Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (Full Version)

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phoenixchild -> Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 4:46:45 PM)

After reading another thread, i was wondering how others viewed instruction, correction, and discipline/punishment. Is there any difference in them, or are they just different words for the same thing? Personally, i believe they are three steps in an escalation of wrong behaviour.

Instruction: The Master tells the slave 'This is what I want said/done.'
Correction: If something is said/done wrong, a simple verbal (sometimes visual) correction to show the slave how the Master wants it done.
Disicipline/Punishment: You are not doing it My way, therefore your privilege of watching your favorite TV show will be taken away for one week. Or there could be a physical punishment.

Also, does positive re-enforcement or punishment get the slave more motivated to correct any wrong behaviour?




Ilyrium -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 4:50:52 PM)

Mentally, I consider instruction what I should do to please the Mistress.
I consider correction an early reminder of the instructions.
I consider discipline specifically the sacred realm of protocol.
And, I consider punishment to be reserved when I've been told, and corrected, and still don't perform to satisfaction.




DRAKE326 -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 5:00:46 PM)

As I have yet to actually be in such a situation and am learning still I find the questions intriguing. In my ideal dynamic discipline / punishment would be geared towards less physical and more mental things. I agree with the removing of a priviledge and only after a clear and concise discussion as to what the expectations were and how they were not met. Or as to what previously agreed upon rule was violated. Correction could come from either a sub or a Dom. If there is a formal contract and some disagreement it is not to be assumed the Dom is always corrected. A sub or slave in my world is still a human being. Instruction is very well defined by the OP. I think phoenixchild has some intelligent questions that have been asked. I may well learn more as I see other responses to this thread.
When we stop learning.
That is when we stop living.




Kana -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 5:06:24 PM)

Instruction is teaching, it's an educational minute.
Correction is just that, cleaning up mistakes
Discipline and punishment are two separate things.
Discipline is the strength of character to be consistent on a daily basis.
Punishment is behavioral modification intended to alter behavior, thus altering inputs and accordingly altering outputs




cinmanmoo -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 5:17:08 PM)

Well once again I agree with Kana almost but not wholly My definition of Discipline.

Discipline to Me although what Kana says is correct I add:
that I think discipline is corner time, time outs or humiliation of some sort
Not as severe as punishment but a soft reminder of something wrong that needs correction
If it continues then punishment is warranted




TieMeInKnottss -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 5:34:15 PM)

The word "discipline" has many definitions and also depends on whether it is used as a verb or noun...

Let's see...
I have BEEN instructed.[:)]
I have BEEN corrected.[sm=frown.gif]
I have BEEN punished/disciplined (I use interchangeably)[:(]

In fact...I just "paid" my debt this weekend so now I am back on his good side![:D]




Pyramus -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 5:52:21 PM)

I too have the hardest time defining "discipline" versus the rest.......




Kana -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 6:02:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cinmanmoo

Well once again I agree with Kana almost but not wholly My definition of Discipline.

Discipline to Me although what Kana says is correct I add:
that I think discipline is corner time, time outs or humiliation of some sort
Not as severe as punishment but a soft reminder of something wrong that needs correction
If it continues then punishment is warranted


I would label such things minor consequences (Which is the word I prefer because I hate the concept of punishment-it carries all negative connotations with no positive whereas consequence implies future expectations of change).
Buuuut, I also see such actions as sub-events of discipline in that they are small corrections, somewhat akin to re-placing the vehicle car between the yellow lines after it's drifted a bit.
They are designed to keep that routine discipline in place and operational.

Consider it routine maintenance, doing the day to day minute adjustments that keep things operating at 100% peak efficiency.
In other words,the strength of character to help keep someone on the right path, day in, day out, for extended periods of time




phoenixchild -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 6:12:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

The word "discipline" has many definitions and also depends on whether it is used as a verb or noun...

Let's see...
I have BEEN instructed.[:)]
I have BEEN corrected.[sm=frown.gif]
I have BEEN punished/disciplined (I use interchangeably)[:(]

In fact...I just "paid" my debt this weekend so now I am back on his good side![:D]

That last remark made me laugh - probably because i have been there at one point or another!




ResidentSadist -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 6:12:42 PM)

I can see the instruction, correction, discipline/punishment thing when training a noob. Training newcomers can be exciting for some. They need lots of instructions and that makes for lots of dynamics and interactions. I am bit older now and don't fair well with training or negotiations. Allow me to explain . . .

I had submissive girl once. She liked to negotiate. Her power struggle was her buzz. But it took her two years to get it through her skull that I wanted brown eggs. She kept buying white ones because they were cheaper. A slave wouldn't override Master's wishes to impose her own budget logic and save 45 cents because 'all eggs are the same to her'. All eggs aren't the same to me and I am worth far more than 45 cents and that is why we aren't together even thought I gave her my best shot.

