RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (Full Version)

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MasterCaneman -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 11:11:35 AM)

Of course it's pointless, SF ship discussions usually are, that's what makes them so fun.

One thing that always bothered me, and my fave universe is no exception, is the annoying habit of bunching ships up close together in combat. It always struck me as a stupid tactic when you put all the juicy targets in one tight formation. Spread them puppies out and make the evil, ugly aliens work for it some!




MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 12:26:05 PM)

Well, yeah. Tactics have never been most sci-fi producers best subject.

The most egregious example is Starship Troopers. Lest run right up to the bug eyed monster, in the reach of their claws, and then start firing with our guns that can shoot for hundreds of meters.

Most directors have trouble visualizing in 3 dimensions. Did you see "Ender's Game" last year? They go all through the spiel about the gate being down and 3 dimensional thinking. Immediately afterwards when Graff calls them to order they all line up perfectly with him.




jlf1961 -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 12:30:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

Well, yeah. Tactics have never been most sci-fi producers best subject.

The most egregious example is Starship Troopers. Lest run right up to the bug eyed monster, in the reach of their claws, and then start firing with our guns that can shoot for hundreds of meters.

Most directors have trouble visualizing in 3 dimensions. Did you see "Ender's Game" last year? They go all through the spiel about the gate being down and 3 dimensional thinking. Immediately afterwards when Graff calls them to order they all line up perfectly with him.


First, that was not what Heinlein envisioned, the book was about soldiers in Powered Combat Armour, kinda like the walker in Aliens only add armor and guns.

It seems that Directors, Producers and screen writers have no clue their is a third dimension.

And there would be none of the long sweeping turns for star fighters, it would be stop, shoot off at a 90 degree angle from previous course.




DomKen -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 12:59:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

Well, yeah. Tactics have never been most sci-fi producers best subject.

The most egregious example is Starship Troopers. Lest run right up to the bug eyed monster, in the reach of their claws, and then start firing with our guns that can shoot for hundreds of meters.

Most directors have trouble visualizing in 3 dimensions. Did you see "Ender's Game" last year? They go all through the spiel about the gate being down and 3 dimensional thinking. Immediately afterwards when Graff calls them to order they all line up perfectly with him.


First, that was not what Heinlein envisioned, the book was about soldiers in Powered Combat Armour, kinda like the walker in Aliens only add armor and guns.

If you google for it there is an essay by the producer, IIRC, of Starship Troopers detailing how it went so horribly wrong. He seems genuinely sorry.




jlf1961 -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 1:47:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

Well, yeah. Tactics have never been most sci-fi producers best subject.

The most egregious example is Starship Troopers. Lest run right up to the bug eyed monster, in the reach of their claws, and then start firing with our guns that can shoot for hundreds of meters.

Most directors have trouble visualizing in 3 dimensions. Did you see "Ender's Game" last year? They go all through the spiel about the gate being down and 3 dimensional thinking. Immediately afterwards when Graff calls them to order they all line up perfectly with him.


First, that was not what Heinlein envisioned, the book was about soldiers in Powered Combat Armour, kinda like the walker in Aliens only add armor and guns.

If you google for it there is an essay by the producer, IIRC, of Starship Troopers detailing how it went so horribly wrong. He seems genuinely sorry.



When I see news that the producer has voluntarily ordered his own punishment by taking 30 lashes with a cat o nine tails or a roman style scourge, I will accept is sincere apology for so totally screwing it up.

I cant wait to see the disaster JJ Abrams is going to do with the Star Wars sequel.




Focus50 -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 2:43:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

In another thread, I pointed out that the "Serenity" looked much better than the Tardis, simply because of the fact the Tardis looks like a blue call box.

Another person, responded with the "Galactica" since it had guns and space fighters.

The truth of the matter is that the Galactica, Imperial Star Destroyers, The Enterprise were perfectly good designs, but they were sterile had no "personality" so to speak.

