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RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/5/2014 8:39:05 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Why do they have to pray before a town meeting anyway? What's the point?

It's called an invocation. It's a symbolic ritual - normally a request that the leaders find wisdom. There really only seems to be one particular faith-based sect that gets pissy about doing it, but that bunch are intolerant as hell, and extremely vocal.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 21

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/5/2014 8:51:51 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Why do they have to pray before a town meeting anyway? What's the point?

The Court didn't say they had to, it said they could, that's called freedom.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 22

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/5/2014 10:12:47 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Why do they have to pray before a town meeting anyway? What's the point?

It's called an invocation. It's a symbolic ritual - normally a request that the leaders find wisdom. There really only seems to be one particular faith-based sect that gets pissy about doing it, but that bunch are intolerant as hell, and extremely vocal.

Want to bet that if I arrange for the invocation to be to Satan that a whole bunch of people will get pissy? The fact is that Christians always claim it is ok to roll over everyone else's rights but if anyone even sort of approaches their privileges its the end of the world, see the annual whining about the "war" on Christmas because some people choose to say "Happy Holidays."

The establishment clause was meant to keep the government from favoring any religion. That should include having sectarian prayers at the start of official government functions. That simply serves to say "this group is included and everyone else is excluded" which fairly obviously is the exact wrong message for government to be sending.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 23

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/5/2014 11:06:26 PM

SadistDave

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Unless you're locked in and compelled to convert to their religion when a government official invokes the imaginary sky-fairy of his or her understanding, your rights are not being violated. If it really offends you, leave the room until the prayer is over. The Constitution gives government officials as much of a right to pray as it gives you not to have to stick around and listen to it.

-SD-

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To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 24

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/5/2014 11:36:09 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Want to bet

Are you trying to make a joke, Ken?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 25

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 12:00:40 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Want to bet

Are you trying to make a joke, Ken?

No, I'm asking you a question. Want to bet if I arrange for a city council session to open with an invocation to Satan that no Christians will get pissy. You implied that only atheists ever have a problem with this stuff. I'm simply pointing out that certain Christians will have a huge problem as soon as the prayer isn't to their deity.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 26

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 12:05:21 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Want to bet that if I arrange for the invocation to be to Satan that a whole bunch of people will get pissy?

The desired effect of an invocation is to set the proceedings that follow apart from the petty concerns that afflict ordinary life by pausing for a moment of calmness in which the members of the body are caused to reflect on the importance of the responsibilities that rest on their shoulders and the need for them to bring their better selves to the task that they are about to undertake.

An Islamist delivering an invocation that appealed to Allah to destroy the Jews in the room, or a Christian delivering an invocation that appealed to God to destroy the gays in the room, so that the body might be purged of their taint, would be certain to provoke justifiable outrage. So I think it fair to say that the religion of the invocator or lack thereof would not be the relevant factor.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/6/2014 12:20:33 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 27

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 2:54:16 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Why do they have to pray before a town meeting anyway? What's the point?

The Court didn't say they had to, it said they could, that's called freedom.

AND they said that you can disparage Jews by praying "In Jesus' Name".

Anti-Semites. Period.

Where's MY religious freedom to not have my religion disparaged as I try to conduct PUBLIC BUSINESS?

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/6/2014 2:55:10 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 28

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 3:09:35 AM

Zonie63

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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Why do they have to pray before a town meeting anyway? What's the point?

The Court didn't say they had to, it said they could, that's called freedom.

I didn't say that the court said had to. Apparently, the leaders of this town feel some incessant need to pray, so they're the ones saying that they "have to" pray. (So much for "freedom," huh?) I was just wondering why. If, as TheHeretic said, they're praying for wisdom, then I don't think they have a prayer.

< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 5/6/2014 3:11:12 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 29

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 5:00:28 AM

chatterbox24

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Joined: 1/22/2012
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Insulting? Seriously?
ITs insulting to me to call Christian prayer anti-Semite. If the Jewish was represented and prayed their prayer, outloud , I would quietly add in silence what I need for my own belief. I certainly wouldn't be insulted by a prayer to bless the proceedings. I have nothing against jewish people. If the way one group prays, is insulting to a person, I do believe your tolerance level needs adjusted. I think the American Christian people have been pretty tolerant thus far.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

More to the point, the prayer needs to be "Ceremonial" and "Meaningless". And to avoid offending Jews like myself, you need to avoid mentioning referring to the idolatry inherent in worshipping images of "Jesus", referring to any "New Covenant", "Holy Spirit", "Ressurection", "Died for our sins", or other New Testament rejection of my religion.

