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RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 3:48:18 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

These are your words:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

It was still bullshit....... you claimed it proved the door was open, now you are saying it doesnt...


I never, ever said that the photo does not prove the door was open. My stance is the photo does prove it, and haven't said anything otherwise.

So stop making shit up.


So, you posted a photo of a shut door, with a photo of an open door which you clearly stated was photoshopped. And yet you seriously claim the photo shopped picture is the accurate one. Seems to me you need to get a grip.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 3:52:47 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

These are your words:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

It was still bullshit....... you claimed it proved the door was open, now you are saying it doesnt...


I never, ever said that the photo does not prove the door was open. My stance is the photo does prove it, and haven't said anything otherwise.

So stop making shit up.


So, you posted a photo of a shut door, with a photo of an open door which you clearly stated was photoshopped. And yet you seriously claim the photo shopped picture is the accurate one. Seems to me you need to get a grip.



ACTUALLY, what I claimed, is the photoshopped picture was simply an aid to show the position of the door with the shot angles lined up.

The regular photo demonstrates it quite clearly on it's own; the angles are quite visible.



(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 4:00:54 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

He kept firing at the damn car as it left the scene for fucks sake!


If movement is what accounted for the change of angles, you wouldn't have 3 shots at one exact angle, and 3 shots at another exact angle.



1) He stepped out of his car to continue firing.

2) Witnesses as well as he himself stated that he continued firing at the vehicle as it left the scene.

Now, how did you miss that tidbit in witness statements, his statements and the statements of the teenagers in the car?

_____________________________

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(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 4:03:18 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, how did you miss that tidbit in witness statements, his statements and the statements of the teenagers in the car?


Did you miss that little tidbit where I said shooting at a fleeing vehicle was unjustifiable so therefore I agreed with the 4 convictions?

Apparently so, or you wouldn't be asking that.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 4:25:47 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

ACTUALLY, what I claimed, is the photoshopped picture was simply an aid to show the position of the door with the shot angles lined up.

The regular photo demonstrates it quite clearly on it's own; the angles are quite visible.



Your first claim was the door was open, your second was it was shut.

I will leave it to others to work out wtf you were on about, just as I have done.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 4:33:27 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, how did you miss that tidbit in witness statements, his statements and the statements of the teenagers in the car?


Did you miss that little tidbit where I said shooting at a fleeing vehicle was unjustifiable so therefore I agreed with the 4 convictions?

Apparently so, or you wouldn't be asking that.

I haven't seen anyone argue that Dunn wasn't guilty

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 4:34:08 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, how did you miss that tidbit in witness statements, his statements and the statements of the teenagers in the car?


Did you miss that little tidbit where I said shooting at a fleeing vehicle was unjustifiable so therefore I agreed with the 4 convictions?

Apparently so, or you wouldn't be asking that.

So, finally you acknowledge that the later shots are not fired from the same relative location as the first 3. so your photo is useless and completely and totally without merit. THANK YOU!

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 4:45:26 PM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Your first claim was the door was open, your second was it was shut.



False, I never made that second claim.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 4:51:32 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, how did you miss that tidbit in witness statements, his statements and the statements of the teenagers in the car?


Did you miss that little tidbit where I said shooting at a fleeing vehicle was unjustifiable so therefore I agreed with the 4 convictions?

Apparently so, or you wouldn't be asking that.

I haven't seen anyone argue that Dunn wasn't guilty


Same. He just implied with his question that I was unaware that Dunn fired at the vehicle as it fled, so I pointed out I've already demonstrated I was aware.

And this is as good of a time as any, since there's a long history of fabricating my opinions instead of going by what I actually say, to reiterate:

I think Dunn was very likely guilty of 2nd degree murder at least.
There's enough evidence, such as the open door, to give reasonable doubt.
But even if not guilty of the murder charge, there's no justification for shooting at a fleeing vehicle, so I would have found him guilty of the same charges the jury did.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 4:57:24 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, how did you miss that tidbit in witness statements, his statements and the statements of the teenagers in the car?


