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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 7:49:07 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The most common objection I hear from some straight people against marriage equality is that it will somehow 'devalue' heterosexual marriage. Often these same people propose civil unions as a 'acceptable' formula that won't devalue their hetero marriages. I've never received a satisfactory answer when I ask precisely how will heterosexual marriage be devalued.

So I am at a loss to understand this point of view. Perhaps someone can explain to me precisely how the institution of marriage between heterosexuals will be devalued by extending the same privelige to queers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IHdaJOZe7E

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 7:59:32 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
BTW, as a church lady myself, I have to say I cringe when I read your posts. Again and again, your words make all believers sound like morons.


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
A moron? I had to look up the definition to make sure I had that right, you know because of me being slow and all.

Your posts tend to be rather simple for example claiming "medical research" and then being unable to explain or justify that.

Your posts tend to be riddled with errors. For instance dc called himself a "church lady" not you and what pray tell does "rational based" mean.

Your posts tend to rely on magical thinking such as this one where "the spirit" was supposed to be able to enlighten people.


I think what dc was trying to express is that as a Christian he shudders to see other Christians wade into an intellectual discussion and flounder. That it ends up making Christianity look bad.


< Message edited by GotSteel -- 3/17/2014 8:00:30 AM >

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 9:38:30 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Weighing in with a couple of cents worth:

"Marriage" is considered a sacrament in many churches. And, many religions don't consider it a "marriage" unless it is done in a church, etc.

Why not defuse the controversy with the fundies and simply consider all civil officiated unions "domestic partners" and leave "marriage" to the churches.

Let the various congregations consider "marriage" only between one man and one woman and leave the legal definition of "civil union" to be whatever the local jurisdiction wants to.


Lots of religions do not tie marriage to a particular place like a church. And only some religions have churches. So this approach leaves out a lot of legitimate religions that have marriage. That hardly seems fair. People can't claim tolerance if they are not being tolerant of religions other than their own.

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 10:06:28 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Why not defuse the controversy with the fundies and simply consider all civil officiated unions "domestic partners" and leave "marriage" to the churches.

Lots of religions do not tie marriage to a particular place like a church. And only some religions have churches. So this approach leaves out a lot of legitimate religions that have marriage. That hardly seems fair. People can't claim tolerance if they are not being tolerant of religions other than their own.

I think it fair to say that what MercTech intended was to leave the whole "marriage" business to religion. There seems to be a propensity in some quarters for manufacturing accusations of intolerance (or worse) on thin grounds. The discussion could do with less of it.

K.


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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 10:14:09 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		http://conservativebyte.com/2014/03/michele-bachmann-claims-gay-people-bullied-american-people/

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 10:16:04 AM   
dcnovice


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I don't doubt that many folks, online and off, are sincere about thinking the government should get out of "the marriage business."

But I confess I find the timing curious. Marriage and government have been entwined for centuries. Yet I honestly don't recall anyone's describing that as a problem before governments began issuing marriage licenses to gays as well as straights.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 3/17/2014 10:21:25 AM >

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 10:35:28 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I don't doubt that many folks, online and off, are sincere about thinking the government should get out of "the marriage business."

But I confess I find the timing curious. Marriage and government have been entwined for centuries. Yet I honestly don't recall anyone's describing that as a problem before governments began issuing marriage licenses to gays as well as straights.

Actually, it has been the position of some people for a long time. This whole business of the state involving itself in who may and may not marry started in the post-Civil War era as a way to combat miscegenation. The requirement to obtain a "marriage license" in order to marry legally was used to deny the right to marry to mixed couples (their application for a "license" would not be approved). The current debate over gay marriage has dragged the whole marriage issue onto center stage, but even today the objection to government involvement seems a minority view among those on the front lines.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/17/2014 11:02:13 AM >

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 10:44:06 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Got Steel I agree with you on this issue...I was wondering if however the term Civil Marriage would be acceptable for all marriages... hetro and gay alike outside of a church?

Those getting married in a church could call it what they like.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/17/2014 10:45:21 AM >

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 10:46:41 AM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Thanks, K., for the historical context!

Also found some interesting info in an essay by Stephanie Coontz, a professor of history at Evergreen State College and author of “Marriage, a History: How Love Conquered Marriage.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/26/opinion/26coontz.html?_r=0

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No matter how cynical you become,
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JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 11:09:41 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Got Steel I agree with you on this issue...I was wondering if however the term Civil Marriage would be acceptable for all marriages... hetro and gay alike outside of a church?

Those getting married in a church could call it what they like.

Butch

and then again sometimes I despair

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 12:13:41 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		lol... I always look for the compromise... I figure neither side would be happy with " Civil Marriage" and having it shoved down their throats may make them see how silly this argument is.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 12:26:09 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		compromise is a good idea in so many things, butif you look at the link I posted earlier, some arent nearly as ready to compromise on anything and never will.

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 12:40:04 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Lucy it just amazes me how arguments over this naming issue of marriage are debated so passionately when the real issues are ignored. It has nothing to do with the word marriage... or religion in particular... It is just plain and simple human nature and the revulsion of gay behavior by many straight people and their inability to overcome this way of thinking that has been mainstream since the beginning of civilization.

Some are blaming religion... nonsense... this attitude towards gays predates many religions which are just a crutch.. or self justifications written in the religious texts as validation of their natural feelings.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 373
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 12:47:19 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		But as they cant stop people having sex any longer, they will deny them everything else, for daring to fall in love with the same sex, and they use religion as justification.
HOw many states can fire someone for being gay? TOO many
how many states dont allow gay marriage, yet allow beastiality?
HOw many people find male on male sex repulsive but fap religiously to lesbian sex?
pun intended


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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 1:03:34 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I am not justifying this behavior... just saying we should be arguing over the real issues. And to a certain extent we are... But this marriage bit is a symptom of this battle not the cause.