*I* do not need to be insulted by your prayer. And if your prayer IS insulting to me, IN A PUBLIC SPACE, then the prayer is wrong, not me.

If you're praying "In Jesus' Name", you're doing it wrong.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 30

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 5:37:14 AM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Why do they have to pray before a town meeting anyway? What's the point?

It's called an invocation. It's a symbolic ritual - normally a request that the leaders find wisdom.

So theorhetically adult individuals pray to their imaginary friend to become less guillable...oooook

There really only seems to be one particular faith-based sect

So in your ignorant opinion it is not even a religion but a sect...how amerikan of you.

that gets pissy about doing it, but that bunch are intolerant as hell, and extremely vocal.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 31

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 5:40:51 AM

thompsonx

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The desired effect of an invocation is to set the proceedings that follow apart from the petty concerns that afflict ordinary life by pausing for a moment of calmness in which the members of the body are caused to reflect on the importance of the responsibilities that rest on their shoulders and the need for them to bring their better selves to the task that they are about to undertake.

Or it might be viewed as a hypocritical sop

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 32

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 5:43:28 AM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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I think the American Christian people have been pretty tolerant thus far.

The history books take a little different perspective.

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 33

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 5:46:56 AM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Unless you're locked in and compelled to convert to their religion when a government official invokes the imaginary sky-fairy of his or her understanding, your rights are not being violated.

That would be your ignornt,untutored, puerile opinion.

If it really offends you, leave the room until the prayer is over.

How bout if you dont bring that offensive pile of dog turds to the table.

The Constitution gives government officials as much of a right to pray as it gives you not to have to stick around and listen to it.

That seems to be the case with this decission by scotus.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/6/2014 5:47:28 AM >

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 34

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 6:01:48 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The desired effect of an invocation is to set the proceedings that follow apart from the petty concerns that afflict ordinary life by pausing for a moment of calmness in which the members of the body are caused to reflect on the importance of the responsibilities that rest on their shoulders and the need for them to bring their better selves to the task that they are about to undertake.

An Islamist delivering an invocation that appealed to Allah to destroy the Jews in the room, or a Christian delivering an invocation that appealed to God to destroy the gays in the room, so that the body might be purged of their taint, would be certain to provoke justifiable outrage. So I think it fair to say that the religion of the invocator or lack thereof would not be the relevant factor.

K.

[/font][/size]

You are aware, are you not, that historically Crusaders, Jihadists, etc. INVOKE THEIR GOD, before killing people in the name of their faith. The invoking of god is absolutely not limited to peaceful situations. You are correct that one invokes god to reflect on the IMPORTANCE of RESPONSIBILITIES that rest on their shoulders and the need of them to bring their BETTER SELVES to the TASK that they are about to UNDERTAKE - because invoking god is EXACTLY what the 9/11 terrorists did as they embarked on their terrorist acts. They had important responsibilities and were going to bring their better selves to the task they were undertaking which was to kill the infidels. I am sure the Crusaders did the same in their time and place.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 35

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 6:10:49 AM

evesgrden

Posts: 597
Joined: 6/9/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Why do they have to pray before a town meeting anyway? What's the point?

The Court didn't say they had to, it said they could, that's called freedom.

AND they said that you can disparage Jews by praying "In Jesus' Name".

Anti-Semites. Period.

Where's MY religious freedom to not have my religion disparaged as I try to conduct PUBLIC BUSINESS?

Jesus is a pretty famous Jew. Just like his mother Mary. He was a good man and he was a good Jew. It's not disparaging.

_____________________________

What you permit, you promote.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 36

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 6:12:07 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Unless you're locked in and compelled to convert to their religion when a government official invokes the imaginary sky-fairy of his or her understanding, your rights are not being violated. If it really offends you, leave the room until the prayer is over. The Constitution gives government officials as much of a right to pray as it gives you not to have to stick around and listen to it.

-SD-

Why should any resident or citizen be forced to leave a PUBLIC meeting? If it is a public meeting then it has to be conducted in a way to make all of the public feel welcome for the ENTIRETY of the meeting. Otherwise it is NOT public meeting. Holding a private religious ceremony is not something that should be part of a governmental public meeting. The two are not the same.

