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Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 6:13:27 AM   
Phydeaux


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Following article is lengthy, but it details how and why US foreign policy has failed in the last 8 years.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/hes-made-it-worse-obamas-middle-east/
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RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 6:20:47 AM   
Phydeaux


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In the same vein, the following article is a pretty good discussion of ISIS.

http://warontherocks.com/2014/05/state-of-jihad-the-reality-of-the-islamic-state-in-iraq-and-syria/

Bush formulated his foreign policy on the idea that if a country could not control its territory and prevent the formation and operation of groups inimicable to the united states, that the US reserved the right to do so.

Obviously this was an over-reach. But the formation of NG actors was an issue, and the chance of them becoming state actors an ever present danger.

As a third aside, the same sources say that 2000 European muslims are in syria fighting - which represents a huge security issue.

2000 jihadi's .. making connections, gaining terror experience.. and with western passports...

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 6:27:19 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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We get it, you hate the brown guy in the White House.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 6:38:58 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

We get it, you hate the brown guy in the White House.


We get it. The racism card is your defense to every documented instance of malfeasance, corruption and incompetence.

Miserable ACA rollout - racism.
Caught spying on european leaders - racism.
Surrender the internet - racism.
Vets dying to make the numbers - racism.
Delaying the radar station in poland - making the poles develop their own technology, proving how unreliable the us is; depriving us of money and jobs. Oh yeah.. racism.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 7:17:29 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Following article is lengthy, but it details how and why US foreign policy has failed in the last 8 years.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/hes-made-it-worse-obamas-middle-east/



I approached this linked article with an open mind. Silly me.

It is a partisan, factually incorrect polemic, not an analysis of US foreign policy. In other words, right wing trash.

I have had similar reactions to every "serious" link you have recommended. I won't be bothering taking any more of your links seriously.

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RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 7:20:47 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Following article is lengthy, but it details how and why US foreign policy has failed in the last 8 years.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/hes-made-it-worse-obamas-middle-east/



I approached this linked article with an open mind. Silly me.

It is a partisan, factually incorrect polemic, not an analysis of US foreign policy. In other words, right wing trash.

I have had similar reactions to every "serious" link you have recommended. I won't be bothering taking any more of your links seriously.


Yep. Can't seriously even argue the facts - dismiss the messenger.
Might work in many elections - won't work this year. The fact that left wing news sources are commenting on how bad obama's foreign policy has been (nee New York Times) shows just how bad the situation has gotten...

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 5/22/2014 7:22:47 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 7:38:32 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Following article is lengthy, but it details how and why US foreign policy has failed in the last 8 years.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/hes-made-it-worse-obamas-middle-east/



I approached this linked article with an open mind. Silly me.

It is a partisan, factually incorrect polemic, not an analysis of US foreign policy. In other words, right wing trash.

I have had similar reactions to every "serious" link you have recommended. I won't be bothering taking any more of your links seriously.


Yep. Can't seriously even argue the facts - dismiss the messenger.
Might work in many elections - won't work this year. The fact that left wing news sources are commenting on how bad obama's foreign policy has been (nee New York Times) shows just how bad the situation has gotten...

Do you know what "factually incorrect" means? Please look it up if it is beyond your current comprehension.

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RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 7:43:52 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Following article is lengthy, but it details how and why US foreign policy has failed in the last 8 years.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/hes-made-it-worse-obamas-middle-east/

I approached this linked article with an open mind. Silly me.
It is a partisan, factually incorrect polemic, not an analysis of US foreign policy. In other words, right wing trash.
I have had similar reactions to every "serious" link you have recommended. I won't be bothering taking any more of your links seriously.

Yep. Can't seriously even argue the facts - dismiss the messenger.
Might work in many elections - won't work this year. The fact that left wing news sources are commenting on how bad obama's foreign policy has been (nee New York Times) shows just how bad the situation has gotten...

Do you know what "factually incorrect" means? Please look it up if it is beyond your current comprehension.


That's not arguing them, though, Tweaks. That's just saying he's wrong without showing any reasoning as to why. I'm not saying he's right and you're wrong, but simply saying that the facts presented in the article are wrong isn't really a valid argument.


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(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 7:49:32 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Following article is lengthy, but it details how and why US foreign policy has failed in the last 8 years.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/hes-made-it-worse-obamas-middle-east/

I approached this linked article with an open mind. Silly me.
It is a partisan, factually incorrect polemic, not an analysis of US foreign policy. In other words, right wing trash.
I have had similar reactions to every "serious" link you have recommended. I won't be bothering taking any more of your links seriously.