Did you miss that little tidbit where I said shooting at a fleeing vehicle was unjustifiable so therefore I agreed with the 4 convictions?

Apparently so, or you wouldn't be asking that.

I haven't seen anyone argue that Dunn wasn't guilty


Same. He just implied with his question that I was unaware that Dunn fired at the vehicle as it fled, so I pointed out I've already demonstrated I was aware.

And this is as good of a time as any, since there's a long history of fabricating my opinions instead of going by what I actually say, to reiterate:

I think Dunn was very likely guilty of 2nd degree murder at least.
There's enough evidence, such as the open door, to give reasonable doubt.
But even if not guilty of the murder charge, there's no justification for shooting at a fleeing vehicle, so I would have found him guilty of the same charges the jury did.

60 years for the 3 counts of attempted will put him away till he breaks 100.
While I agree he should have been convicted on at least 2nd degree and understand some frustration
since he hasn't been yet, there is still the retrial, he most assuredly didn't get away with it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 6:17:54 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, how did you miss that tidbit in witness statements, his statements and the statements of the teenagers in the car?


Did you miss that little tidbit where I said shooting at a fleeing vehicle was unjustifiable so therefore I agreed with the 4 convictions?

Apparently so, or you wouldn't be asking that.

I haven't seen anyone argue that Dunn wasn't guilty


Same. He just implied with his question that I was unaware that Dunn fired at the vehicle as it fled, so I pointed out I've already demonstrated I was aware.

And this is as good of a time as any, since there's a long history of fabricating my opinions instead of going by what I actually say, to reiterate:

I think Dunn was very likely guilty of 2nd degree murder at least.
There's enough evidence, such as the open door, to give reasonable doubt.
But even if not guilty of the murder charge, there's no justification for shooting at a fleeing vehicle, so I would have found him guilty of the same charges the jury did.

The door was not open. The evidence actually presented at the trial was that it was closed. When will you stop making stuff up?

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 7:11:57 PM   
cloudboy


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Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

That is beyond disturbing. As I said up front, many white people are irrationally afraid of black men, and there will always be other whites ready to agree with those irrational fears.

How many more SYG killers evading murder charges will it take for the laws to be changed?

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 7:26:57 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


That is beyond disturbing. As I said up front, many white people are irrationally afraid of black men, and there will always be other whites ready to agree with those irrational fears.

How many more SYG killers evading murder charges will it take for the laws to be changed?

You talk like Dunn was acquitted, he wasn't.
He'll get 60 years for the convictions and he is going to be retried for the murder charges.
Are you going to claim the OJ verdict was racist? That would make as much sense.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 7:37:36 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
opposingviews.com

In case the link doesn't work for you

Does Florida Stand-Your-Ground Law Benefit Blacks More Than Whites?



By Sarah Fruchtnicht, Wed, July 17, 2013


Attorney General Eric Holder denounced stand-your-ground laws in a speech at the NAACP convention on Tuesday, noting they “senselessly expand the concept of self-defense” and could cause “violent situations to escalate."

However, Patrick Howley of the Daily Caller argues that getting rid of SYG laws will not help black people. Black people benefit far more than whites in Florida when using “Stand Your Ground” as their defense, he says. When made by black people, those claims are more successful.

Howley compared stand-your-ground data maintained by the Tampa Bay Times. The database shows that in the past six years, 69 white defendants argued “stand your ground” in fatal shootings, and 39 were considered justified. Of 32 black defendants who argued “stand your ground” in fatal shootings, 25 were considered justified. There are nine pending Florida cases from white defendants and eight pending from black defendants.

The law has been criticized as a “shoot first” rule, telling people who feel threatened with body harm that they have a right to use deadly force. The problem, as Holder put it, is that these laws skirt the person’s primary duty to retreat.

