RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/24/2014 9:22:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Aside from the town clerk, all my examples are in the private sector.




True enough, but we have to start somewhere.

Let's add another to your list. Back in the starving student days, I would spend the odd Saturday morning as a paid signature gatherer. Should I have been able to pick and choose which petitions I had available for voters to sign?



DaddySatyr -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/24/2014 9:48:50 PM)

I would never be on board with any public sector services being denied for just about any reason (obviously, there are some extremes that people could nit-pick about; the easiest ones would be gender-based).

I do think there are some dis-incentives that could be offered that might have little effect but, they might have huge effect.

I need to pick a really far-out example but I'm doing that to eliminate some of the aforementioned nit-picking.

If we allowed ... GM to refuse to do business with a dealership owned by a gay person, that's pretty despicable but, when the new military contract for vehicles came up (not just combat equipment but also all the cars used by all the "officials" in the military), we would ban them from bidding on that government contract. Also, forget about them asking for another government bail-out.

Now, this has to be specific; not that GM refused to do business with someone that was selling dented cars as new that just happens to be gay. Their reasoning has to be something along the lines of: "We don't want to appear to be promoting homosexuality".

I think that choice is a great thing but, the consequences of those choices shouldn't be eliminated.






TheHeretic -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/24/2014 9:58:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I don't know if I could do my best work if my heart weren't into it.

For example; if someone hired my band to play at wedding or funeral for one of the posters here who've shown so much animus toward me, I don't know if I could really get behind it. Hence, I wouldn't be providing my best work (music is a very emotional thing) and people that are guests might pick up on that which would be detrimental to possible future employment.







I think this is an excellent point, Michael.



SweetAnise -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/24/2014 9:59:48 PM)

To the OP: The dude is dead what difference does it make who arranges the flowers? He won't see them. But no one can be made to do anything. If I don't wish to arrange flowers for him I give his family a referral to someone else. If I don't wish to bake a cake for a gay couple- I refer them to someone else. People are so entitled today as if everyone is suppose to bow down and do what is ask of them. But this is a free country and I can choose to do something or not; and it doesn't have to be about someone being gay or dead & disliked...just what I don't feel like it. Sometimes that has to be good enough. Some people make things into something more than it actually is....



LanceHughes -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/24/2014 10:20:49 PM)

I've got a great follow-on. As we all know, Phelp's main claim to fame was protesting at funerals.... many cities and states passed legislation setting up distance boundaries around funerals. How 'bout a circle that moves WITH the procession? And those rainbow flowers made me think of the pride parade arches made of rainbow ballons.... let's put up arches over all main thorofares leading from church to grave.... What kinda law applies in that instance?



BamaD -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/24/2014 10:23:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

People have the right to refuse service.

Personally, if I was a gay florist, I'd jump at the chance to make a buck off of someone that despised me with every fiber of his being. Irony is fun.

Didn't say I wouldn't just that I don't think he should be forced to, it should be his choice.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/24/2014 10:26:10 PM)

You'd probably need some kind of permit or something from the municipality/county/state, depending upon who "owns" which roads that the route is on.

I don't know if that could happen fast enough. However, if you had these arches and had people carrying them ; not "securing them", you might could get away with that.

Of course, you're at a speed disadvantage because the funeral procession could just speed up.

ETA: You'd also have to be damned sure that you never blocked any traffic signals or signs.





quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

let's put up arches over all main thorofares leading from church to grave.... What kinda law applies in that instance?




BamaD -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/24/2014 10:27:11 PM)

"-- An unreconstructed town clerk who sincerely believes miscegenation is wrong refuses to
grant Kym and Mark a marriage license because they're an interracial couple.
Whose rights trump whose? "

This one was settled by the courts decades ago, it was ruled as unconstitutional racial
discrimination.



LanceHughes -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/24/2014 10:38:29 PM)

By the way, my post above was supposed to be in sarcasm font. I keep looking for it, but.... well, the WWW is a vast place. Must be around here someplace.

When Phelps and crew were protesting the March on Washington by yelling at the parade, I started the chant "Hate is Sin." One of the proudest moments in my life was hearing it continue as we marchers moved down Pennsylvania Ave. People picked it up as they passed Phelps and it was (I can only presume) continuously chanted, covering their meager attempts at what? intimidation.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/24/2014 10:41:51 PM)

No sarcasm font needed. I think it's a great idea for protest that doesn't completely defile a funeral.

It's certainly a lot more "polite" than what phelps and his minions gave to the families of dead soldiers.

I almost wish the son of a bitch had shown up at my son's funeral. The place was lousy with law enforcement and they'd have found some infraction to charge them with (along with the "resisting arrest" that I am quite sure would have occurred [:D] ).






joether -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/25/2014 5:42:50 AM)

I've been in several positions in jobs were sooner or later, I would be dealing with someone I did not like for a mountain of different reasons. I would simply maintain professionalism, do what the job required and handle the whole thing with a smile. Most people could not handle some of the characters I've encountered. An they are worst on full moons!

