RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


thompsonx -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 3:30:49 PM)

The regime change in libya is a disaster - and snuffing OBL is not a foreign policy success. Its an assassination.


Only in the ingorant opinion of mongoloids do the foriegn affairs of the u.s. not include interactions with foriegners.



No one contests the USA can conduct assassinations.

Where did you get this ignorant,idiotic opinion? It is called murder every place except the u.s.


Assassination via drone is almost synonymous with Obama's foreign policy. Oh yeah. That and spying on world leaders.

didn't you approve of the drones and spying when it was done by someone who was not black?['b]




thompsonx -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 3:32:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:


Just like hitler seizing the sudentenland was not our business. Not our business .. how did ignoring the sudentenland work out for us...



It worked out real well for us, we didnt enter into that war until it was 3 and a half years in, or we would have had our clock cleaned immediately.





Even with the 3 and a half years to prepare the asswhippen administered to the u.s. army at kasarine pass validates your point.




Politesub53 -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 3:38:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Just to make sure we are on the same page, why don't you link a few of the racist comments people have made about Obama on Collarme. I am sure it won't take but a minute if the problem is as bad as you claim.

Just type my name and racist into the search engine.

FAIL





I searched "politesub53" and "racist" and the only place I saw them, together was in the dictionary. Jus' sayin'







Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?


A big F.U.

Still, it`s good to see all the deniers coming out of the closet.




thompsonx -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 3:39:27 PM)


Libya had one of the highest regards of any muslim country towards the US.

Isn't that the country we bombed trying to kill their president? How is it that they loved us after that?



But now the country is mired in a civil war that *your* president supported.

Unless you have renounced your citzenship and moved out he is your president also.




Phydeaux -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 6:27:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The regime change in libya is a disaster - and snuffing OBL is not a foreign policy success. Its an assassination.


Only in the ingorant opinion of mongoloids do the foriegn affairs of the u.s. not include interactions with foriegners.



No one contests the USA can conduct assassinations.

Where did you get this ignorant,idiotic opinion? It is called murder every place except the u.s.


Assassination via drone is almost synonymous with Obama's foreign policy. Oh yeah. That and spying on world leaders.

didn't you approve of the drones and spying when it was done by someone who was not black?['b]


Ah another day another ignorant thompsonx quote.

I actually do support the presidents use of drones, generally. I have never supported the expansion of the Patriot act and my opposition to it is consistent and predates Obama.

The question however isn't whether I support them or not. The question is - what are Obama's foreign policy successes.
Hell, I doubt you can even enumerate a coherent policy.

You can't say its to renounce war as a tool of statecraft - we attacked Libya - and he wanted to attack Syria.
Cooperation with the Russians / Chinese? Hmm.. doesn't look it.

Obama has no foreign policy goals - thereby he is only reacting to events.





TheHeretic -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 6:42:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Yes dopey bollocks, despite voting Conservative most of my life, I am a liberal. Why ? because I dont agree with your fuckwit opinions.

Lets just reming you that calling the President the N word is indeed racist to most normal thinking people. What say you ?




You're being recognized by the dick you choose to suck, Polite.

This thread has nothing to do with the racist old fuck who has now resigned. You'll find that one titled with a reference to free speech. It came up here because a shitbag who cannot defend the President's failures decided to throw a slur, and you chimed in to put his balls in your mouth.

Choke on them.




Zonie63 -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 7:29:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Three problems:

1) you haven't said what those "national interests" are -- that's the question. this is all vague


I would say anything that is necessary to maintain our sovereignty, self-determination, and national survival.

quote:


2) those aren't "initiatives," but rather, things you don't want done. what initiatives should be launched?


Well, the only initiative would be to announce to the world that they should no longer consider America to be the "arsenal of democracy" and perhaps make proposals for a regional power system. Better for us if we're only North America's policeman, rather than the world's policeman.

quote:


3) your success definition begs the question as well. what, for example, doesn't peace in the Middle East look like? A cease fire? An independent Palestine? A disarmed Iran? A disposed Syrian ruler? What?


If there's unrest and fighting in any of those countries, then that would clearly mean that there's not peace in the Middle East. It need not be terribly complicated. I actually believe that the idea of "peace in the Middle East" is an unattainable goal, or at least, it's not something that "we" would be able to achieve through hegemonic means.

That's part of the problem with what we're trying to do. We're trying to exert hegemony over other countries while still trying to pass off the notion that these are sovereign and independent governments. We claim to want a world of free trade, cooperation, and peaceful coexistence, but that may not be possible in a world of a couple hundred sovereign countries, many of which are either unstable or have quasi-nationalistic governments with goals antithetical to our government's goals.

