whereas other dictatorships used "the fatherland" or "the motherland" or "religion" or "free markets."

You cannot identify Communism by reference to the USSR, China, and Cuba any more than you could identify religion to by reference to Iran an Isreal (where it's central to the state.)

When people cooperate and want to do something, they can make different kinds of systems work --- an example is the NFL --- revenue sharing, a salary cap, collective bargaining, etc. By promoting group interests first, all individual interests are also well served.



Yep. You're trying to be funny, and failing miserably at it.

Trying to dismiss the USSR as not real Communism, and therefore irrelevant, is either sheer stupidity, evidence of serious mental illness, or a truly evil lie. Communism is incompatible with human nature, therefore any attempt to impose it MUST be by authoritarian means.

Don't go pulling various socialistic programs, or individual collectivist enterprises out of your ass, and claiming it is communism that works. As the lefties so love to point out, Socialism and Communism are not the same thing.

And FYI, my stepfather was a Socialist Worker's Party recruiter, well past the day the draft board rejected him as politically undesireable. The very first lessons I got in free enterprise and the importance of individual initiative came when mom told me we couldn't go home until we finished selling all our copies of The Militant. I don't reject Communism because I was told it was baa-aaad, I reject it because a 6 year old can figure out it's a socio-political philosophy for shitheads, and those dumb enough to buy in.



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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/8/2014 8:43:38 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


You don't know what you are talking about and are out of your depth. Communism itself is not synonymous with dictatorship.

Communism did not crush the souls of Russian and East Europeans, dictatorship did under monopolist Communist Party Rule. What strangles the human spirit is a lack of influence and control over one's environment and an ability to exercise basic freedoms --- this kind of oppression is tied living under an undemocratic, authoritarian government that operates a rigged economy.

Naturally dictatorial leaders use some kind of misleading rhetoric to defend and rationalize their actions --- Stalin and Mao used "Communist Reasons" whereas other dictatorships used "the fatherland" or "the motherland" or "religion" or "free markets."

You cannot identify Communism by reference to the USSR, China, and Cuba any more than you could identify religion to by reference to Iran an Isreal (where it's central to the state.)

When people cooperate and want to do something, they can make different kinds of systems work --- an example is the NFL --- revenue sharing, a salary cap, collective bargaining, etc. By promoting group interests first, all individual interests are also well served.



The lunatic fringe uses the term communism/communist not for accuracy but for the icky affect.

Similar to terms like "the plague" or "bestiality" or "pedophile", calling someone a "communist" is for character assignation,not for identification.

This is why republicans are always using these terms for Americans, as a normal course of business....to be as ugly as possible.




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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 5:14:57 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:


Trying to dismiss the USSR as not real Communism, and therefore irrelevant, is either sheer stupidity, evidence of serious mental illness, or a truly evil lie. Communism is incompatible with human nature, therefore any attempt to impose it MUST be by authoritarian means.


The serious mental illness would be demonstrated by those who would call the USSR 'real' communism, anymore than they would call the US 'real' capitalists or 'real' Libertarians.

These theoretical constructs, 'free markets', 'ownership' by the people, and other Utopian (and most of these slices of ideas came from Utopia.... simply are not anything other than hallucination.

Where (and all these end up in the same place) are the 'people' in control of their own destiny? Either working in symbiosis (capitalism), or in communality (communism) or each to their own wonts and guided into the common good by that good ol 'invisible hand' (libertarianism)?

   




_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 7:07:10 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59



The lunatic fringe uses the term communism/communist not for accuracy but for the icky affect.

Similar to terms like "the plague" or "bestiality" or "pedophile", calling someone a "communist" is for character assignation,not for identification.

This is why republicans are always using these terms for Americans, as a normal course of business....to be as ugly as possible.





In other words for the same reasons democrats try to paint the right as racist and homophobic. And you are right, it is very ugly

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone - 1/9/2014 7:54:50 AM   
cloudboy


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You are right. It's their equivalent to Lenin's "Peace, Bread, and Land." In the past, too, it was the USA's way to justify a whole series of foreign misadventures.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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