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Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/9/2014 3:47:05 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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This is kind of chilling.

quote:

In a ruling that could reshape the rules for online consumer reviews, a Virginia court has ruled that the popular website Yelp must turn over the names of seven reviewers who anonymously criticized a prominent local carpet cleaning business.

The case revolves around negative feedback against Virginia-based Hadeed Carpet Cleaning. The owner, Joe Hadeed, said the users leaving bad reviews were not real customers of the cleaning service — something that would violate Yelp’s terms of service. His attorneys issued a subpoena demanding the names of seven anonymous reviewers, and a judge in Alexandria ruled that Yelp had to comply.

The Virginia Court of Appeals agreed this week, ruling that the comments were not protected First Amendment opinions if the Yelp users were not customers and thus were making false claims.

...

If “the reviewer was never a customer of the business, then the review is not an opinion; instead, the review is based on a false statement” and not subject to First Amendment protection, the opinion stated.

Mr. Hadeed said his company could not “match defendants’ reviews with actual customers in its database.”

Senior Judge James W. Haley Jr. stated in a separate opinion that agreed in part and dissented in part with the majority that Mr. Hadeed had not proved that the reviewers were not customers — he only suspected they were not.
“A business subject to critical commentary should not be permitted to force the disclosure of the identity of anonymous commentators simply by alleging that those commentators may not be customers because they cannot identify them in their database,” the judge said, adding that Mr. Hadeed’s complaints were likely a “self-serving argument.”

The Washington Post filed a friend of the court brief in support of Yelp, as did Gannett Co. Inc., the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press and the American Society of News Editors.



I generally take online reviews from sites like Yelp with a grain of salt anyway. I've even heard of a service which supposedly cleans up one's reputation on the internet and offers to get rid of bad reviews of businesses. I don't know how that works, nor does there appear to be a way to screen out good reviews of businesses which might be false. I've read about "click farms" where people are paid to click on "Like" for a targeted business's Facebook.

And how can someone know from an anonymous review whether they were customers or not? What if it turns out that these anonymous reviewers really were customers of this business? Would the court have to reverse its ruling? Would the plaintiff have to pay a penalty for bringing forth a false and frivolous lawsuit?

I always find it interesting how businesspeople always talk about how government should not interfere in the private sector and how capitalism is about "freedom," and yet, they go and pull something like this.
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RE: Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/9/2014 9:08:54 AM   
EdBowie


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Business people will pull all sorts of things.. including going on Yelp and spreading false stories of food poisoning at a competitor's restaurant, etc.



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RE: Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/9/2014 9:37:38 AM   
shiftyw


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From: The Shire
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Yelp takes it further.
They request you advertise with them- and they censor which reviews people can see, rather than just seeing all of them.
Plus- like the above poster says- competing business can post negative reviews.

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RE: Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/9/2014 10:20:19 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I generally take online reviews from sites like Yelp with a grain of salt anyway.

I have found that reviews on Yelp are reasonably accurate, Angies List to me is a scam and any business can claim they got great reviews or some sorta "Award"/number 1 on their list but if you don't pay to be a member you will never know if the business is actually falsely advertising..

with any reviews or complaint search I always try to find as many different sources as possible, including the local BBB, govt regulators (if their industry is regulated).. If a business has the same complaints at several different sites, then I cross them off my list.. Sometimes I will do a search after I have experienced bad service etc.. like a certain McDs I went to.. I wrote an anon bad review and even sent a complaint to the local Health Dept (which was a first for me).. other poor reviews were already on yelp.. it was the worst McDs I have ever been in (no hand soap, no toilet paper- on more than one day too- counter staff were non-caring about that, I had to ask twice for hand soap- which makes me ask, FFS how clean were the food preparers??????).. I don't think I have been to any McDs since..

But since I do anon reviews, how does the below-par business in Virginia get to claim people like me wasn't a customer? But what I find chilling is the growing practice of some businesses including a high fine of several thousand dollars (citing a non-disparagement clause) for giving a bad review, even if the customer never did get the product/service..
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/26/couple-faces-3500-fine-negative-online-review/

that said, some US businesses are quite rabid.. they will file complaints with various govt depts against competitors over anything such as violating the patriot act or tax evasion, etc no matter if its true or just fabricated lies.. the object of the exercise is to shut the competitor down long enough to put them out of business..

eta- I actually suspect glowing reviews of a business.. they can write their own great reviews also, now cant they..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 1/9/2014 10:22:27 AM >


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RE: Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/9/2014 10:22:41 AM   
kalikshama


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If the reviews were detailed enough that the company could reasonably determine that no such customer existed, I'd support the decision. Reviewing a business for which one one is not a customer does violate the yelp TOS and a false negative review could be considered defamatory.

