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"Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/11/2014 8:50:29 AM   
tweakabelle


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A audit of public debt in France has found up to 62% of public debt to be illegitimate.

The audit also found that far from its proclaimed goals of freeing up private enterprise to create jobs, austerity measures have failed consistently to achieve this goal. OTOH the audit found that debt is being used increasingly as a tool for enrichment by the elites, and impoverishing average taxpaying people.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/french-public-debt-audit-illegitimate-working-class-internationalim

Is it time for the 99% everywhere to take radical steps to throw off the crippling burden of public debt and reshape economic policy to suit the interests of the 99%, not the 1%?

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/11/2014 9:23:49 AM   
MrRodgers


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We need a return to the taxation of the 1% and in fact maybe the 3% as they were in the past and also the corporation. That will not effect job creation as that comes from the risk takers found in the middle 20-40%.

This would be temporary but likely necessary for at least a generation. Yes, spending must be cut but govt. spending is a profit center as much or more than any remedial effort against those now found on poverty.

It may also cause a need for tariffs which of course would prompt an economic war our politicians are far to coward to pursue.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 6/11/2014 9:24:10 AM >

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/11/2014 9:29:28 AM   
FelineRanger


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How are we supposed to do that when we're too scared of losing the little bit of food, clothing, and shelter that we do have? Further, even when you try to stand up for yourself individually or as a group, the staggering loss of Constitutional rights in the U.S. and the militarized thugs that masquerade as a police force will simply run roughshod over you and you will have no recourse. Short of armed revolution in numbers overwhelming even to the police and Department of Defense combined, how do you propose we throw off the rule by the 1%?

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/11/2014 1:01:09 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger
How are we supposed to do that when we're too scared of losing the little bit of food, clothing, and shelter that we do have? Further, even when you try to stand up for yourself individually or as a group, the staggering loss of Constitutional rights in the U.S. and the militarized thugs that masquerade as a police force will simply run roughshod over you and you will have no recourse. Short of armed revolution in numbers overwhelming even to the police and Department of Defense combined, how do you propose we throw off the rule by the 1%?


We vote those whom make less then $80K/year and with a total net worth of over $500,000. That individual has to be able to stand up to the full wrath of the rich, whom will use any and all tools against that individual. So right from the start, it will take the citizens being forgiving of the individual not be 'perfect' in everyway. That individual would need many other individuals to help either full or part time getting elected and once in office, to help handle the numerous problems this nation currently faces. This person with other individuals, elected from across the nation, would need to reform campaigning for elected office. How much candidates can spend, who can spend, whether organizations must disclose their donor list, and eliminate corporations behaving as individuals during elections. After that, The courage and wiliness to meet and compromise on the inexhaustible list of problems this nation has now and in the future. From immigration, to energy. Handling those topics in the nation's eyes (i.e. a better definition to gun ownership/control), to lesser items on the nation's radar (i.e. improving NASA).

When common people care not what their government does, nor take steps to reform it in a civilized manner; they'll have no one to blame but themselves for all that is created.

Oh, and ban special interest groups from donating to elections campaigns!

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/11/2014 2:16:52 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

A audit of public debt in France has found up to 62% of public debt to be illegitimate.

The audit also found that far from its proclaimed goals of freeing up private enterprise to create jobs, austerity measures have failed consistently to achieve this goal. OTOH the audit found that debt is being used increasingly as a tool for enrichment by the elites, and impoverishing average taxpaying people.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/french-public-debt-audit-illegitimate-working-class-internationalim

Is it time for the 99% everywhere to take radical steps to throw off the crippling burden of public debt and reshape economic policy to suit the interests of the 99%, not the 1%?

maybe all the rich have simply moved out? after all, they brought in that 75% millionaire tax, didn't they? what do you think they should do now? Sounds like this whole thing about "illegitimate debt" is France putting out feelers on possibly defaulting..

"French Tax Soars Over 100%
Over 8,000 French households paid taxes topping 100% of their incomes, according to French Finance Ministry data. See Taxes on Some Wealthy French Top 100% of Income. You may scratch your head in disbelief. How is that possible?

Stateside, you might guess it was the alternative minimum tax. In France, it was a one-time 2011 levy on incomes for households with assets over 1.3 million euros ($1.67 million). 8,000 families paying 100% may seem a small number, but nearly 12,000 households paid more than 75%. The percentages sure do grate."


http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/05/21/french-tax-soars-over-100/

eta- imo anyone with any money in a bank in France should transfer it out to a safe country pronto.. could Cypress II be coming soon to France?... hmmmm...

< Message edited by tj444 -- 6/11/2014 2:23:52 PM >


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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/11/2014 2:37:09 PM   
DarkSteven


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The article is fascinating. Its definition of "illegitimate" seems to be that nobody knows who is owed the debt. I'm not sure how that invalidates the debt, or even what advantage is gained by not disclosing the owed-to party.

According to the article, in France, the economy got wrecked by the same tactic used in the US. Decrease in taxes by giving tax cuts to the wealthy in return for vague hopes of an economic boom that never happened. However, there are two big differences in France:

1. Public spending dropped. In the US, spending continued unabated, with debt picking up the slack that payment used to fill.
2. The French interest rates have jumped. In the US, they're stagnant.