So, we either need to have more realistic goals, or we need to change the accepted methods used in attaining these goals.




Musicmystery -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 7:32:22 PM)

This again begs the question. What *are* those necessary things, and again, your "initiatives" are "stop-doings" instead.

It's hard to take the right actions when those actions can't be specifically identified.

Nor could anyone then be faulted for not taking them.

See the point now?




thishereboi -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 7:33:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Just to make sure we are on the same page, why don't you link a few of the racist comments people have made about Obama on Collarme. I am sure it won't take but a minute if the problem is as bad as you claim.

Just type my name and racist into the search engine.

FAIL






yea, not sure what the point of that was




Zonie63 -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 7:50:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

This again begs the question. What *are* those necessary things, and again, your "initiatives" are "stop-doings" instead.

It's hard to take the right actions when those actions can't be specifically identified.

Nor could anyone then be faulted for not taking them.

See the point now?


I wasn't faulting anybody, and honestly, I really don't see your point here. All I was doing was making some generalized thoughts about the direction America's foreign policy should take and what goals there should be that could benefit America. Apparently, there's something that I wrote that you take issue with, although I'm not sure why you're quibbling over "initiatives" versus "stop doings."

I'm just saying that we should do things differently, which means we stop doing some things that we are doing. Whether that conforms to your idea of what an "initiative" is, I can't really comment on that. I'm not sure where you're coming from with all this.




Musicmystery -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 7:55:52 PM)

And the question on the table is, what specifically should we do then?

Generalized thoughts aren't actionable.




DaddySatyr -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 8:09:28 PM)

I'd like to see this country return quite a bit more to our isolationist stance from right before WWII.

I want all the troops recalled home ... well ... almost home (I'll come back to this later).

I want us to stop acting like/believing we have this God-given edict to make sure that "democracy" is practiced everywhere on the globe. It's none of our fucking business.

I want us to stop all foreign aid so that we can use that to balance the budget, eventually.

I want to rescind all free trade agreements and go back to making it more advantageous for businesses to work here. One caveat; if we must continue the failure that is free trade, I want it to be truly free. I want us to enforce the penalties when our "friends" abrogate those agreements.

I want our troops placed at the borders (maybe just on the other side of them to head off the moaning and gnashing of teeth about posse comitatus) to keep out the people that don't belong here.

I want the internment camp at Guantanamo Bay finally fucking closed; like someone promised to do, six years ago (and yes, I consider that "foreign policy").

I want the AG of the US to enforce all the laws of this country, not just the ones that he and the present failure-in-chief agree with.

I want "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations - entangling alliances with none ..."







Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?




Zonie63 -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/19/2014 10:53:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And the question on the table is, what specifically should we do then?

Generalized thoughts aren't actionable.


I don't think I have any quick, ready-made answers. It's a complicated question. Realistically, I think we may have to prepare for a period of increasing global instability.

I think that our primary foreign policy focus should be on our own "neighborhood," first and foremost. We should normalize relations with Cuba, for one thing. We should also nurture and develop a much closer relationship with Mexico, try to help them stabilize the cartel violence, as well as their economy, infrastructure, industry, etc. Build them up into a first world power (which would also help resolve many of our current immigration issues). Likewise with the nations of Central and South America. By strengthening and forging closer ties with our own region for our own mutual benefit and self-defense, we could potentially create a formidable alliance spanning the entire hemisphere.

As for the Eastern Hemisphere, our foreign policy should eventually reach a point of detachment. If we can successfully build up a powerful hemisphere-wide alliance (which would be a tall order, in and of itself), we would be in a far stronger position in dealing with the other major powers of the world. There are some unstable areas and situations which could deemed "worrisome." The Middle East, Africa, East Asia, Ukraine. Old rivalries, territorial disputes, religious discord, ethnic/nationalist unrest - we can't get involved in those kinds of conflicts. We shouldn't play favorites or take sides, even if it's under the pretext of protecting "freedom" and "democracy."

I'm not saying that any of this would come off, but given the current world situation, I think our best bet may to do all that we can to build up a power bloc in our own region in order to better withstand a possible increase in global instability. By extricating ourselves from that instability in the Eastern Hemisphere, we can better protect ourselves in the event that a minor conflict turns into a major conflict. I honestly don't believe that either China or Russia would start a world war, since they still remember what the last one was like, as it affected both their countries quite severely. The EU can fend for itself.

