RE: Are WE racists?

RE: Are WE racists? (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/14/2006 12:52:47 PM)
meatcleaver, I beg to differ. The "once bitten twice shy" policy is not a natural reaction, it is the reaction of someone excusing racism. Racism is a product of a bad education. If a person has a decent education he/she will realise difference is to be embraced not feared. NorthernGent

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/14/2006 2:03:58 PM)
Are you a social worker? Natural reaction to conditioning might well be a product of socialisation but it is a reaction conditioned by an inherent racist society we have been brought up in. To admit ones honest reaction is not racist, it is merely an admission of ones reaction. Being aware of that reaction and trying to do something about it is something to be encouraged. People who say 'I'm not a racist and I've never had a racist thought.' is something I find unbelieveable considering the society we have been brought up in, though I know there are many people who profess that, particularly social workers. Bad education or not, one might intellectually understand the reasons behind ones emotional reaction but knowing something doesn't make the brain immediately stop a visceral reaction. Experience and awareness over time does. The problem with political correctness is that it shuts people up so no one ever admits to the emotions they experience. It also stops debate on matters that might be better discussed. How do you educate people if discussion is mute because of accusations such as YOU ARE A RACIST?

NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/14/2006 2:14:18 PM)
meatclever, Why would I necessarily be a social worker? "A reaction by a conditioned inherent racist society" is a contradiction in terms - inherent is in-built, conditioned is manufactured. It is one or the other. You find it unbelievable to not have a racist thought because you are racist. As said, I find racism the preserve of the poorly educated. Neither are facts, they are opinions. You tell the full story by labelling me as a social worker even though you have never met me. NorthernGent.

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/14/2006 2:18:34 PM)
OK You write like a social worker. As I said. It is common to try to shut people up by accusing them of being racist. Of course you aren't, never have been because you have a good education and imune to the nature of the society I assume you grew up in.

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/14/2006 2:25:18 PM)
Oh You have accused two people now of being racist without knowing them. I'm putting my money on you being a social worker after all.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/14/2006 2:40:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Oh You have accused two people now of being racist without knowing them. I'm putting my money on you being a social worker after all. The world must be ending, I agree with meatcleaver. LOL. Where's my bottle of vodka. Here's my view on it, anyone professing to have the ability to spot racism, from a couple of ambiguous lines a computer screen, is no different than a racist. What's bad about racism, hmmmm, well, it's making huge judgements about someone based on no or very little knowledge of the person and generally the racist will discard evidence to contrary of their views or make up false correlations. What's bad about a race card player... See racism above. It's the same thing. Now, If someone said a clearly defined statement like "All black men are superior to white men". Well, then there is no debate, or is there.

SirKenin -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/14/2006 5:26:09 PM)
The way I see it, he is nothing but a hypocrite himself, pointing out the error in other's ways for calling him labels without knowing him, while doing the same damn thing himself. Not only does he have no clue what he is talking about by labelling Me, he has just demoted himself to zero credibility as well.

Lilmissbossy -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/14/2006 6:55:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Whites have not suffered hundreds of years of slavery and second-class status. Thus, racism against blacks has far-reaching connotations and can be seen as a continuation of the worst excesses of imperialism. Excuse me but there were tens of thousands of white slaves throughout history, when was the last time you heard a white person complaining about it? I can honestly say I've never heard a single one. Have you? If anyone can answer me as to why that is, I'd love to hear it. Because at some point in time, people are going to say "Get over the slaves thing ok. Move on. This is 2006".

Estring -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/14/2006 7:02:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Whites have not suffered hundreds of years of slavery and second-class status. Thus, racism against blacks has far-reaching connotations and can be seen as a continuation of the worst excesses of imperialism. Actually, the implementation of welfare by guilt-ridden whites who actually view blacks as not being able to manage on their own, has done more to destroy black culture and their family structure than anything else.

NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/14/2006 9:33:48 PM)
Hmmmm, my earlier point was/is anyone who allows their views on an entire race to be guided by the actions of two people must be racist. You must have a pre-conceived idea of that race and the actions of the two people is the straw that broke the camel's back. meatclever, In the UK you don't have to be a social worker to see racism for what it is. I'm sure it is the same in the US. Estring, I can't comment on the US but that is certainly not the case here. Ultimately, in the UK, racism is institutionalised i.e. the establishment is predominantly white - over and above the ratio of whites to ethnic minorities in wider society. Understand this and you will find the answer to why ethnic minorities in the UK are still second class citizens. meatclever, If you respond, read carefully - I AM NOT A SOCIAL WORKER OR ANYTHING LIKE IT. NorthernGent

popeye1250 -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/14/2006 10:17:38 PM)
Lots of mistakes here guys! "Pakistani" is not a race. (Nationality) "Hispanic" is not a race. (Ethnic group) Race is not determined by skin color! It is determined by Anatomy. Most people would be surprised to learn that a lot of the people in India are caucaision or a mix there of. They're not Negroid, and they're not Mongoloid. Just because their skin is darker doesn't make them Negroid. As for being "racist" which race are you talking about being "racist" to which other race?

NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 2:41:54 AM)
lol popeye, Aren't you the pedantic one. You know what we mean, the widely accepted view of what racism means - discrimination based on skin colour. I'll take your word for it on India etc. NorthernGent

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 3:10:11 AM)
You don't solve racism by accusing someone of being a racist and so shutting them up and training them to jump through what someone has deemed socially acceptable hoops. That just creates a more insidious form of racism. One has to accept where one is starting from and education requires discussion and questioning of a proposition, not blind adherence to someone elses definition.

NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 3:30:23 AM)
meatcleaver, I agree with your last post but the point your missing is this: Do you think discussion on race relations amounts to someone saying they are wary of an entire race because of two people?That is far from discussion and anyone who thinks that is not racism needs to visit a dictionary and re-read the definition of racism. As I stated earlier, discussion/debate should never be polarised - it is never that simple and is not healthy. But, as said, there was no discussion, just blatant, unadulterated racism. And, I have not shut anyone up who has something sensible to contribute - everyone can exercise the post option. I noticed everyone swerved the question "are you wary of all white Americans because of the actions of white american terrorists" or even Ted Bundy and the likes. Speaks volumes. NorthernGent

Lilmissbossy -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 3:30:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Ultimately, in the UK, racism is institutionalised i.e. the establishment is predominantly white - over and above the ratio of whites to ethnic minorities in wider society. Understand this and you will find the answer to why ethnic minorities in the UK are still second class citizens. NorthernGent I'm sorry but that is just ill-thought out and frankly insulting to anyone in the UK that happens to be white. There is a very good reason for the 'establishment' being predominantly white - the simple fact being that in the enormous history of the UK, only a tiny fraction of that timespan were there ever 'minorities' of any great number here. Representation has to be EARNED, not handed on a plate to appease the guilt factors of equality-seeking social commentators. I worry that what you and people with similar viewpoints are advocating is 'give black people representation in high office to maintain a racial balance' instead of instilling the belief that you need to work for it. We live in a Democracy, those that have ambitions of holding political power will be given it by the people they represent, not by someone waving a wand to balance a racial budget.

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 3:45:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Do you think discussion on race relations amounts to someone saying they are wary of an entire race because of two people?That is far from discussion and anyone who thinks that is not racism needs to visit a dictionary and re-read the definition of racism. People respond to experience and while judging an entire race on the actions of a couple of people is irrational, emotions are not rational thoughts nor does an intellectual understanding of why one has such emotions prevent such emotions. To respond differently to ones experiences is a process, one doesn't have a switch in ones brain to flick for the 'right' or 'socially correct' emotional response. Modifying ones behaviour is a lot easier than modifying ones emotional responses. I thought SirKenin was just being candid about his emotional responses, he didn't say he stopped dealing with members of the mentioned race or that he threatened them. Good experiences might change his attitude but I don't see how labelling someone a 'racist' is going to do anything other than making someone defensive and hardening their attitude. The natural reaction to being accused and attacked is to accuse and attack back.

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 3:56:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Ultimately, in the UK, racism is institutionalised i.e. the establishment is predominantly white - over and above the ratio of whites to ethnic minorities in wider society. Understand this and you will find the answer to why ethnic minorities in the UK are still second class citizens. NorthernGent I'm sorry but that is just ill-thought out and frankly insulting to anyone in the UK that happens to be white. There is a very good reason for the 'establishment' being predominantly white - the simple fact being that in the enormous history of the UK, only a tiny fraction of that timespan were there ever 'minorities' of any great number here. I still have a lot of Indian friends from when I lived in east London, many who have lived in various countries around the world and most say that while the UK is not perfect, they are thankful to be able to live there and be successful. Though Indians are amongst the most successful immigrants in bBritain so they will have a different view of the UK than people from less successful immigrant groups. I think also NorthernGent forgets that the UK is 94% white and is an established group where many minority groups are not established which makes a vast difference. If one compares one ethnic minority group against another one gets a contradictory picture of the UK's acceptence of minorities, some being far more successful than others, which suggests it is not racism that keeps people poor. I don't deny there is racism for a moment but it is not the concrete boots that many like Northerngent would have us believe.

NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 3:56:59 AM)
missbossy, Your first paragraph is not inconsitent with the paragraph of mine you highlighted. There is truth in both. You then jump to the conclusion that I am talking about guilt, appeasement, handing things on a plate - I'm not, so not sure where you got that from. Where we disagree is this: I believe in order to earn something you need a level playing-field/equal opportunity. You need a chance in life. Without equal opportunity, there will always be an imbalance. If you look at the grass roots of Britain, there is a higher rate of poverty amongst ethnic minorities than whites (as a percentage of the respective populations). This is because of 40/50 years of discrimination in the workplace and wider society. When Britiain hands a level playing field to all of it's citizens then the ethnic minorities will have their chance to compete and earn representation. Until then, representation is achieved despite the imbalance. One piece of free advice - post about what is being said not what you would like me to say i.e I worry that what you and people with similar viewpoints are advocating is give black people representation in high office to maintain a racial balance' instead of instilling the belief that you need to work for it. I never said anything like it. Give people a chance in life, the opportunity and they'll thrive. NorthernGent

porchia -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 4:04:10 AM)
i really don't think anyone is grasping what NorthernGent really is---it's simple i figured it out in the first posting---He is VERY WELL EDUCATED. Duh!!!!

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 4:37:42 AM)
Yep. I think NorthernGent has proved that educated left wingers are just as guilty of stereotyping as uneducated rightwingers. The brain without the heart is just as dumb as the heart without the brain, all function and little purpose.

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