RE: NO Safeword...??

RE: NO Safeword...?? (Full Version)

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littlewonder -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/22/2014 7:24:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt The OP isn't questioning no limits play with your partner whom you trust and know well. Diminants who put 'no limits will be honored' in a profile are looking for instant domination, instant trust, and sorry, that just doesn't work in the long term. While I can't be sure about the dude who the OP quoted, that's not my experience at all. I've had a 'no limits and safe words' arrangement with every dominant guy I've ever met and played through this site on the first date. However, that's never meant 'I want instance trust' and always merely meant 'If you want to be in my life, you do what I say. Period. If you don't want to do what I say leave.' That doesn't mean I would instantly trust them, hell, it didn't even mean I'd instantly do anything for them, but what it meant was that we weren't going to get into a negotiation game about what was and wasn't 'allowed'. He was free to try anything he could/would/wanted to from day one, and the price he paid for pushing it too far would be me leaving. On the other hand, I was expected to not hold out and let my head dictate what I would or wouldn't do, and instead just react to what he was capable of making me want to do, and the price I'd pay for letting my head, instead of my feelings rule my reactions to him would be to no longer be allowed near him. No limits/no safe words really isn't as scary, dangerous, or insane as people here keep pretending it is... unless you're dealing with an actually pshycho who will non-consensually keep you chained up in the basement when you want to leave... but if that's the dude you're dealing with... how exactly is having a safe word and a list of hard limits going to protect you against that? This. Exactly this. Even when I played casually. He simply took the chance of me walking out if he did something that bothered me. But there was definitely never, ever going to be a negotiation game. Personally when I was single and was meeting men from online, if they ever mentioned wanting safewords, that was enough for me to know we were not compatible and I would move on quickly. So for me personally if I saw a profile that stated they did not have safewords from the very beginning I probably would have actually been intrigued enough to want to get to know them more.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/22/2014 7:31:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt I understand criteria might be different in casual play. Of course you don't play with someone you think will harm you, I think everyone has that as criteria. But how do you know? You don't know. That's exactly the point. The first time you're alone with somebody and you allow them to tie you up is dangerous. Safewords won't change that. Hard limit lists won't change that. Negotiations won't change that. Either this person is going to set out to harm you, or they're not. And if you are willing to take the risk to play with them in private the first time, there is NOTHING you can do to guarantee they're one and not the other. The only thing you can do is hope that your sense of them is correct, and you don't end up getting screwed in ways you weren't anticipating. quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Not everyone has the experience you do. Some people need to be told that saying "I won't honor limits' in a profile is a red flag that spells predator, fantasist, or both, at least to me. This is where you and I different substantially. I think telling people that 'I won't honor limits' = 'red flag' is dangerous. I'd much rather have the 'predators' be honest on their profile and say they won't honor limits. How are they a 'predator' btw, when they are open and honest about EXACTLY what it is they want? I don't understand how stating upfront what you're about and what you're looking for is in the least bit predatorily or fantasist. It might not make him a great partner for everybody, but it hardly makes him dangerous when he's warning you about what you'd get into with him. I think that the kink community puts to much emphasis on safe words and limits to newbies, and that it creates a false sense of security for those who are new to the scene. When I was working in a fetish club years ago, I couldn't count the times where I've seen a complete newbie go home with a dude they knew nothing about, feeling 100% safe, because they had had a discussion about limits beforehand. Sorry, but that just doesn't fly. A discussion about limits and safe words does NOTHING to keep you safer than playing without limits or safe words does. Likewise, the guy who proclaims on his profile that he won't honor limits or safe words isn't the one to be scared of, because he is being completely open and honest about what you're getting into when you sign up to play with him. Do I think newbies ought to play with such a person? Nope... but at the same time, he ain't the guy I worry about newbies playing with, as even the greenest newbies seem to run for the hill when some dude is all bluster about being into extreme edge play without safe words. It's the newbie who goes home with the guy she talked about limits with, and who feels safe enough because of that that she doesn't tell anybody where she's going that I worry about. It's the newbie who has a poorly thought out, incomplete list of hard limits and decides to try a consensual non-consent scene with the guy pulling out the branding pick (and who has no clue that when she said she doesn't have limits beyond kids, scat and animals she doesn't know what the fuck she was talking about) that I worry about. People hide behind safe words and hard limits as if they're some sort of magic get-out-of-harm-free card, instead of seeing them as communication tools that only have a very limited scope of usefulness.