The United Nations can continue its proper role of mediating disputes between nations and (perhaps) imposing a quarantine on hot spots, in order to contain the violence and keep it from spreading to other countries. The US can play a more supportive role in such instances, but we need not play a leading role.







tweakabelle -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/20/2014 6:15:11 AM)

Here are some specific proposals that could form the basis of a new US foreign policy. This list is neither exclusive nor exhaustive. There are many other principles and policies that could be included in a saner and more successful US foreign policy:

1. The underlying principles of US foreign policy to be Peace, Reciprocity (treating all countires the way the US would like to be treated by all), Promotion of Human Rights and Constructive Engagement with all countries that share this approach;
2. Security and Military Alliances, Favourable Trading Status etc. offered only to countries that practice democracy, the rule of law, observe and respect human rights ie share the same principles set out in 1. Armaments sales to be restricted to same;
3. Recognition that the best long term basis for world peace is freedom and prosperity, that it is in the US's and world's best interests for all countries to prosper economically. The US to adopt strategic postures and trading policies that incorporate this view.
4. Disavow the notion of unilateral policing/military action in favour of Multilateralism. Consign the role of world policeman to the UN. Except for 3 above, any overseas military engagements only through the UN;
5. Abandon the notion of US exceptionalism, that it has a unique role or status in the world. The US is special in many respects but in the final analysis it is but one nation among the c200 nations in today's world. Instead, promote the universal adoption of these principles to ensure long term peace prosperity and mutual respect between all nations.

Zonie's proposal for the US to promote a North American 'regional' alliance deserves consideration. It is consistent with the ideas set out above.




thompsonx -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/20/2014 7:08:52 AM)

I want our troops placed at the borders (maybe just on the other side of them to head off the moaning and gnashing of teeth about posse comitatus) to keep out the people that don't belong here.

Wha is wrong with them being on our side of the line?




thompsonx -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/20/2014 7:10:00 AM)

Well, the only initiative would be to announce to the world that they should no longer consider America to be the "arsenal of democracy" and perhaps make proposals for a regional power system. Better for us if we're only North America's policeman, rather than the world's policeman.

Why must we be the policeman for anyone but ourselves. Dont mexico and canada have their own police force?




Zonie63 -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/20/2014 7:35:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Well, the only initiative would be to announce to the world that they should no longer consider America to be the "arsenal of democracy" and perhaps make proposals for a regional power system. Better for us if we're only North America's policeman, rather than the world's policeman.

Why must we be the policeman for anyone but ourselves. Dont mexico and canada have their own police force?


Of course, but I was mainly referring to a regional power bloc.




thompsonx -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/20/2014 8:05:40 AM)

Ah another day another ignorant thompsonx quote.

I actually do support the presidents use of drones, generally. I have never supported the expansion of the Patriot act and my opposition to it is consistent and predates Obama.

The question however isn't whether I support them or not. The question is - what are Obama's foreign policy successes.
Hell, I doubt you can even enumerate a coherent policy.

You can't say its to renounce war as a tool of statecraft - we attacked Libya - and he wanted to attack Syria.
Cooperation with the Russians / Chinese? Hmm.. doesn't look it.

Obama has no foreign policy goals - thereby he is only reacting to events.


Should you ever discover what my opinon of the presidents policies are then you will understand the mindnumbing stupidity of your post.




Zonie63 -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/20/2014 10:32:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Here are some specific proposals that could form the basis of a new US foreign policy. This list is neither exclusive nor exhaustive. There are many other principles and policies that could be included in a saner and more successful US foreign policy:

1. The underlying principles of US foreign policy to be Peace, Reciprocity (treating all countires the way the US would like to be treated by all), Promotion of Human Rights and Constructive Engagement with all countries that share this approach;


Agreed. These ideas already have precedence in America's foreign policy, similar to Wilson's Fourteen Points, the Kellogg-Briand Pact, and the UN Charter and Declarations on Human Rights. It obviously hasn't been followed consistently, but at least on paper, I don't see how any US ideologue could seriously oppose it.

quote:


2. Security and Military Alliances, Favourable Trading Status etc. offered only to countries that practice democracy, the rule of law, observe and respect human rights ie share the same principles set out in 1. Armaments sales to be restricted to same;


This is tricky, as these kinds of proposals get the usual opposition from interventionists, corporations which outsource, or anyone who ostensibly benefits from our current relationships with countries like Saudi Arabia or China (which do not practice democracy or respect human rights). This is why I usually chuckle whenever certain hawkish interventionists decry various dovish proposals as "weak," "wimpy," or "cowardly" (or even worse, "unpatriotic" and "un-American"), while they have neither the scruples nor the backbone to make any kind of principled stand for human rights.

quote:


3. Recognition that the best long term basis for world peace is freedom and prosperity, that it is in the US's and world's best interests for all countries to prosper economically. The US to adopt strategic postures and trading policies that incorporate this view.


