RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge

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bubbabarrett31 -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 9:44:04 PM)
so was religion created to control knowledge? if so then that means if you are not religious then you shall continue to gain knowledge, and there is only so much to be gained that means that there is an end, an answer to what you seek, the correct answer to everything, to every possible question and if you had the answer to every possible question then that would mean you know the answer to the ultimate question. then you still have something to strive for in your journey of life, the pursuit of knowledge. once again you are making the same choice you would have made if you were religious. both have the same answer. the answer to the ultimate question. and of the answer to the ultimate question which is the reason that religion was created to control the masses and bring order to the the people, the only thing that separates us from any of his creations is our ability to think we are questioning things right but no matter what every thing comes out the same we real have no choice so god did create slaves. i think i explained that correctly what do you think? can you help me clarify my thoughts. one moment while i put them together. your opinions are welcome maybe they are some thing i'm missing in all this

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 9:58:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 Knowledge is not evil, does not “become” evil and too much knowledge is not evil. What you choose to do with knowledge is what is or is not evil. Let's say that I (as God) tell you that you as an individual with freewill you can choose as you will. Then I lock you in a castle and remove anything that I disagree with. You are no longer free to choose. You are not CHOOSING to do good. You are forced to only do what I want. In order for man to "choose" good, there had to at least be an alternative option. Otherwise all God created was a couple of slaves. I don't see God as locking us in a castle. As I see it, all choices have consequences and God has not taken away any choices. We can jump off a cliff to the rocks below and at best the consequences to that are going to painful best so most people don't choose to jump off cliffs, not because the were forced or because that choice was taken away but because they didn't think it was a very good idea. quote: And lets not forget that in this same story there was another tree in the garden called “The Tree of Life.” According to the Bible had they eaten off of that tree they would have lived forever. So along with the tree that God essentially called “death” he also gave them a tree that he called “life.” The choice was up to them which fruit to eat. (Again God giving man freewill.) Yep. quote: God is not evil. God is a creator. What people do with His creations is what defines good and evil in us. God never called the tree evil. Eating from the tree was not the sin. It only opened the door to the knowledge of sin to man. From that time on their innocence was lost and from then on they had to choose between good and evil. Interesting but I would have to differ. Eating of the tree would in of it self be saying to God we are now going to decide for ourselves what is good and evil and no longer seek out God's opinion on the matter and thus would take to themselves the knowledge of good and evil. quote: God did not create religion. Religion is entirely a man made concept. In that sense, yes it is an attempt to control people and knowledge Religion? Perhaps not but it is interesting to note that man seems to have been "created" with the desire to worship. quote: so didn't god also instruct them not to eat from the tree of life also, because eternal life would make them godly and he would not create some thing that was his equal it's not possible to "create an equal". because a you create it you are better than it you made it right. It was more like he prevented them from getting to the tree of life. As for what eternal life would make them, I think God did them a favor in preventing them from reaching the tree of life. If you ask, most people say they don't want to live forever and just think, what with what most people do with their lives, eternal life would mean there would be no limit to how bad their lives could get. quote: so if they did eat from the tree of life they would of been banished from the garden also, so god actually did not give them a choice. did he create slaves, and because religion was created to control man, he is the master and man is his slave. the free will is not a concept god would of given to something he created. it was imposed by the people who created religion to make the people think they had a choice. when actually no matter which choice they made it had the same results. its like a parallel universe there was decision made but it had only one result, that was , the next thing he had planned. and there would be no way of knowing, "what if", because there is no way to go back. if you could go back and change the decision you made then that means you would have gained knowledge of the situation and could change your decision so that would make that level of knowledge a sin because it would make you more godly. if you could change his plan. so free will is out the window now. and i'm back to saying we are slaves to god and not servants right. Yes we can be slaves of God but of our own free will, because we choose to be. quote: so knowledge is a sin correct I don't believe so.