FightingChains -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/22/2014 8:18:44 PM)
Does it keep you safer from a predator? Absolutely not. But it would keep you safer from the unexpected. Some people don't communicate well under pressure, and some people say "no" and "stop would you?" even though deep down they don't want it to stop. A safeword can protect against a dom who doesn't know at that time where the line really is in the sand when consent and difficulty isn't clear. I use it for clarification and ease, and I don't like its need, but it's there fore just that: safety. For people who want to play without it? Great. But it is a risk of the unexpected, or potential misunderstanding. Doms aren't perfect. I keep my safeword more at my other's request. He likes knowing I have an out in danger.

SeekingTrinity -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/22/2014 8:27:01 PM)
~FRing it~ Since no one really knows the entire text of the profile in question OP was referring to, I can't really speculate on the guy one way or the other. Did the rest of his profile indicate that everything including dismemberment and murder was on the table? Did he say anything about his interests or places he won't go too? I too don't really see the problem with stating clearly in a person's profile that they do not honor limits or safe words. It really puts the power in the hands of the person reading the profile. If it's not your cup of tea, you know to run in the other direction like you were being shot at. If it's something you can handle (or that's how you roll too), then you know from the get go that this might be someone you are interested in. Without seeing the full profile myself, I can't judge the guy one way or the other because Im only getting secondhand info filtered through someone else. My guy and I have never used safe words either and this went all the way back to the first time we ever interacted together. But we talked at length before that point and both of our areas of interest/limitations were in sync. We've never felt the need for safe words in all honesty. They are even less significant to us now that we are to a point we are at now. The reality is that every interaction we have with someone else...no matter what type of play it's classified as, we are ultimately taking a leap of faith. Taking BDSM out of the mix entirely, it's still a leap of faith as well. All the safe words and limits in the world will not stop someone bent on causing harm. I'm of the opinion that everyone should do what feels most comfortable for them. Feel better having a safe word to use? Right on. Not your thing? Right on too. But ultimately the responsibility for our personal safety rests with each of us. Words and limits are only as powerful as the honor someone else puts in them when (or if) we use them. Just my honest opinion

frunandsins -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/22/2014 8:44:19 PM)
quote: People hide behind safe words and hard limits as if they're some sort of magic get-out-of-harm-free card, instead of seeing them as communication tools that only have a very limited scope of usefulness. I agree that relying on safe words alone is a bad idea and can lead to a false, unjustified, sense of security. However, I don't think that's what people are advocating, so it looks a bit like a straw man to me. I think safety precautions should be followed, and I have told newbies to use safe-call buddies and secret phrases with their buddies to report safety, as well as leaving the address in written format in their room before they meet, insisting on meeting at a public venue first for non-sex interactions, etc. All the safety rules for online meetings. And safe word is one of them. Having seat belts on doesn't mean you don't need air bags and other safety features, but surely, having it on in addition to the other precautions can't hurt? I accept that for some (many?) people, they take a long time to get to know someone and trust someone before engaging in BDSM and they're willing to accept play with no safe words. Power to them, as long as they're going into it well informed. But not all newbies will wait till they have the introspection level needed for that sort of decision. Safe words are not the magical bullet that protects people from all harm. It doesn't make your play 100% safe. Nothing will, really. But they do have a place in many scenarios.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/22/2014 9:01:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: frunandsins I think safety precautions should be followed, and I have told newbies to use safe-call buddies and secret phrases with their buddies to report safety, as well as leaving the address in written format in their room before they meet, insisting on meeting at a public venue first for non-sex interactions, etc. All the safety rules for online meetings. And safe word is one of them. Having seat belts on doesn't mean you don't need air bags and other safety features, but surely, having it on in addition to the other precautions can't hurt? That's the problem though: safewords are not a safety precaution. Unlike the other stuff you've listed, they do nothing to increase the safety of a first meet. They aren't a precaution to anything at all, because they do not make it harder for anybody to get away with fucking you over. The only thing a safeword does is make it possible to play with consensual non-consent roll play, in which the sub can do stuff like say 'no, no, no!' when they actually mean 'yes, yes, yes!'. Other than to make it clear to the Top that 'no means yes within this context for the purpose of this play' safewords don't do squat either as an additional precaution, or a safety feature. The fact that people seem to think that they somehow increase safety is dangerous, because they don't. Not in the slightest. Because unlike leaving your whereabouts with somebody that will check on you, they don't add any deterrent at all for a predator to push stuff too far with you. I think safe words increase miscommunications within the kink community. I think that unless people have specifically said otherwise things like 'stop' and 'no', 'I'm hurt' and 'I can't take anymore' should mean exactly what they mean, which makes safe words in those context obsolete. And if you're not going to play around with changing the meaning of words, or roll playing that 'no means yes, and stop means go, and I can't take it anymore means go harder' then what a safe words does is put another layer of ambiguity into communication that should be kept as simple and clear as possible. On top of that the common use of safe words has made some Tops think that 'no means yes' when there has been no negotiation about that being the case, but the Top has been confused about that because the bottom didn't safe word. Safe words don't add any security at all, and more often than not overcomplicate communication that is complicated enough as it is.