Yep. Can't seriously even argue the facts - dismiss the messenger.
Might work in many elections - won't work this year. The fact that left wing news sources are commenting on how bad obama's foreign policy has been (nee New York Times) shows just how bad the situation has gotten...

Do you know what "factually incorrect" means? Please look it up if it is beyond your current comprehension.


That's not arguing them, though, Tweaks. That's just saying he's wrong without showing any reasoning as to why. I'm not saying he's right and you're wrong, but simply saying that the facts presented in the article are wrong isn't really a valid argument.


I am not going to grace the trash Phydeaux presented with an argument. I posted my reaction to the article. I thought it trash for the reason I stated. I could list the multiple factual errors but that would be granting the trash far more credibility than it deserves. That's really all I have to say on the issue.

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RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 7:53:01 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

We get it, you hate the brown guy in the White House.

The majority of Americans get it, you can't handle the truth about the mulato guy in the White House so you call the messenger thereof a racist.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 7:55:40 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
You're right OP, that is the most amazing piece of useless, factless asswipe I have laid eyes on. Meaningless frothing moronics.

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Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 7:57:20 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

We get it, you hate the brown guy in the White House.


We get it. The racism card is your defense to every documented instance of malfeasance, corruption and incompetence.

Miserable ACA rollout - racism.
Caught spying on european leaders - racism.
Surrender the internet - racism.
Vets dying to make the numbers - racism.
Delaying the radar station in poland - making the poles develop their own technology, proving how unreliable the us is; depriving us of money and jobs. Oh yeah.. racism.



Mentioning that in 2008 the Democratic Party of Hawaii, Obama's own party in his own claimed birth State, intentionally did not certify him as eligible to serve as POTUS "under provisions of the United States Constitution" as required by Hawaii election law -- racist birther.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 8:03:04 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Following article is lengthy, but it details how and why US foreign policy has failed in the last 8 years.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/hes-made-it-worse-obamas-middle-east/

I approached this linked article with an open mind. Silly me.
It is a partisan, factually incorrect polemic, not an analysis of US foreign policy. In other words, right wing trash.
I have had similar reactions to every "serious" link you have recommended. I won't be bothering taking any more of your links seriously.

Yep. Can't seriously even argue the facts - dismiss the messenger.
Might work in many elections - won't work this year. The fact that left wing news sources are commenting on how bad obama's foreign policy has been (nee New York Times) shows just how bad the situation has gotten...

Do you know what "factually incorrect" means? Please look it up if it is beyond your current comprehension.


That's not arguing them, though, Tweaks. That's just saying he's wrong without showing any reasoning as to why. I'm not saying he's right and you're wrong, but simply saying that the facts presented in the article are wrong isn't really a valid argument.


I am not going to grace the trash Phydeaux presented with an argument. I posted my reaction to the article. I thought it trash for the reason I stated. I could list the multiple factual errors but that would be granting the trash far more credibility than it deserves. That's really all I have to say on the issue.

Once again, rather than refute the message you disparage the messenger thereof. Trash, for the obvious reason.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 8:27:09 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Trash is trash, there is no message. All nutsackers caucus in the Minneapolis Airport bathroom stalls.

Now, don't disparage the message, embrace it as reason, anything else is shooting the messenger.


I can't believe after millions of facts contrary to the nutsacker nazi propaganda, you are still pushing all that birther asswpie.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 8:31:11 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
That's not arguing them, though, Tweaks. That's just saying he's wrong without showing any reasoning as to why.

The reasoning here being the factual inaccuracies in the op.


I'm not saying he's right and you're wrong,



True you are saying you have not read the op.



but simply saying that the facts presented in the article are wrong isn't really a valid argument.

Only in your zip code is truth not a valid arguement.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 8:37:38 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
The majority of Americans get it, you can't handle the truth about the mulato guy in the White House so you call the messenger thereof a racist.

That you would choose to use the word "mulato" to describe the president is most instructive. Is this a semantic maneuver to post bigotry in the guise of political corectness?
The majority of adolescent mongoloids would recognize the bigot behind the white sheet of politcal corectness.

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 8:39:12 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

Mentioning that in 2008 the Democratic Party of Hawaii, Obama's own party in his own claimed birth State, intentionally did not certify him as eligible to serve as POTUS "under provisions of the United States Constitution" as required by Hawaii election law -- racist birther.


Would you have a cite for that or are we going to have to take your word for it?

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 11:01:11 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

We get it, you hate the brown guy in the White House.