In all honesty, when it comes to the original star trek universe, the klingon designs were much better than the federation.

But the Millennium Falcon and Serenity have much more personality. They have the "well lived in look" of a privately owned shoe string operation. And Sereniity brings with it the fact that it is held together with the proverbial "spit, bailing wire, and duct tape."

Who can forget the lines"
"Landing is going to get interesting."
"Define 'interesting'"
"Oh god, oh god we are all gonna die."

So hands down, the best sci fi ship is Serenity.


Not so much "Tardis" as subject line related....
 
Seems to me there's enough serial gun nuts here to make me wonder why no-one's mentioned the "predator" from the movie "Star Trek Nemesis" (unless I missed it...).  So long since I last saw it that I'm not even sure that's the actual ship's name now but it certainly looked the part - akin to an old WWII era battleship bristling with all that weaponry.
 
The design I liked least (speaking of "personality" - or character) is the Picard "Enterprise" from "Star Trek - The Can't We All Just Get Along Generation".  I think most of us would imagine living/working space being of a premium in any space ship - ie, the smaller the hull area, the less area to protect or be penetrated by whatever - but those 10ft ceilings and ballroom sized bridge would do any five star hotel proud and just looked wrong for it. 
 
Of course, such was the series' nature that when you factor in that the ship carried its own counsellor, that said counsellor was actually part of the bridge crew, a Klingon in charge of security or a robot trying to be a 1990's "snag" (senisitive new age guy), there's enough nausea to distract from ship design....
 
I just recalled the "Daedalus" (sp?) from Stargate....  That looked more the part of functionally cool lines, IMO.  So much more "athletic" than the former dumpy/frumpy "Prometheus".
 
Focus. 




Darkfeather -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 2:44:13 PM)

Actually, the TARDIS is reliable, more so. It is believed to be sentient, actually connected to the doctor. So much so that it anticipates problems in time and space, and transports him to where he is most needed.




jlf1961 -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 3:16:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

Actually, the TARDIS is reliable, more so. It is believed to be sentient, actually connected to the doctor. So much so that it anticipates problems in time and space, and transports him to where he is most needed.


It was confirmed in the episode "The Doctor's Wife" that the TARDIS is sentient, mores the problem, at least for normal people that dont go running around trying to fix everything.

One, I do not want a hunk of metal making travel plans for me. It is fun to go places just to get into trouble, not because you have to.




MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 4:00:58 PM)

jlf1961, methinks you missed the point of that episode.

The TARDIS isn't a hunk of metal. It's the one companion he's had that will never leave him. Never grow old and die. They are intertwined in a metaphysical way.

The thing most people realize is that Doctor Who is not science fiction. It's a superhero story. The Doctor is basically a demi-god.

If you want to put it into Earth terms - he is a trickster god. Coyote. Loki. Hermes. Kokopelli.

The TARDIS is Fate. Well one of the Fates: she is Clotho.




sloguy02246 -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 4:38:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50


Not so much "Tardis" as subject line related....
 
Seems to me there's enough serial gun nuts here to make me wonder why no-one's mentioned the "predator" from the movie "Star Trek Nemesis" (unless I missed it...).  So long since I last saw it that I'm not even sure that's the actual ship's name now but it certainly looked the part - akin to an old WWII era battleship bristling with all that weaponry.
Focus. 




The Romulan "super" warship in Nemesis was the Scimitar.




jlf1961 -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 4:49:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

jlf1961, methinks you missed the point of that episode.

The TARDIS isn't a hunk of metal. It's the one companion he's had that will never leave him. Never grow old and die. They are intertwined in a metaphysical way.

The thing most people realize is that Doctor Who is not science fiction. It's a superhero story. The Doctor is basically a demi-god.

If you want to put it into Earth terms - he is a trickster god. Coyote. Loki. Hermes. Kokopelli.

The TARDIS is Fate. Well one of the Fates: she is Clotho.