FightingChains -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/22/2014 9:36:21 PM)
Well I have a certain level of restriction on withdrawal of consent. As in my consent in a scene can never be revoked. Safeword for hard limits crossed or accidental injury. I trust the hard limits will never be crossed, but he insists. I don't view that as over complicating anything.

FieryOpal -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 12:10:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FeralFoxy <snip> In nearly four years together, Alpha and I have never used a safeword, never set limits, and (because we're both into it) cries of "no" or "stop" often do not mean no or stop. But in that time, he has never blown past a point that I was not willing to go past. For one, because I am not aware of any point I would not go past if he asked it of me. For two, because he knows me well enough to recognize genuine distress and act accordingly, as he decides is appropriate. Maybe that puts us on the extreme end of the spectrum, but it has worked very well for us. If I did not trust him that much, we would not be involved. Remember what (plural) your parents used to say: "Do as I say, not as I do." Yeah, that would pertain here. Btw ChatteParfaitt, you have given sound advice, I wanted to emphasize before I get anecdotal in a light-hearted vein. I used to have a vanilla lover who would joke around whenever I tickled him. He would start off saying "Don't!" and "Stop!," then "Do-o-on't" and "Sto-o-op," until after a short while it became: Don't. Stop. Don't...Stop. Don't Stop...Don't Stop...Don't Stop.... (That was just for you, FeralFoxy [:)] )

frunandsins -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 12:45:10 AM)
quote: Unlike the other stuff you've listed, they do nothing to increase the safety of a first meet. They aren't a precaution to anything at all, because they do not make it harder for anybody to get away with fucking you over. But just as airbags and seat belts are meant to protect you against different forms of harms, the function of safe words is not to stop a psychotic murderer from dismembering you. quote: I think safe words increase miscommunications within the kink community. I think that unless people have specifically said otherwise things like 'stop' and 'no', 'I'm hurt' and 'I can't take anymore' should mean exactly what they mean, which makes safe words in those context obsolete. I think this is a bit tautological. If "stop" and "no" can halt the play, then they ARE the safe words, no? Whether we agree that "bagel" or "stop" would lead the Dom to cease the session, they are both serving the same function. So the argument is - why then make things complicated and define a separate word? And the answer is not always about the role play scenario you mentioned, although that is a pretty damn good reason. I see setting aside a specific word for the purpose of stopping play creates a much more jarring interruption in the flow of activities, and it actually reduces ambiguity because there is only one possibly reason why my sub is shouting "bagel" at this time. I enjoy slaves who beg during the session, so things like "Please sir, this hurts" are pretty common. So the safe word allows me to not have to worry about the layers of ambiguities in these types of phrases. quote: And if you're not going to play around with changing the meaning of words, or roll playing that 'no means yes, and stop means go, and I can't take it anymore means go harder' then what a safe words does is put another layer of ambiguity into communication that should be kept as simple and clear as possible. Rape fantasy is pretty common in the community, both for Doms and subs. I think it will be pretty hard to play that out without either a long-standing synched nonverbal communication, or safe words. quote: On top of that the common use of safe words has made some Tops think that 'no means yes' when there has been no negotiation about that being the case, but the Top has been confused about that because the bottom didn't safe word. I question the veracity of this statement. Do we know this? Are Doms who use safe words more likely to violate the consent of their subs when they start to not use safe words? I also question the relevance of your scenario to real life. You are assuming that (1) the Dom/me normally uses safe words so that they are inured to the effect of simple "no" and "stop" demands, AND (2) this Dom/me starts a session with a slave without prior discussion of the matter, AND (3) the Dom/me assumes that despite no discussion, "no" and "stop" are still not believable feedbacks from the sub, AND (4) all of this is a result of using safe words in the first place. As a scenario, this seems tenuous at best. I must also wonder if that's the low opinion you have for Dom/mes who use safe words?