We get it. The racism card is your defense to every documented instance of malfeasance, corruption and incompetence.

Miserable ACA rollout - racism.
Caught spying on european leaders - racism.
Surrender the internet - racism.
Vets dying to make the numbers - racism.
Delaying the radar station in poland - making the poles develop their own technology, proving how unreliable the us is; depriving us of money and jobs. Oh yeah.. racism.





That's their whole method.

Like lawyers... When they neither have the facts or the law they scream bullshit. In this case it's spelled racist. Discussing with these people is of zero value.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 5/22/2014 11:02:22 AM >


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(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/22/2014 11:04:40 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Following article is lengthy, but it details how and why US foreign policy has failed in the last 8 years.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/hes-made-it-worse-obamas-middle-east/



I approached this linked article with an open mind. Silly me.

It is a partisan, factually incorrect polemic, not an analysis of US foreign policy. In other words, right wing trash.

I have had similar reactions to every "serious" link you have recommended. I won't be bothering taking any more of your links seriously.


Yep. Can't seriously even argue the facts - dismiss the messenger.
Might work in many elections - won't work this year. The fact that left wing news sources are commenting on how bad obama's foreign policy has been (nee New York Times) shows just how bad the situation has gotten...


It was an interesting article. Too much to really address on a point-by-point basis in a single post, although it's clear that the author was keen to point out possible mistakes made by the Obama Administration while ostensibly ignoring mistakes made by previous Administrations or other key figures in our government. The one-sided tone of the article seems to taint the information somewhat. I'm not really a fan of the Obama Administration myself, and maybe he has made mistakes, just as every President and every human being on Earth makes mistakes.

From the article:

quote:

It would be the height of unfairness to blame the Obama administration outright for everything that’s happened in the Middle East in the past five years. The region’s bad actors and cultural disorders are often well beyond the reach of the United States, regardless of who’s in office. But limitations are one thing—ineptitude another. It’s simply hard to find a single instance of President Obama responding to recent regional events in a way that has paid off either for the United States or its allies. At the same time, America’s antagonists—chiefly Iran and its enablers—have been emboldened and are now ascendant.

If this is what the Obama administration has gotten in return for a more humble American posture, then it’s time to drop that posture. Dangers like rolling civil wars, a near-nuclear Iran, a re-Talibanized Afghanistan, and a resurgent al-Qaeda will not vanish on their own. This administration has three years to reduce the damage that’s been done. The challenge is enormous, but, despite all these setbacks, the United States remains the strongest power in world history. And, as we’ve seen, a lot can happen in a short amount of time.


As far as Iran is concerned, there are a number of mistakes which were made by our government. We didn't really know that much about Iran back in 1943 when the Tehran Conference took place, although the British and the Russians had a longer history and a better working knowledge of the country than we had. The 1953 coup and installation of the Shah was clearly a mistake in the long run - and may not have even been necessary for U.S. interests. If we had done nothing back then - even if they had turned pro-Soviet (which was not a certainty) - our long-term relationship might still be better today if we had left them alone. Even when the Shah was overthrown in 1979, Iran did not become pro-Soviet, but most of their anger was directed at America for installing and supporting the Shah's dictatorship.

I was in high school when the Iranians took over our embassy in Tehran and held our people hostage. I think most people were pretty angry at Iran for what they were doing. It was on the news every night, and even the radio stations had a few song parodies calling for military action against Iran. There was a parody done to the tune of "My Sharona" called "Ayatollah." Then there was also "Bomb Iran" sung to the tune of "Barbara Ann." Kids at my school were saying that we should "nuke Iran 'til they glow." This coupled with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (leading to the US boycott of the Moscow Olympics), along with a failed rescue mission. Not a good time for the Carter Administration in an election year.

Worked out well for Reagan, though. I was never too sure about the allegations that his campaign may have secretly negotiated with the Iranians to keep the hostages until after he was inaugurated, although either way, he seemed content to let Iran and Iraq go to war with each other while aiding the Afghan rebels against the Soviets. He also seemed to be enormously worried about the grave threat posed by the tiny island of Grenada. Then there was the whole thing with the Contras in Nicaragua, which tied in with an arms for hostages arrangement in the Iran-Contra deal.

If the complaint here is about America's government showing weakness or indecision, then that may be an issue both major parties have to figure out in order to achieve a coherent and consistent policy for America to follow. There are political divisions and internal weaknesses within the system, and that's likely what other governments will be looking at.