I understand all that, but I was not trying to get into the metaphysical thread running throughout the Dr Who series.

My point is that if I want to go to a bar and get blitz, I would not want my ship to take me somewhere "because I need to be there." You know the way it works, the cavalry arrives in the nick of time, not before.

Besides, a sentient ship probably has some idea of what is legal and what isnt, which for a guy like me, would cramp my style just a bit. Some laws are just stupid, like this stuff about untaxed homemade whiskey.




DomKen -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 7:06:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

Well, yeah. Tactics have never been most sci-fi producers best subject.

The most egregious example is Starship Troopers. Lest run right up to the bug eyed monster, in the reach of their claws, and then start firing with our guns that can shoot for hundreds of meters.

Most directors have trouble visualizing in 3 dimensions. Did you see "Ender's Game" last year? They go all through the spiel about the gate being down and 3 dimensional thinking. Immediately afterwards when Graff calls them to order they all line up perfectly with him.


First, that was not what Heinlein envisioned, the book was about soldiers in Powered Combat Armour, kinda like the walker in Aliens only add armor and guns.

If you google for it there is an essay by the producer, IIRC, of Starship Troopers detailing how it went so horribly wrong. He seems genuinely sorry.



When I see news that the producer has voluntarily ordered his own punishment by taking 30 lashes with a cat o nine tails or a roman style scourge, I will accept is sincere apology for so totally screwing it up.

I cant wait to see the disaster JJ Abrams is going to do with the Star Wars sequel.

He actually likes Star Wars so maybe he won't fuck it up like he did Star Trek, maybe.




DomKen -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 7:14:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

jlf1961, methinks you missed the point of that episode.

The TARDIS isn't a hunk of metal. It's the one companion he's had that will never leave him. Never grow old and die. They are intertwined in a metaphysical way.

The thing most people realize is that Doctor Who is not science fiction. It's a superhero story. The Doctor is basically a demi-god.

If you want to put it into Earth terms - he is a trickster god. Coyote. Loki. Hermes. Kokopelli.

The TARDIS is Fate. Well one of the Fates: she is Clotho.


I understand all that, but I was not trying to get into the metaphysical thread running throughout the Dr Who series.

My point is that if I want to go to a bar and get blitz, I would not want my ship to take me somewhere "because I need to be there." You know the way it works, the cavalry arrives in the nick of time, not before.

Besides, a sentient ship probably has some idea of what is legal and what isnt, which for a guy like me, would cramp my style just a bit. Some laws are just stupid, like this stuff about untaxed homemade whiskey.

The Doctor's TARDIS doesn't care about laws. It stole him and his grand daughter from a museum. It has since been very casual about the rules of time manipulation laid down by the other Time Lords, i.e. it ignores them completely.




Darkfeather -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 7:36:23 PM)

Actually, the Doc can and does often, take that blue box where he likes. The point is when there are wheres or whens that he is needed, he gets a friendly nudge. All the doctors had different relationships wit it, Hartnell pretty much got thrown into danger constantly, Troughton well he was the fighter so he met a lot of big bad enemies. Pertwee, he got stuck on earth so he didn't use it. Baker, it never really worked that well for him, heh. Davidson was always tinkering with it. Colin, well he was doing too much exercising to notice where it was going. McCoy, he was lost himself most times. For each, the TARDIS took them as much where they wanted to go as much as they took it.




littlewonder -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 8:01:28 PM)

It might be bigger on the inside but at least the rooms are well thought out. [:D]



[image]local://upfiles/134279/C994FB8687574963B9DA1E4BFC1A0DCB.gif[/image]




jlf1961 -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 8:58:44 PM)

Of course we have forgotten to mention the C57-D.




DomKen -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 9:10:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

It might be bigger on the inside but at least the rooms are well thought out. [:D]



[image]local://upfiles/134279/C994FB8687574963B9DA1E4BFC1A0DCB.gif[/image]

When the Doctor figures out what happened in series 6 I hope he tells the rest of us. I'm still confused.