When I was looking for a new place, I ruled out several apartment complexes after reading reviews about their shoddy maintenance.

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RE: Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/9/2014 10:30:45 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

But what I find chilling is the growing practice of some businesses including a high fine of several thousand dollars (citing a non-disparagement clause) for giving a bad review, even if the customer never did get the product/service..
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/26/couple-faces-3500-fine-negative-online-review/


They have found a lawyer and filed a suit. I bet this makes new case law. I hope they get damages.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/couple-fined-3500-negative-review-fights-back-lawsuit/story?id=21249094

...After the Palmers took their story to a local television station, the nonprofit advocacy group Public Citizen volunteered to represent the couple, sending a letter last month to KlearGear.com, threatening to file a lawsuit against the e-commerce site unless it fixed the situation with a deadline of Dec. 16.

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RE: Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/9/2014 10:38:08 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

But what I find chilling is the growing practice of some businesses including a high fine of several thousand dollars (citing a non-disparagement clause) for giving a bad review, even if the customer never did get the product/service..
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/26/couple-faces-3500-fine-negative-online-review/


They have found a lawyer and filed a suit. I bet this makes new case law. I hope they get damages.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/couple-fined-3500-negative-review-fights-back-lawsuit/story?id=21249094

...After the Palmers took their story to a local television station, the nonprofit advocacy group Public Citizen volunteered to represent the couple, sending a letter last month to KlearGear.com, threatening to file a lawsuit against the e-commerce site unless it fixed the situation with a deadline of Dec. 16.

yeah but they aren't the only business using those clauses.. more and more businesses are slipping those into the "agreement" knowing that most people don't read the pages on pages of fine print.. to me its similar to having an arbitration clause in your contract where you can not go to court or go public with your complaint/case.. it all must be handled privately behind closed doors..

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RE: Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/9/2014 10:48:54 AM   
Rawni


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I ran the office for a cab company in CA that was trying to get rights to pick up customers in a city where only one cab company was allowed to pick up. Of course the petition with the city was public information and the only cab company in the city knew that the application had been submitted and the city was considering bringing in another company.

Suddenly we had a complaint about one of our drivers... no name of course, filed with the city. I had to investigate which of our drivers did this and why the situation occurred. There was only one driver that this could have been and I knew he hadn't done it, but I couldn't prove it. We went before the city on a certain date and that date was the following day and I still could not substantiate the claims of the person that filed the complaint, nor could I disprove it.

I knew it had to be someone from this other company, but how was I to prove it? This meant huge amounts of money if our company didn't get into the city where we often dropped people off and it made us look bad if while doing a drop off, someone there needed a cab, saw one of our cabs and they refused to assist them. Not to mention how it defamed our company in the first place.

So I finally looked up the name of the person that filed the complaint. I got her phone number and I called her house. Her elderly mother answered the phone and I asked for the owner of the other cab company.

"I'm sorry, they are out, who is calling?"

"Oh my name is so and so and I met them when I was in town last year and they told me to give them a call if I came back to town."

Busted.

The thing is, if I couldn't prove who made the complaint, I couldn't prove our innocence.

If I leave a review, I am willing to back that review up and have no problem with anyone knowing who I am. What? People are going to come beat me up or ruin me somehow? The thing is, if you are an employer and someone calls you to ask about a former employee and you tell them something bad, you can be subject to legal ramifications. Reviews and references have lost merit and can be risky. I don't know the answers to this... but something sure stinks.

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RE: Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/9/2014 1:15:11 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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I liked that scene in "Good Fellas" where Henry Hill torches the cabs for his boss "Toody."

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RE: Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/9/2014 2:04:53 PM   
FelineRanger


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Every so often there's another tempest in a teapot about online reviews. The last time it came up, someone had discovered that there were companies working both sides of the street with online reviews. Those companies would post glowing reviews to their "employers" and also post highly critical reviews of competitors. To tell the truth, I'm not sure what to think about this case. I am all for protecting privacy, especially as I have harped on the NSA on my Facebook page every time there's the least little thing about it. But a business owner also has to protect himself from unethical practices of rivals.

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RE: Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/9/2014 3:51:20 PM   
sloguy02246


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Joined: 11/5/2011
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FR

Maybe people who submit reviews of any type should no longer be able to do so anonymously.
Whether someone is going to trash or praise any business establishment, they should not be allowed to hide who they are.
Individual identification need not be printed with the review, but should be thorough and on file with the review service (and I don't mean just a bogus e-mail address).



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RE: Court Rules That Yelp Must ID Negative Reviewers - 1/10/2014 10:59:08 PM   
Phydeaux


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This is an interesting decision.

Long ago the supreme court held that a book publisher could not be held responsible for the content of the book.
That position was extended to internet agregators, comments on articles.

But it seems that principle has now been pierced.

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