Not just in the US or Western Europe are attitudes changing and changing fast... but throughout the world. I think it is communication that is driving and enabling this change. Our era is the first time in world history that issue debates can be instantaneous and world wide. It use to be if you were too liberal when it came to gays you were ostracized are accused of being gay yourself. But when we can see others throughout the world with the same opinions we are more likely to speak out...or at least change our minds personally.

There is a tidal wave of world opinion building and in the near future, if we don't get sidetracked, maybe for the first time in history homosexuals will be accepted as equals everywhere.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/17/2014 1:10:06 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 375
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 1:12:39 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		please understand Im not accusing you of justifying anything:)
quote:

Our era is the first time in world history that issue debates can be instantaneous and world wide. It use to be if you were too liberal when it came to gays you were ostracized are accused of being gay yourself. But when we can see others throughout the world with the same opinions we are more likely to speak out.

And why is this era happening??? Because the church has lost a lot of its power, because it lost the stranglehold it had on thought. Education and knowledge has expanded enormously thank god
Belief is not relied on as much as we can understand our world better. And it has been found to be wanting by millions upon millions who have felt the oppression of the dogma.

Unfortunately idiocy travels down the genetic line, unless its stopped with education and information and open minds


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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 1:21:48 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Not because the church has lost power... but because of... the net!!!

I do not have my head in the sand when it comes to religions..meaning Islam and Christianity's in particular...roll in this issue. You must understand that the majority of mankind claims to be religious and the majority of mankind still holds negative views of homosexuals. Lets just say we could take religion out of the equation mankind in general will still have issues with homosexuality. The only reason we think religion is at fault is because of the majority in both negative views in mankind and the reflection of these views in religion of the majority.

It is mankind... not religion at fault... or perhaps a better way to put it is religion is just a reflection of mankind's basic view.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/17/2014 1:26:09 PM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 1:22:49 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Lucy it just amazes me how arguments over this naming issue of marriage are debated so passionately when the real issues are ignored. It has nothing to do with the word marriage... or religion in particular...

It has everything to do with it.
However, it's the religious nuts that are making the most noise about it.

A lot of hetero people who are not religious are also complaining about it too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
It is just plain and simple human nature and the revulsion of gay behavior by many straight people and their inability to overcome this way of thinking that has been mainstream since the beginning of civilization.

Whilst this may be true, it is still (unfortunately) the majority PoV at this time.


On a personal note, I have a problem with it too.
Why?
Because I'm a Pagan.
To be legally "married" (and not in a church setting), I still had to spout certain godly words.
I could get around that by having a 'civil' ceremony instead.
But I'm not allowed to have a civil ceremony because I'm being joined (married) to a member of the opposite sex.

So.... the gay community want to use the word "marriage" but us non-gay people aren't allowed to have a civil joining???
How fucked-up and one-sided is that??

A member of our family is gay and we went to his civil ceremony in 2010, so I did a lot of digging about ceremonies and what is allowed and what isn't (for the UK).

Our gays here get exactly the same rights as those that are legally "married" so I don't see what the fuss is all about.
Those hetero's and religious people that want to keep it a sacred word for their ceremony, why not?
So on that premise, why are the gay's kicking up such a fuss over it??

When everything is equal, maybe things will change.... maybe.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 378
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 1:29:27 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Not because the church has lost power... but because of... the net!!!

I do not have my head in the sand when it comes to religions..meaning Islam and Christianity's in particular...roll in this issue. You must understand that the majority of mankind claims to be religious and the majority of mankind still holds negative views of homosexuals. Lets just say we could take religion out of the equation mankind in general will still have issues with homosexuality. The only reason we think religion is at fault is because of the majority in both negative views in mankind and the reflection of these views in religion of the majority.

It is mankind... not religion at fault.

Butch

apart from laughing at the net coment i disagree
No, the moralising of the various good book made it wrong....
Moralising is not inate, its learned, like racism and sexism and every other dam ism
and how do I know?
I have lesbian godmothers, I grew up in the church, listening to my church describe my godmothers as worse than scum and it was a huge help towards HOW I got away from the hypocritical BS in most religons




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Profile   Post #: 379
RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as raci... - 3/17/2014 1:33:23 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Lucy it just amazes me how arguments over this naming issue of marriage are debated so passionately when the real issues are ignored. It has nothing to do with the word marriage... or religion in particular...

It has everything to do with it.
However, it's the religious nuts that are making the most noise about it.

A lot of hetero people who are not religious are also complaining about it too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
It is just plain and simple human nature and the revulsion of gay behavior by many straight people and their inability to overcome this way of thinking that has been mainstream since the beginning of civilization.

Whilst this may be true, it is still (unfortunately) the majority PoV at this time.


On a personal note, I have a problem with it too.
Why?
Because I'm a Pagan.
To be legally "married" (and not in a church setting), I still had to spout certain godly words.
I could get around that by having a 'civil' ceremony instead.
But I'm not allowed to have a civil ceremony because I'm being joined (married) to a member of the opposite sex.

So.... the gay community want to use the word "marriage" but us non-gay people aren't allowed to have a civil joining???
How fucked-up and one-sided is that??

A member of our family is gay and we went to his civil ceremony in 2010, so I did a lot of digging about ceremonies and what is allowed and what isn't (for the UK).

Our gays here get exactly the same rights as those that are legally "married" so I don't see what the fuss is all about.
Those hetero's and religious people that want to keep it a sacred word for their ceremony, why not?
So on that premise, why are the gay's kicking up such a fuss over it??

When everything is equal, maybe things will change.... maybe.


why cant you have a civil ceremony???


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Duchess Of Dissent
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(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 380
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