I agree, although this is clearly the greatest challenge we face, since we're quite a long way from world-wide prosperity. Considering the kind of greedy tightwads we have among America's elite, they howl and bitterly complain about sharing a bit of prosperity with even their own people. I sometimes wonder if they even want a free and prosperous America, let alone a free and prosperous world.

Other concerns such as global warming and other environmental matters could create problems and barriers to global prosperity. A potential world-wide scramble and fight over dwindling resources could be in our future. In order to achieve world prosperity and a better standard of living, it will require greater infrastructure, industry, a reliable food distribution system, more railroads, trucks, cars, with all or most of the housing with fixed plumbing, electricity, heat, air conditioning, etc. This will have an environmental impact and could also increase global warming, as well as accelerate the consumption of resources.

So, it's probably the greatest challenge we face, as a world. I'm not saying it's not a worthwhile challenge, and I think that humanity's most brilliant minds could likely get together and figure it all out, provided that they're given the freedom to do so.

quote:


4. Disavow the notion of unilateral policing/military action in favour of Multilateralism. Consign the role of world policeman to the UN. Except for 3 above, any overseas military engagements only through the UN;


Agreed, although about the UN, some reform might be needed within that organization as well. One thing that might be tried is increasing the size of the Security Council and the number of nations with a permanent veto. Another possibility is to make it an elected body.

quote:


5. Abandon the notion of US exceptionalism, that it has a unique role or status in the world. The US is special in many respects but in the final analysis it is but one nation among the c200 nations in today's world. Instead, promote the universal adoption of these principles to ensure long term peace prosperity and mutual respect between all nations.


My complaint about U.S. exceptionalism is that it has the effect of saddling America with various "obligations" and "commitments" which we don't really need and which have no logical or practical benefit for America's defense or well-being.

Some war hawks and interventionists worry about the U.S. appearing "weak," and seem to imply that our role in the world is somehow indispensable, that "if we don't do it, nobody will." This may be related to U.S. exceptionalism, but it also seems to reveal that they can't properly gauge how America is perceived by the outside world.

About 30 years ago, I saw a speech given by G. Gordon Liddy, in which he mostly discussed foreign policy. He opened by informing the audience that the outside world is not a nice and comfortable place like America. It's not like Beverly Hills or Palm Springs, but he said that the rest of the world was like the South Bronx. He seemed to be painting with a broad brush, but his implied conclusion was that much of the rest of the world was quite dangerous, ostensibly run by thugs, criminals, and other evil people who spend every waking moment plotting to destroy America and all that we stand for. His general message was that the only way for America to survive was to build up our military and flex our muscle. It's the idea that we can't show weakness and that "force is the only language our enemies understand."

I won't deny that America has always had a certain xenophobic taint to our foreign policy, particularly in the past when we were more neutral in our approach to world affairs. However, we seem to have turned that xenophobia into a form of demonization of selected factions/governments in the world, making them appear as "evil" in the eyes of Americans. That's the whole problem, because in theory, everyone claims to want peace. But as long as the perception that there's all this "evil" in the world that "America must stop," then U.S. foreign policy may be stuck on this course.

I think that we really need to take a more realistic and rational look at the outside world. I think Americans need to keep up and informed on world events and try to understand the history, background, and cultures of the various nations and regions we deal with. I'm not saying that the world is full of angels, and we might have to take a necessary guarded approach with some nations and governments. After all, these are politicians we're dealing with here.




Politesub53 -> RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy (5/20/2014 4:36:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Yes dopey bollocks, despite voting Conservative most of my life, I am a liberal. Why ? because I dont agree with your fuckwit opinions.

Lets just reming you that calling the President the N word is indeed racist to most normal thinking people. What say you ?




You're being recognized by the dick you choose to suck, Polite.

This thread has nothing to do with the racist old fuck who has now resigned. You'll find that one titled with a reference to free speech. It came up here because a shitbag who cannot defend the President's failures decided to throw a slur, and you chimed in to put his balls in your mouth.

Choke on them.


Except both you and I know there have been many racist posts regards President Obama. It would be hard to find the ones on those posts or threads that have been pulled. I am sure those without selective memories will know what I mean. Lets not forget many on here insist the "Ding dong Trayvon" song isnt racist, nor the clown with the Presidents face on it.

Your "being recognised by the dick you choose to suck" comment works on many levels, for you, as well as me.




Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625