My current slave bought brown eggs on her 1st shopping trip. Unlike the other girl, I had not specifically asked for brown eggs so I asked her why. She said she got them because they were the kind of eggs she saw in the fridge and presumed I liked them. Good girl, now that is slavecraft. Be observant. Self training. A well trained girl can walk into any situation with anyone and ask her way through it, providing perfect service because she asked the right questions about what they wanted.

I need a slave with people skills, domestic skills, erotic skills, relationship skills and corporate skills. That means she can cook, fuck, suck, entertain, balance the books, keep the house and run corporate projects. Taking TV away for week or laying out some corporal punishment chart like 1 spanking if you're late, 2 spankings if the coffee isn't just so & etc . . . well, that just seems out of place for that level of slavecraft. She *is* slave and her intent is all in the right places. Any training required is the simplest of things like I prefer red or blue . . . which can come through intelligent observation. That sums up my perspectives on training and instructions.

When my slave does fuck up, she screws the pooch and it's in a big way. So I want recompense more than anything. Recompense can look exactly like discipline but it feels different. She is smart enough to know what she did wrong after the fact. She needs no punishment. Disappointing me or fucking up is usually punishment in itself. On occasion she can benefit from my guidance, my training and learning a new perspective on it to avoid a repeat performance. So we can briefly verbalize it to confirm that we stand in the same perspective, the same reality. Then I beat her ass or reprimand her until I feel better, until I feel compensated. Then I call it even, we move on and let it be done. Same thing if I fuck up. We verbally confirm the reality of it and I keep putting band-aids on it until she says she feels compensated.

My one advice about the recompense for infractions is that the person receiving it should clearly communicate what is need to make them feel fully compensated. For example, if the slave is the one hurt, and Master says here is your ice cream cone, now get over it . . . if that truly isn't enough, then damage will be done. Emotional scar tissue builds up over the years and it will make you numb. So never let happen . . . always feel "even with board" whether it is correction, discipline or punishment, make sure that it is fitting for both parties.




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 6:14:04 PM)

fr:

The word discipline has more than one meaning, though they are all related.

As a noun it can be defined as the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience. It can also be defined as the controlled behavior resulting from discipline (punishment).

Some further definitions are an activity or experience that provides mental or physical training. For example, "the tariqa offered spiritual discipline."

As a noun it can be defined as a system of rules of conduct, (one might describe karate as a discipline) as well as a branch of knowledge, typically one studied in higher education.

As a verb it means the act of training someone to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.
Example, "many parents have been afraid to discipline their children."

Which means I can say something like, although Himself has never disciplined me (punished), he has disciplined (instructed) me to obey his strict code of behavior, which requires a great deal of mental discipline (stringent obedience to the code).





UniqueIntensity -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 6:14:07 PM)

I mostly agree with the initial post, until one comes to the distinction of Discipline vs Punishment.

While it is true, as someone stated, that discipline can have several meanings, I like the OPs original thought process. Following in that vein, I would put it as:

1. Instruction is defining the requirement. Simply put, one cannot expect someone to know what is expected without describing it.
2. Correction is a combination of cleaning up the aftermath (correcting the problem created) and demonstration of what was previously defined (correcting their understanding of what is required so it does not happen again). Both provide re-enforcement of the underlying requirement.

Following a similar logic, I split Discipline and Punishment as:
1. Discipline (as a noun) is the structure that makes the requirements real; meaning they are consistently monitored and enforced. Discipline as a verb, is then the act of enforcing the structure whether it be training, monitoring or correction.
2. Punishment is then a part of discipline; specifically negative re-enforcement to impose the structure when it is broken from.

As an aside, someone asked about whether positive or negative re-enforcement works best. In my experience that is dependent on the recipient and the circumstances, but in general it is always best to employ both in a balanced fashion.




phoenixchild -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 6:14:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyramus

I too have the hardest time defining "discipline" versus the rest.......

I think for me that discipline is more of a very strong correction (either verbally or physically showing me), and a warning that if i mess up again i will receive a punishment.




phoenixchild -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 6:28:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I can see the instruction, correction, discipline/punishment thing when training a noob. Training newcomers can be exciting for some. They need lots of instructions and that makes for lots of dynamics and interactions. I am bit older now and don't fair well with training or negotiations. Allow me to explain . . .

I had submissive girl once. She liked to negotiate. Her power struggle was her buzz. But it took her two years to get it through her skull that I wanted brown eggs. She kept buying white ones because they were cheaper. A slave wouldn't override Master's wishes to impose her own budget logic and save 45 cents because 'all eggs are the same to her'. All eggs aren't the same to me and I am worth far more than 45 cents and that is why we aren't together even thought I gave her my best shot.