Darkfeather -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/22/2014 9:51:50 PM)

Uhm, a time machine capable of traveling from the big bag to the end of all time and space, and no HDMI big screen TV/game room? Flag on the play, the Doc is a guy after all. Besides, that pic doesn't even have a room where he makes nachos, tostitos, pop tarts, and mountain dew shots...




FrostedFlake -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/23/2014 1:06:07 AM)

A few thought on what it would take to make it.

Eddington noted during the eclipse of '19 that starlight is bent as it passes close to the Sun.

Photons have no mass. But they do have energy. And this energy is the equivalent of mass, in terms of being susceptible to the influence of gravity. At the same time, reciprocally and much less surprisingly, if exactly as mysteriously, the mass of the Sun showed by bending the light that it exerted energy. Some might say it is one, but really it is two different observations of the same effect. Mass exerts energy and energy shows itself to be equivalent to mass.

There is more to be drawn from this observation. The absence of mass in the photons coupled with the presence of mass-equivalent energy shows that a moving object has mass over and above and separate from it's rest mass. That is to say, adding speed to an object equates to adding mass. But, how do you add speed to a photon?

In '60, the Pound-Rebka experiment looked at this. The idea was fairly simple. An atom in an excited state that transits to its' base state emits a photon. When the same (kind of) atom in the same base state encounters a photon the same frequency and energy, the atom will absorb the photon and become excited. If the photon is even slightly off, it won't fit. This is the observation that led to Quantum Mechanics. Pound and Rebka exploited this fact in their experiment.

Atop their building they placed a loudspeaker and in it placed a sample of Iron 57. In the basement, 73.8 feet below, they placed another sample and under it a scintillation meter. A gamma ray emitted above that struck the basement sample and was absorbed would not trigger the scintillation counter. A gamma ray that was not absorbed, would. In theory, the iron 57 in the basement should absorb every gamma ray emitted by the sample upstairs. Unless gravity changes something. And it did. Falling toward Earth added energy to the photon, but not speed. The energy added frequency instead. It's totally legal. Frequency is vibration. Vibration is motion. Motion is speed. Gravity blue-shifted the photons and they went right through the sample, triggering the counter.

Clearly, those photons headed up instead of down were red shifted instead of blue shifted. Taken to extreme, the redshift goes all the way to flat. A photon of zero frequency doesn't actually exist. Anymore. This reveals the photon to be something other than an object. That is my original contribution, and differs from particle/wave duality. I think it contradicts, but we'll see.

Getting back to the experiment, they turned on the sig-gen and started applying vibration to the loudspeaker. This moved the sample. They were able to tune the apparatus to cancel the effect of gravity, when the sample was on the upstroke. They read the gear, did the math, wrote the paper got a pat on the back and everything was great. But this experiment does not bode well for high speed space travel. Because it says that flying through space real fast Doppler shifts the radiation encountered on the way. Go fast enough, and the photon flying at you from in front will Doppler shift all the way up to hard X-rays. And that'll keep you coffee hot.

This is why I doubt Earth has ever been or ever will be visited by extraterrestrials. Forget about the energy requirements, I can't see how they could get here alive. A starship built to appropriate safety standards would probably be indestructible, short of striking a star. And, naturally, leaning on it with pride of ownership beaming off his face, would be God himself. Or maybe Gods' kid. depending on how rich God is.

So, turning back to 'practical starship design', I'd have to say it should probably be pretty outlandish. And maybe not actually travel through space, physically, at all. Conveniently, that would likely moot artificial gravity, so is not as expensive as might seem.




sunshinemiss -> RE: A rational discussion on the merits of various ship designs in Sci Fi (3/23/2014 4:41:53 AM)

Captain Jack's Sex Dungeon - that made my day!

I have always liked the idea of round ships... like in Contact. (Or am I remembering this wrong?)




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