“We must confront the underlying attitudes, the mistaken beliefs and the unfortunate stereotypes that serve too often as the basis for police action and private judgments," Holder said in his speech. "Separate and apart from the case that has drawn the nation’s attention, it’s time to question laws that senselessly expand the concept of self-defense and sow dangerous conflict in our neighborhood.”

MetroTrends analyzed 4,650 FBI records of homicides and found that in states with stand-your-ground laws, juries favor white people who shoot black people. Black people who shoot white strangers have the lowest chance of being found not guilty, while whites who shoot black strangers have the highest chance of a not-guilty verdict.

George Zimmerman did not claim "stand your ground” in the Travyon Martin shooting trial; instead his attorneys argued the case like any self-defense case.


< Message edited by BamaD -- 2/20/2014 7:39:05 PM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 7:41:46 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
MetroTrends analyzed 4,650 FBI records of homicides and found that in states with stand-your-ground laws, juries favor white people who shoot black people. Black people who shoot white strangers have the lowest chance of being found not guilty, while whites who shoot black strangers have the highest chance of a not-guilty verdict.

This is why we must get rid of SYG it is literally a license to kill.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 7:44:52 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
MetroTrends analyzed 4,650 FBI records of homicides and found that in states with stand-your-ground laws, juries favor white people who shoot black people. Black people who shoot white strangers have the lowest chance of being found not guilty, while whites who shoot black strangers have the highest chance of a not-guilty verdict.

This is why we must get rid of SYG it is literally a license to kill.

No it isn't.
All SYG says is that you don't have to prove you tried to run away from an attacker.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 2/20/2014 8:02:35 PM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 8:08:46 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
MetroTrends analyzed 4,650 FBI records of homicides and found that in states with stand-your-ground laws, juries favor white people who shoot black people. Black people who shoot white strangers have the lowest chance of being found not guilty, while whites who shoot black strangers have the highest chance of a not-guilty verdict.

This is why we must get rid of SYG it is literally a license to kill.

No it isn't.
All SYG says is that you don't have to prove you tried to run away from an attacker.

And the statistics prove it is being applied racially.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 8:13:01 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
MetroTrends analyzed 4,650 FBI records of homicides and found that in states with stand-your-ground laws, juries favor white people who shoot black people. Black people who shoot white strangers have the lowest chance of being found not guilty, while whites who shoot black strangers have the highest chance of a not-guilty verdict.

This is why we must get rid of SYG it is literally a license to kill.

No it isn't.
All SYG says is that you don't have to prove you tried to run away from an attacker.

And the statistics prove it is being applied racially.

You clearly didn't read all of the article.
Interracial shootings are such a minority that a couple of cases can throw it out of wack.
Blacks overall are more successful using SYG defense than whites.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 8:19:45 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
MetroTrends analyzed 4,650 FBI records of homicides and found that in states with stand-your-ground laws, juries favor white people who shoot black people. Black people who shoot white strangers have the lowest chance of being found not guilty, while whites who shoot black strangers have the highest chance of a not-guilty verdict.

This is why we must get rid of SYG it is literally a license to kill.

No it isn't.
All SYG says is that you don't have to prove you tried to run away from an attacker.

And the statistics prove it is being applied racially.

Since you clearly fail to see this self defense also has to fail for a conviction in a SYG case.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/20/2014 9:10:48 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
MetroTrends analyzed 4,650 FBI records of homicides and found that in states with stand-your-ground laws, juries favor white people who shoot black people. Black people who shoot white strangers have the lowest chance of being found not guilty, while whites who shoot black strangers have the highest chance of a not-guilty verdict.

This is why we must get rid of SYG it is literally a license to kill.

No it isn't.
All SYG says is that you don't have to prove you tried to run away from an attacker.

And the statistics prove it is being applied racially.

Since you clearly fail to see this self defense also has to fail for a conviction in a SYG case.

No. The jury simply has to, as happened in this case, apply a racial sensibility.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 180
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