If the WBC contacted a florist I knew was gay, I would laugh my ass off. I'm sure the florist would be professional about the whole ordeal. If you can not behave like an adult and as a professional, letting your religious beliefs get in the way of the job; perhaps you do not need the job. Oh look, I need to lay someone off next month.....how convenient....






Marc2b -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/25/2014 6:34:33 AM)

The question is based upon a false equivalency, namely that your average gay couple, normal decent people, are the same as Fred Phelps, the human equivalent of the gold tracks on your underwear. So, the answer is no (although I'd think they'd be delighted to . . . they'd probably do it for free).



Takodaman -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/25/2014 6:39:47 AM)

Of course they should have to. Bigotry is bigotry and should not be tolerated in any business



Marc2b -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/25/2014 9:02:08 AM)

You're engaging in the same false equivalency that the OP is. Refusing to serve someone because of their involuntary inclusion of a group (in this case, homosexuals) because of an immutable trait (homosexuality) is bigotry. Refusing to serve someone because of their voluntary inclusion in a group (in this case, homophobes) for a choice (homophobia) is not.



kdsub -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/25/2014 9:33:57 AM)

Rich

I am going to guess your purpose in this thread is to point out the hypocrisy of being AGAINST the baker refusing service yet FOR the hypothetical gay florist refusing service. I think you believe it is a right of any business owner to refuse service even though to you in some instances morally wrong. I can respect this view.

Because of your posts and others, in particular dc’s but others as well, I am changing my opinion although still not agreeing with you. After further consideration I now believe it is wrong for both to deny service and here is why.

In another thread on this issue I proposed a hypothetical situation where a gay man traveling through rural Missouri were to become severely ill or in need of a prescription drug such as insulin. In his being denied service by a straight doctor or druggist because of religious principals his life was put at risk. This could apply to food or a mechanic or lodging any other service. It is a slippery slope denying service in a public venue and I am against that.

This thread has forced me to turn my thinking around and apply it to a gay doctor or druggist or florist denying service to a member of the Westboro Baptist Church dead or alive. It is also wrong and I cannot have it both ways.

I still think there is a big difference in the situations and I still would hope the law would also see this difference but I can see how this would make me hypocritical in my thinking.

The bottom line to me is no business open to the general public should be allowed to deny service to anyone legally willing to pay for your advertised or implied service.

To do so would be like a black restaurant owner denying service to a member of the clan who is just trying to get a bite to eat and not marching through his dinning area with signs… Abhorrent but the price you must pay as a business owner open to the public.

Butch



BamaD -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/25/2014 9:38:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

By the way, my post above was supposed to be in sarcasm font. I keep looking for it, but.... well, the WWW is a vast place. Must be around here someplace.

When Phelps and crew were protesting the March on Washington by yelling at the parade, I started the chant "Hate is Sin." One of the proudest moments in my life was hearing it continue as we marchers moved down Pennsylvania Ave. People picked it up as they passed Phelps and it was (I can only presume) continuously chanted, covering their meager attempts at what? intimidation.

They announced that they were going to protest at the funeral, in a nearby town, of a 19 year old who
was killed in Iraq. The Sheriff informed them that they had every legal right to do so but he didn't have
the manpower to protect them. They called off the protest.



Owner59 -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/25/2014 10:06:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetAnise

To the OP: The dude is dead what difference does it make who arranges the flowers? He won't see them. But no one can be made to do anything. If I don't wish to arrange flowers for him I give his family a referral to someone else. If I don't wish to bake a cake for a gay couple- I refer them to someone else. People are so entitled today as if everyone is suppose to bow down and do what is ask of them. But this is a free country and I can choose to do something or not; and it doesn't have to be about someone being gay or dead & disliked...just what I don't feel like it. Sometimes that has to be good enough. Some people make things into something more than it actually is....



We talk`n about someone who`s defended a criminal`s right to use hate speech during their crime........[8|]



Go figure.



vincentML -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/25/2014 10:11:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

You're engaging in the same false equivalency that the OP is. Refusing to serve someone because of their involuntary inclusion of a group (in this case, homosexuals) because of an immutable trait (homosexuality) is bigotry. Refusing to serve someone because of their voluntary inclusion in a group (in this case, homophobes) for a choice (homophobia) is not.

Sexual orientation and religion are BOTH protected classes under the Civil Rights Act. The gay florist would be acting illegally imo, denying service for Fred's religious activities and his religious funeral.



eulero83 -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/25/2014 10:20:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

You're engaging in the same false equivalency that the OP is. Refusing to serve someone because of their involuntary inclusion of a group (in this case, homosexuals) because of an immutable trait (homosexuality) is bigotry. Refusing to serve someone because of their voluntary inclusion in a group (in this case, homophobes) for a choice (homophobia) is not.


It would be true in a different country with defamation criminal laws, in the usa they are equivalent.



dcnovice -> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral? (3/25/2014 10:23:47 AM)

quote:

This thread has forced me to turn my thinking around and apply it to a gay doctor or druggist or florist denying service to a member of the Westboro Baptist Church dead or alive. It is also wrong and I cannot have it both ways.


We don't always agree, I know, but I always admire your honesty and sincere willingness to look at things from new angles. Bravo!



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