As for the author's statement that "Dangers like rolling civil wars, a near-nuclear Iran, a re-Talibanized Afghanistan, and a resurgent al-Qaeda will not vanish on their own," we have to at least be honest enough to mention our own role and mistakes of the past which helped to contribute to many of these problems. Of course, it's not all America's fault either, since other countries have played significant roles in the region. But unlike political partisans and the US media, much of the rest of the world doesn't really have as short an attention-span. They remember things that the politicians, the media, and the electorate seem to have forgotten. We have a short collective memory, but they don't.

One thing we should also consider is that part of the original reason why we became involved in the Middle East to begin was because it was believed that the Soviets would take over the region if we didn't exert our influence and hegemony. Whether or not that was really true, now that the Cold War is over, the reason for US involvement seems irrelevant now. It also seems unlikely that any other power would even want to try to exert hegemony over a rather messy situation. The Russians have enough problems of their own right now, and the Chinese probably wouldn't even want to touch it. Since they're not in danger of invasion by either power, then US hegemony and influence seem irrelevant by that standard.

If, as the author suggests, America should feel the need to stabilize the region and face these dangers head-on, showing strength instead of weakness, that's a more hawkish, interventionist position that should be weighed carefully. The author says that Obama has three years to "reduce the damage" and calls it an "enormous challenge." No doubt it's an enormous challenge, but there are some serious problems that have to be considered from America's point of view. Even if we are the strongest power in world history (which might be debatable, but some other time), we also have to consider certain political realities, such as whether we have enough strength, resources, and the national will to continue exerting whatever force is necessary in such a hurly-burly of internecine rivalries, sectarian conflicts, and multiple factions hellbent on destroying each other. How far is this country prepared to go if things get out of hand? What are we prepared to do?

I don't see anything wrong with the U.S. slowly extricating itself from the situation in the Middle East. The problems clearly affect the region and the countries around it more than the U.S. We're on the other side of the planet. If the countries closer to that region don't seem to care all that much about what happens (including Russia and China, which have both had recent problems with Muslim terrorists), it seems geopolitically incoherent and illogical that the U.S. would be so fired up and concerned about it all. There are other sources of oil in the world; we don't need their oil that badly.

On the other hand, even if there was truly a danger that had to be dealt with in the Middle East, as mentioned by the author (Taliban, Al Qaeda, Syria, Iran, etc.), then what kind of solutions can be reached?

I see what the author is advocating here. He's saying that Obama should use America's strength to continue to keep these "dangers" in check and maintain America's hegemony over the region. That's what "reducing the damage" seems to mean here. But which "damage" are we talking about? The damage to America or the damage to the Middle East? And when we speak of the Middle East, are we talking about a region that belongs to us, or the people who actually live there?


(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Amazing Article on the US Foreign Policy Failures - 5/23/2014 2:06:20 AM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: RacerJim

Mentioning that in 2008 the Democratic Party of Hawaii, Obama's own party in his own claimed birth State, intentionally did not certify him as eligible to serve as POTUS "under provisions of the United States Constitution" as required by Hawaii election law -- racist birther.


Would you have a cite for that or are we going to have to take your word for it?



I'm guessing that this is his source.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37528165/2000-2004-2008-Democratic-Party-of-Hawaii-Certifications-of-Nomination-for-Presidential-Candidates

Read the documents very carefully. The Democratic Party of the State of Hawaii endorsed John Kerry in 2004 and Al Gore in 2000, along with their two running mates, as being elegable to be President/Vice President according to the United States Constitution.

However, the endorsement for the Obama/Biden ticket is worded differently in 2008. The Democratic Party of the State of Hawaii only endorsed the Obama/Biden ticket as being recognized as candidates by the rules of the National Democratic Convention.

All three forms are signed by different people. That's to be expected since Presidential nominations are only made every 4 years. The most likely reason for the discrepency would be that the folks in 2008 just didn't know the correct language to make their formal declaration and were unaware that there should be a declaration of elegibility under the Constitution. I doubt anyone actually checked it when it was filed.

I'm pretty sure that's what happened since the DNC apparently didn't bother to look at it when they responded to the FIFO request. Here is their response letter along with the document.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/52582735/Hawaii-Response

If you read the DNC response, you'll see that they explain the basic rules governing how they decide on their candidates, then go on to say that they have certified Obamas candidacy is Constitutional. They didn't bother to explain why they changed the language to remove the reference to Constitutional elegibility from the document. I would hazard a guess that they just pulled the it out of a filing cabinet, Xeroxed it and stuffed it in an envelope with the letter...

-SD-






< Message edited by SadistDave -- 5/23/2014 2:08:23 AM >


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To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

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