Blueswordsman -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 5:04:21 AM)
frunandsins, I agree, both parties should have an idea of what may happen during play before it begins. Exceeding agreed limits and/or the use of safewords runes the mood. My problem is when does No means No?

FightingChains -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 5:28:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Blueswordsman frunandsins, I agree, both parties should have an idea of what may happen during play before it begins. Exceeding agreed limits and/or the use of safewords runes the mood. My problem is when does No means No? That would have to be between two people to work out. Some people like to assume the dom will just know, and often they will. Some people like to use a safeword because their natural instinct is to try and end it, and they have to think about a safeword. Adds a sort of "helper" that allows them to be natural in play, but allow a way out. Others don't want a no at all. It all depends on the "players". But hasn't this always been the case anyway?

Blueswordsman -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 6:36:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FightingChains quote: ORIGINAL: Blueswordsman frunandsins, I agree, both parties should have an idea of what may happen during play before it begins. Exceeding agreed limits and/or the use of safewords runes the mood. My problem is when does No means No? That would have to be between two people to work out. Some people like to assume the dom will just know, and often they will. Some people like to use a safeword because their natural instinct is to try and end it, and they have to think about a safeword. Adds a sort of "helper" that allows them to be natural in play, but allow a way out. Others don't want a no at all. It all depends on the "players". But hasn't this always been the case anyway? Fighting chains, Anyone who wont except a serious No! Stop! or a Safe word is a dangerous playmate. Unless you know someone intimately and know the care about you, don't assume they will not maim or psychologically destroy you. For the adventurous who want to increase their limits a safe word is necessary. The adventure, sex and power exchange depends on the play partners, Pick the wrong playmate and you may never play again.

FightingChains -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 7:02:50 AM)
As I've said above, I do advocate the use of safe words. I don't know why you are targeting that at me. I'm just saying what some people agree to. Personally: - If my SO says "stop" or "no" I know he's fighting me. That's our kink. If he says "Seriously stop" I stop quick smart and make reparations. I care deeply for him. - If I say "stop" he knows I'm fighting him. If I use my safeword, play pauses. He'll ask why. It's there for safety and to protect my hard limits, not pain. If its due to pain, I've misused the safeword, play would continue and I'd probably be in for hell for the misuse. If it was an actual issue, play stops. Simple. I'd prefer never to have to worry about safewords, but it adds a level of protection from accidents.

ExiledTyrant -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 7:05:10 AM)
"You evil mother-fucker!" Is not a safe word, it is encouragement. Jus sayin Exiled

FightingChains -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 7:14:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant "You evil mother-fucker!" Is not a safe word, it is encouragement. Damn right it's encouragement. If I'm not going off my nut insulting and threatening, he's not being evil enough hehe.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 7:14:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Blueswordsman My problem is when does No means No? And that is why many people choose a safe word outside of the usual set of words when in a play scene. Hence frun's example of the use of the word 'bagel' rather than 'No' - it saves shitloads of confusion. [:D]