I could turn this around and simply say that any governmental official who wants to pray should go their house of worship (or do it completely silently). There are times and places for prayer. I don't see why or how a PUBLIC meeting is one of them UNLESS you don't actually want all members of the public there. If you want to conduct an exclusionary meeting then this seems a good way to start it i.e., invoking some people's beliefs but not others. And if we were to invoke everyone's we would be there til the cows come home. According to estimates there are 4,200 religions in the world. Even if you only gave each one 30 seconds that is still 35 HOURS of prayer before the meeting can start in order to truly call it a PUBLIC meeting. Explain to me how exactly that is going to work if every time there is a meeting there has to be3 35 hours of prayer before it can start?? So for a one hour meeting they have to book space for 36 hours. Or for a one hour meeting they have to book a space for 5 consecutive days.

Religion and prayer are PRIVATE matters for people to do ON THEIR OWN TIME.

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 37

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 6:25:03 AM

chatterbox24

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Joined: 1/22/2012
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History is called history because it is of the past. It is something to learn from, not to represent future results. History is full of a lot of terrible happenings and it also full of a lot of good things. People tend to base their beliefs on media, and a lot of times the negative media. I would venture to say people are prone to enjoy the negative and thrive on it. Then they base their entire beliefs on an entire group. Now what we have going on is people who want to change the laws to suit whatever their heart desires, things that have been in place and has worked, but coming here, living here, then trying to force issues like cry babies is ridiculous. SO sorry, but I don't feel the need to be political correct on every issue. If sensitivities run that deep, then I would be looking for a new place to live, because wow, its gotten to the point you cant turn around without someone saying. "Prejudice, discrimination, wah wah wah" That's exactly how I feel about it. These are words not bullets if they offend you. I say well I could be offended by a lot of things but I will choice not to be offended until being tolerance is so ignorant, I feel I need to take a stance. The people minority and majority are trying to be protected from real issues, not little offenses but people still cry, never satisfied. For anyone that cant seed that, then take your blinders off.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I think the American Christian people have been pretty tolerant thus far.

The history books take a little different perspective.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 38

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 6:47:25 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Insulting? Seriously?
ITs insulting to me to call Christian prayer anti-Semite. If the Jewish was represented and prayed their prayer, outloud , I would quietly add in silence what I need for my own belief. I certainly wouldn't be insulted by a prayer to bless the proceedings. I have nothing against jewish people. If the way one group prays, is insulting to a person, I do believe your tolerance level needs adjusted. I think the American Christian people have been pretty tolerant thus far.

The Constitution is tolerant (at least it was until this ruling). The American people, not always so much. And that is precisely why the Constitution needs to be defended. If all Americans are so tolerant of other religions how do things like the following happen on American soil? Violent religious conflict is not something that just happens in other parts of the world. These things happen here too. Do you really think all American Christians welcome and love people of other faiths? And if all American Christians do not welcome and love people of other faiths, don't you think people of other faiths deserve protection in some way? Even though you and I probably could not have prevented the incidents below, the one thing we can prevent is forcing people to listen to other people's prayers when they are not interested in doing so. Seems the bare minimum that we can do when people are actually dying due to intolerance. When incidents like this occur doesn't it seem wrong to you for Jews or Sikhs to be forced to listen to a Christian prayer at a public meeting? Don't you think that is going to make them feel uncomfortable when we all know there are some white Christians who want to actually see Jews and Sikhs dead? Is that fair (when everyone is perfectly free to pray on their own time). Do you really think Christianity can only survive if prayer is allowed at public meetings? Does anything prevent Christians from praying at home, church, privately? No one is trying to interfere with their right to do that when we say we don't want prayer in public government meetings.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/14/us/kansas-shooting-suspect-profile/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Sikh_temple_shooting

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 39

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/6/2014 7:06:24 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
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Those people are not Christians. I can say I am a Jew, I can say I am an atheist, I can say I am a man, I can say anything but it doesn't make it true. Sadly those people might even think in their minds this is Christian. Its not. Hate is not Christian and those people who do this, make me want to vomit.

Jewish people don't believe Jesus was the messiah, so ok that's different then what I beleive! Jesus was a Jew!!!! So I love the Jewish people, I want no harm to come to them and anyone who harms them is a sad person, so totally misdirected. I cant help who they are, only they can help who they are.

Really if its so offensive to people, maybe it should be a time of silence, to allow people to reflect, focus, or even pray. But to me its ridiculous what people make up in their head about Christians or other religions period. A lot of people determine how they feel when they don't know one person of that faith! Whatever that faith may be.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

Post #: 40

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