EdBowie -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 9:58:43 PM)
You seem to be implying that religion was dreamed up and patented by someone. It is a social artifact. It is hard wired into the human brain to try to categorize its environment in ways that make it easier to get what it wants. Kids learn to lie at around 2 1/2 years. Primates learn to handle currency, and then steal it from other primates as adults. And again, 'knowing' isn't an absolute thing, it is perfectly possible to fill one's mind with 'knowledge' that is easily disproven by rational means. Because the human awareness and human societies are structured around cognitive dissonance, access to power naturally flows along lines of deceit. As PT Barnum may have said: 'There's a sucker born every minute, and 2 to take him'. Some scoundrels wrap themselves in patriotism to get their power addiction fed, others use racism, politics, sex... and some use religion. quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 so was religion created to control knowledge? if so then that means if you are not religious then you shall continue to gain knowledge, and there is only so much to be gained that means that there is an end, an answer to what you seek, the correct answer to everything, to every possible question and if you had the answer to every possible question then that would mean you know the answer to the ultimate question. then you still have something to strive for in your journey of life, the pursuit of knowledge. once again you are making the same choice you would have made if you were religious. both have the same answer. the answer to the ultimate question. and of the answer to the ultimate question which is the reason that religion was created to control the masses and bring order to the the people, the only thing that separates us from any of his creations is our ability to think we are questioning things right but no matter what every thing comes out the same we real have no choice so god did create slaves. i think i explained that correctly what do you think? can you help me clarify my thoughts. one moment while i put them together. your opinions are welcome maybe they are some thing i'm missing in all this

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 10:00:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie In other words, you failed to provide any such direct quote, you failed to grasp, much less answer the rational questions that other people are asking you, and are running on pure projection and impotent trolling. quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie There is no argument, and you can't provide a single direct quote where I've written any such thing. But then again, you aren't here for honest discourse, are you? As far as your naturam transcendentem, quae manetgames, that dishonest ruse is even older than Aramaic. You've got nothing. quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Awww... how cute, a strawman logical fallacy. The threat was that they would die on the day they disobeyed. And don't waste time playing games with the definition of 'day'. Then why are you trying to play games. You are the one with the strawman, trying to change the argument to suit you instead of dealing with it as is. If you have done your homework, you should know that the original languages of the Bible did not include English. So the word used meant time period and could mean 24hrs or thousands of years. In fact at one place in the Bible it says that a thousand years is but a "day" in God's eye and interestingly Adam and Eve lived less than a thousand years. quote: So much for that whole 'Shall not bear false witness' thing, hmmm? Yeah how about that. Really then why didn't address what I said instead this piece of drivel. The actual truth is that they died the same "day" but you endeavored to make it a "straw man" by implying that that "day" had to be shorter than their lives. Quite honestly you seem to be the one that isn't "here for honest discourse" and it seems that except for anger it is you that has nothing to say. What in the world are you babbling about?

EdBowie -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 10:02:24 PM)
Not you... because that would be a rules violation, right? quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles What in the world are you babbling about?

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 10:11:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 so was religion created to control knowledge? I don't think so. quote: if so then that means if you are not religious then you shall continue to gain knowledge, and there is only so much to be gained that means that there is an end, an answer to what you seek, the correct answer to everything, to every possible question and if you had the answer to every possible question then that would mean you know the answer to the ultimate question. Ultimate question? Have you been reading "Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe" again? quote: then you still have something to strive for in your journey of life, the pursuit of knowledge. Amongst other things. quote: once again you are making the same choice you would have made if you were religious. Probably not. quote: both have the same answer. the answer to the ultimate question. and of the answer to the ultimate question which is the reason that religion was created to control the masses and bring order to the the people, the only thing that separates us from any of his creations is our ability to think we are questioning things right but no matter what every thing comes out the same we real have no choice so god did create slaves. Ultimate question again? You sure you haven't been reading "Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe"? quote: i think i explained that correctly what do you think? can you help me clarify my thoughts. one moment while i put them together. your opinions are welcome maybe they are some thing i'm missing in all this Well this last post seemed a bit sleep deprived, what with all the talk about an ultimate question that you never defined.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 10:24:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 so didn't god also instruct them not to eat from the tree of life also, because eternal life would make them godly and he would not create some thing that was his equal it's not possible to "create an equal". because a you create it you are better than it you made it right. so if they did eat from the tree of life they would of been banished from the garden also, so god actually did not give them a choice. did he create slaves, and because religion was created to control man, he is the master and man is his slave. the free will is not a concept god would of given to something he created. it was imposed by the people who created religion to make the people think they had a choice. when actually no matter which choice they made it had the same results. its like a parallel universe there was decision made but it had only one result, that was , the next thing he had planned. and there would be no way of knowing, "what if", because there is no way to go back. if you could go back and change the decision you made then that means you would have gained knowledge of the situation and could change your decision so that would make that level of knowledge a sin because it would make you more godly. if you could change his plan. so free will is out the window now. and i'm back to saying we are slaves to god and not servants right. so knowledge is a sin correct Wow- watch the run on sentences. Its getting very hard to figure out what you are asking. God did not create man as an equal. He created man in his own likeness and image. (Much like a sculptor would create a statue.) God did not instruct them not to eat from the tree of life. The ONLY tree they were told not to eat from was the tree of knowledge. Eternal life would not make them equal to God. Eternal life would have allowed them to live forever here on earth. Nope they would not have been banished from the garden for eating from the tree of life. God is the creator. If we choose to be servants or slaves to him that is our choice to make. God does not force anyone to serve Him. That is part of our freewill. Freewill was not created by man. Freewill is something God created us with. Your freewill (the fact that are free to choose or not choose Him) is part of God's plan. Knowledge cannot make you more godly no matter how much of it you obtain. And again no, knowledge is not a sin. What you DO with knowledge is what does or does not become sin. Doing- not knowing.