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 7:49:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: frunandsins quote: Unlike the other stuff you've listed, they do nothing to increase the safety of a first meet. They aren't a precaution to anything at all, because they do not make it harder for anybody to get away with fucking you over. But just as airbags and seat belts are meant to protect you against different forms of harms, the function of safe words is not to stop a psychotic murderer from dismembering you. quote: I think safe words increase miscommunications within the kink community. I think that unless people have specifically said otherwise things like 'stop' and 'no', 'I'm hurt' and 'I can't take anymore' should mean exactly what they mean, which makes safe words in those context obsolete. I think this is a bit tautological. If "stop" and "no" can halt the play, then they ARE the safe words, no? Whether we agree that "bagel" or "stop" would lead the Dom to cease the session, they are both serving the same function. So the argument is - why then make things complicated and define a separate word? And the answer is not always about the role play scenario you mentioned, although that is a pretty damn good reason. I see setting aside a specific word for the purpose of stopping play creates a much more jarring interruption in the flow of activities, and it actually reduces ambiguity because there is only one possibly reason why my sub is shouting "bagel" at this time. I enjoy slaves who beg during the session, so things like "Please sir, this hurts" are pretty common. So the safe word allows me to not have to worry about the layers of ambiguities in these types of phrases. quote: And if you're not going to play around with changing the meaning of words, or roll playing that 'no means yes, and stop means go, and I can't take it anymore means go harder' then what a safe words does is put another layer of ambiguity into communication that should be kept as simple and clear as possible. Rape fantasy is pretty common in the community, both for Doms and subs. I think it will be pretty hard to play that out without either a long-standing synched nonverbal communication, or safe words. quote: On top of that the common use of safe words has made some Tops think that 'no means yes' when there has been no negotiation about that being the case, but the Top has been confused about that because the bottom didn't safe word. I question the veracity of this statement. Do we know this? Are Doms who use safe words more likely to violate the consent of their subs when they start to not use safe words? I also question the relevance of your scenario to real life. You are assuming that (1) the Dom/me normally uses safe words so that they are inured to the effect of simple "no" and "stop" demands, AND (2) this Dom/me starts a session with a slave without prior discussion of the matter, AND (3) the Dom/me assumes that despite no discussion, "no" and "stop" are still not believable feedbacks from the sub, AND (4) all of this is a result of using safe words in the first place. As a scenario, this seems tenuous at best. I must also wonder if that's the low opinion you have for Dom/mes who use safe words? Thank you for saving my typing fingers Frun. What I'm trying to get my mind around in this discussion is how you take the experience and wisdom of more experienced players who don't use or don't need a safeword, and what counsel you would give to someone who appears to be quite new and is using the internet to find a dominant? Much has been said in this threads about safewords, when it's the not honoring limits that are more of an issue with me. In any case, it's easy to throw out there, 'well, don't play with people you don't trust.' That's excellent advice for anyone. But how would you counsel a new sub who is using the internet to find a dominant? How should trust be established in that situation? How is saying 'I don't honor limits or safewords' not a red flag in that situation? I did want to address how and why I find that predatory, because this world is full of new subs who just read 50 shades and thinks BDSM is all about the kind of romance you find in the typical bodice ripper. They appear not to understand the need to protect themselves. I think some of these subs are going to be those who find the edgier and more extreme players very enticing. How should they go about protecting themselves?

windchymes -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 7:55:08 AM)
There's a big difference between agreeing to a "no limits" session with someone you just met and don't have a clue what they're all about, and a long-term relationship with "no limits". The first implies a huge lack of brains and common sense. You shouldn't be agreeing to "no limits" until you know what their limits really are. And you don't REALLY know somebody until you've spent real life time with them. And the truth is, there is no 100% guarantee of anything. Only pretty sure.

FightingChains -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 8:00:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt I did want to address how and why I find that predatory, because this world is full of new subs who just read 50 shades and thinks BDSM is all about the kind of romance you find in the typical bodice ripper. They appear not to understand the need to protect themselves. I think some of these subs are going to be those who find the edgier and more extreme players very enticing. How should they go about protecting themselves? 1. Don't play with people you don't trust. 2. Don't play with people you don't really trust in private. 3. Don't play casually without safewords and limits. 4. Don't get involved with someone until you know they'll respect you and care about you first and foremost. 5. Don't get involved with someone who won't respect limits until you know what that means, and how that will affect you. 6. Don't get lost in the romance. The potential consequences can be catastrophic. Be careful, and use your head.

JeffBC -> RE: NO Safeword...?? (3/23/2014 8:11:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar I think that the kink community puts to much emphasis on safe words and limits to newbies, and that it creates a false sense of security for those who are new to the scene. THIS! I think the BDSM community has a TON of rituals and mantras and fetishes designed to ward off evil and they wield them like some witch doctor trying to cure a disease by placating the evil spirits. I don't see it quite like LW said because I see all of D/s as a "negotiation". But I just can't wrap my head around why I'd start a relationship with someone who feels the need to throw up 6 dozen walls in order to be "protected" from me. This has nothing to do with kink and everything to do with the question, "Why on God's green earth are you forming a teamwork relationship with your enemy?"

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