My current slave bought brown eggs on her 1st shopping trip. Unlike the other girl, I had not specifically asked for brown eggs so I asked her why. She said she got them because they were the kind of eggs she saw in the fridge and presumed I liked them. Good girl, now that is slavecraft. Be observant. Self training. A well trained girl can walk into any situation with anyone and ask her way through it, providing perfect service because she asked the right questions about what they wanted.

I need a slave with people skills, domestic skills, erotic skills, relationship skills and corporate skills. That means she can cook, fuck, suck, entertain, balance the books, keep the house and run corporate projects. Taking TV away for week or laying out some corporal punishment chart like 1 spanking if you're late, 2 spankings if the coffee isn't just so & etc . . . well, that just seems out of place for that level of slavecraft. She *is* slave and her intent is all in the right places. Any training required is the simplest of things like I prefer red or blue . . . which can come through intelligent observation. That sums up my perspectives on training and instructions.

When my slave does fuck up, she screws the pooch and it's in a big way. So I want recompense more than anything. Recompense can look exactly like discipline but it feels different. She is smart enough to know what she did wrong after the fact. She needs no punishment. Disappointing me or fucking up is usually punishment in itself. On occasion she can benefit from my guidance, my training and learning a new perspective on it to avoid a repeat performance. So we can briefly verbalize it to confirm that we stand in the same perspective, the same reality. Then I beat her ass or reprimand her until I feel better, until I feel compensated. Then I call it even, we move on and let it be done. Same thing if I fuck up. We verbally confirm the reality of it and I keep putting band-aids on it until she says she feels compensated.

My one advice about the recompense for infractions is that the person receiving it should clearly communicate what is need to make them feel fully compensated. For example, if the slave is the one hurt, and Master says here is your ice cream cone, now get over it . . . if that truly isn't enough, then damage will be done. Emotional scar tissue builds up over the years and it will make you numb. So never let happen . . . always feel "even with board" whether it is correction, discipline or punishment, make sure that it is fitting for both parties.

You bring up some excellent points. When i am serving someone, i try to quietly observe what He likes, and how He likes it. If i am unsure, then i will ask Him. When i do make a mistake (i am only human, and no matter how hard i try to perfect, i never will be), most of the time i punish myself more than if i had been physically beat. But there are times that even the Dom makes mistakes. Both sides need to remember that the other person is only a human being, and they need to be forgiving of each other. You can not control what another person feels, no matter how hard you try. You may be able to control their reaction to what they are feeling, but the feeling remains theirs. They need to work out those feelings, and if you did something to cause those feelings, then you should see what you can do to try to soothe them - no matter if you are Dom or sub.




Kana -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 6:30:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

fr:

The word discipline has more than one meaning, though they are all related.

As a noun it can be defined as the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience. It can also be defined as the controlled behavior resulting from discipline (punishment).

Some further definitions are an activity or experience that provides mental or physical training. For example, "the tariqa offered spiritual discipline."

As a noun it can be defined as a system of rules of conduct, (one might describe karate as a discipline) as well as a branch of knowledge, typically one studied in higher education.

As a verb it means the act of training someone to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.
Example, "many parents have been afraid to discipline their children."

Which means I can say something like, although Himself has never disciplined me (punished), he has disciplined (instructed) me to obey his strict code of behavior, which requires a great deal of mental discipline (stringent obedience to the code).



And, coincidentally enough,all of the above come down to repetition.
Again and again, doing something over and over until it becomes second nature. :-)




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 6:35:10 PM)

There is definitely a connotation of stringent obedience to a strict code.




Kana -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 7:44:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

There is definitely a connotation of stringent obedience to a strict code.

I'll further note that another consistent thread between all of the above disciplines is that they are designed for self improvement




phoenixchild -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 8:29:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

There is definitely a connotation of stringent obedience to a strict code.

I'll further note that another consistent thread between all of the above disciplines is that they are designed for self improvement

Yes, that is very true!




NiceButMeanGirl -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 8:45:33 PM)

Instruction is education.
Correction is fixing the problem.
Discipline is knowing what's right and doing it on a daily basis.
Punishment is something that a person doesn't like, which causes them to avoid similar behavior in the future.

Using my definitions, I prefer to instruct/educate rather than punish. Not everyone has a punishment dynamic.

NBMG




LittleGirlHeart -> RE: Instruction, correction, discipline/punishment (1/20/2014 8:50:43 PM)

Not everyone in a bdsm d/s relationship is a slave , or even a sub Op.




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