bubbabarrett31 -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 10:27:25 PM)
yes maybe a little sleep deprived, but non the less, i did forget to define the ultimate question the one that created the spark that became the fire of religion.the question being what happens after you die?. if you can answer that you have found the answer to everything. it is the end and the only way to answer that is to die. so no one god created can truthfully answer the question. right so either side of the argument has the same answer "unknown" correct

bubbabarrett31 -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 10:37:38 PM)
i have never read the ultimate guide to the universe. now i have to because it sounds intriguing can you give me info on that. i have been to see stephen hawkins speak three times the last two were the same subject but kinda a little revised the second time. I was entitled "the universe in a nutshell" great lecture i'm not sure how to find it but maybe you can look it up and every since then i've been searching for the answers to these questions i cant get off my mind. sleep deprived definitely an accurate observation the speeches were in 1999 and early 2000 if i recall correctly

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 10:42:54 PM)
If that is all you are seeking the answer to, then yes. Either religion or the search for knowledge will serve you well and it probably does not matter much which one you choose to do. Of course there are many of us who do not seek "religion" but instead practice spirituality. Spirituality is not about seeking knowledge; its about seeking connection with something beyond the physical realm. Those who are spiritual desire something much much deeper than answering the mundane question of "what happens after I die?" quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 yes maybe a little sleep deprived, but non the less, i did forget to define the ultimate question the one that created the spark that became the fire of religion.the question being what happens after you die?. if you can answer that you have found the answer to everything. it is the end and the only way to answer that is to die. so no one god created can truthfully answer the question. right so either side of the argument has the same answer "unknown" correct

Kirata -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 10:49:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 the question being what happens after you die?. if you can answer that you have found the answer to everything. I suspect not everything. K.

EdBowie -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 10:52:26 PM)
It is also bookended with the question of who were you before you were born? quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 the question being what happens after you die?. if you can answer that you have found the answer to everything. I suspect not everything. K.

bubbabarrett31 -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 10:54:39 PM)
2 Chronicles 1:11 God said to Solomon, “Since this is your heart’s desire and you have not asked for wealth, possessions or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king, 2 Chronicles 1:10-12 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 2 Chronicles 1:12 therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you. And I will also give you wealth, possessions and honor, such as no king who was before you ever had and none after you will have.” so here its saying that god gave knowledge to rule the people. So if you rule the people you are god like right and that's not right because he created everyone, and everyone is equal in his eyes. maybe my confusion is steaming from the bible itself i cant fathom how so many people fallow a book that was written hundreds of years after the stories took place which took place over hundreds of years as a basis of fact to live their life by. that is the problem i keep running into. any opinion on why this causes problems i cant find a resource to cross reference the actual facts embedded with in the bible. maybe that would be the pursuit of knowledge that would be a sin not using it for evil but for knowledge.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 11:09:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 2 Chronicles 1:11 God said to Solomon, “Since this is your heart’s desire and you have not asked for wealth, possessions or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king, 2 Chronicles 1:10-12 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations 2 Chronicles 1:12 therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you. And I will also give you wealth, possessions and honor, such as no king who was before you ever had and none after you will have.” so here its saying that god gave knowledge to rule the people. So if you rule the people you are god like right and that's not right because he created everyone, and everyone is equal in his eyes. maybe my confusion is steaming from the bible itself i cant fathom how so many people fallow a book that was written hundreds of years after the stories took place which took place over hundreds of years as a basis of fact to live their life by. that is the problem i keep running into. any opinion on why this causes problems i cant find a resource to cross reference the actual facts embedded with in the bible. maybe that would be the pursuit of knowledge that would be a sin not using it for evil but for knowledge. I don't see where God told Solomon he was god like just because he had knowledge or because he was a ruler. In fact it is implied in the Bible that a ruler is actually to be the servant to the people. If you are really interested in discussing this from a Christian perspective then you are not going to address much of Christianity in the old testament. Christianity by definition is walking in the way of "The Christ." People in many countries follow a book of laws that was written hundreds of years ago. Ours is called "The Constitution of the United States of America." Our forefathers arrived here over 400 years ago. We still quote them, live by their laws, remember their traditions, honor them. There is not much difference. People follow a certain creed or code of ethics because something in them agrees with what code of ethics stands for.

bubbabarrett31 -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 11:42:10 PM)
point taken, but did they have documented written history during that time , honest question. if so who controlled the documents and translated them through out the years of power struggles and wars of tribes and did they translate correctly or did they minipulate the words to help control the people by making them fear hell. did they do any thing to govern what was kept as record. that makes me think deeper into what i really believe and i'm tring to straghten that out any suggestions on literature to help me cross referance the stories or whats being said in the confusing tounge of the day.

Phydeaux -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 11:55:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 point taken, but did they have documented written history during that time , honest question. if so who controlled the documents and translated them through out the years of power struggles and wars of tribes and did they translate correctly or did they minipulate the words to help control the people by making them fear hell. did they do any thing to govern what was kept as record. that makes me think deeper into what i really believe and i'm tring to straghten that out any suggestions on literature to help me cross referance the stories or whats being said in the confusing tounge of the day. Just like you have people that can compete in the memory contests and accurately remember thousands of things, many cultures have develop people that memorize oral histories and pass them down accurately over generations. There have been researchers into this - and some of the studies were amazing. Now, here is what I think is the amazing thing about christianity. Its not only christ dying and being raised from the dead. Its that 11 men that lived with him, saw him daily, worked with him. Saw enough to believe and to go to all ends of the earth preaching the gospel. Men may with difficulty die for a good man or a noble cause. But they will not die for something they know is a lie. And many of the disciples died in horrible fashion: crucifiction (upside down), impalement, stoning, flaying. And its not just the lives of people 2000 years ago. God continues to speak and answer the prayers of those that seek him.

bubbabarrett31 -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/9/2014 12:17:28 AM)
thank you for sharing your knowledge every one but i still want more opinions on the subject before i form one of my on evry one so far has been leaning towards the phrase i get most often, but noone has yet said the words so i'll throw it out there maybe it will help open the toung of some people just reading ond keeping there comments to their self the phrase is "you got to have faith" and supposidly it answers all the questions. looking foward to readind the post on that but in retro specct you replace knowledge with faith rite or no

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/9/2014 4:08:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY ... Knowledge cannot make you more godly no matter how much of it you obtain. ... I pretty much agreed with the rest but thought, the universe is filled with God's infinite wisdom and so the more knowledge we take in, the better we would know the mind of God and thus would help us draw closer to God.

mnottertail -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/9/2014 4:46:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And as to your other dare, fine lets test your sinful knowledge. Why did Jesus kill the fig tree? There were no fig on it and so Jesus killed it so he could teach his disciple a lesson. why do you ask? Lol, the depth and breath of your knowledge is as unastounding as the sun rising from the east. Thanks. Q.E.D.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/9/2014 4:56:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 yes maybe a little sleep deprived, but non the less, i did forget to define the ultimate question the one that created the spark that became the fire of religion.the question being what happens after you die?. if you can answer that you have found the answer to everything. it is the end and the only way to answer that is to die. so no one god created can truthfully answer the question. right so either side of the argument has the same answer "unknown" correct Thanks. Okay. The "Ultimate Question", "what happens after you die?" Well you are correct, there aren't many now a days coming back from the dead to let us know "what happens after you die". I believe that most religions were created to give an answer to that very question. If you are interested in what the Bible says, at Ecclesiastes 9:5 it says; "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" so basically the dead no longer exist but the Bible does hold out the hope of the resurrection back to the earth. The resurrection has been described as God keeps you in his memory and can completely reconstruct you from that memory so that you will seamlessly be exactly who you were when you died, minus whatever caused your death. Like wakening from a deep sleep.

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