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/11/2014 2:39:22 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

We need a return to the taxation of the 1% and in fact maybe the 3% as they were in the past and also the corporation. That will not effect job creation as that comes from the risk takers found in the middle 20-40%.

This would be temporary but likely necessary for at least a generation. Yes, spending must be cut but govt. spending is a profit center as much or more than any remedial effort against those now found on poverty.

It may also cause a need for tariffs which of course would prompt an economic war our politicians are far to coward to pursue.


What about taxes on those in the lower 60%?

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/11/2014 6:13:05 PM   
PeonForHer


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I read that article this morning, Tweak. By thunder, those Frenchies are a contrary lot. On the one hand, they vote for their nasty little National Front party in vast numbers; on the other, they come up with a searing critical analysis like this.

For me, on this matter, it's not 'the truth' that counts, it's the ability to win in the propaganda war. Here in the UK the 'debt and austerity' line has been pumped so hard and so loudly that it's taken root. Not even lefty intellectuals have put much energy into opposing it. One major problem is that when it comes to politics, people feel that their opinion has value, no matter how stupid that opinion might look to others. But economics is something that people tend to think is a science that's best left to 'the experts'. Most people consider themselves 'economics-illiterate'.

This is a very, very novel kind of radicalism. It'll be fascinating to see where it goes. To challenge the consensus we have here in Europe, it'll need to be kept simple and shouted, loudly and repeatedly.

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/12/2014 1:50:51 AM   
tweakabelle


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Yes it is a fascinating insight into how the money markets have imposed their ideology and austerity on reluctant populations. It's just another con to enrich the already rich at the expense of those who have little.

Here in Oz, the recently installed Right wing Govt has gotten just about the entire population offside with a savage 'austerity' Budget that attacked the most marginalised - pensioners, the disabled, single mothers .... - outraging the usually apathetic Aussie electorate. This is despite Oz being among the least indebted of all the Western democracies. In Melbourne today, some 40,000 were out on the streets, marching in protest at a Budget that is widely seen as grossly unfair and ideologically-, not economically-driven. This is huge by Aussie standards.

IIRC French Pres Hollande got elected on a platform of opposition to austerity (neo-liberal) economics. This audit gives Hollande the excuse to act in accordance with his mandate, if he has the political will. It will only take one significant country to break ranks for the floodgates to open.

I wonder who the first will be ........ There is widespread opposition to austerity economics through out Europe (according to the media I see here) especially in the South of Europe - Spain Italy Greece etc - whose populations are leading the opposition. Here's hoping one set of politicians somewhere has the courage to break ranks (or more likely is forced by their citizens to break ranks) and develop some people friendly economic policies.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/12/2014 1:58:11 AM >


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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/12/2014 2:07:50 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

and develop some people friendly economic policies.

I wonder what those might be. Seriously. From my perspective our working class has been battered by a combination of wage-killing events: unmanaged immigration, intense outsourcing of manufacturing jobs, and legislation against workers' unions. Combined with cheap borrowing money (negative interest rates) these factors have created a shift of wealth to corporations and foundations. Maybe Marx was right? Capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction. Or at the least the impoverishment of the working class.

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/12/2014 8:34:49 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I wonder what those might be. Seriously. From my perspective our working class has been battered by a combination of wage-killing events: unmanaged immigration, intense outsourcing of manufacturing jobs, and legislation against workers' unions. Combined with cheap borrowing money (negative interest rates) these factors have created a shift of wealth to corporations and foundations. Maybe Marx was right? Capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction. Or at the least the impoverishment of the working class.


We aren't experiencing capitalism, what we have are crony Capitalist buzzards and crony Marxist buzzards picking at the bones of the greatness of what true Capitalism formerly created

Unions arent at all Capitalists btw, & THEY sew the seeds of their own demise

(Detroit I hardly knew ye)

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/12/2014 10:25:48 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

and develop some people friendly economic policies.

I wonder what those might be. Seriously. From my perspective our working class has been battered by a combination of wage-killing events: unmanaged immigration, intense outsourcing of manufacturing jobs, and legislation against workers' unions. Combined with cheap borrowing money (negative interest rates) these factors have created a shift of wealth to corporations and foundations. Maybe Marx was right? Capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction. Or at the least the impoverishment of the working class.

I think the biggest problem is the infinite greed of the largest corporations & lack of enough competition (throw in price fixing and illegal tactics).. It wasn't that long ago that long distance phone calls were very expensive, basically the Telcos nailed ya to the wall cuz they could and did, in fact, they showed no mercy.. but now you don't need to pay anything to call anyone in North America..

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/13/2014 1:17:50 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

and develop some people friendly economic policies.

I wonder what those might be. Seriously. From my perspective our working class has been battered by a combination of wage-killing events: unmanaged immigration, intense outsourcing of manufacturing jobs, and legislation against workers' unions. Combined with cheap borrowing money (negative interest rates) these factors have created a shift of wealth to corporations and foundations. Maybe Marx was right? Capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction. Or at the least the impoverishment of the working class.


One of the major issues is that nations have surrendered control of their finances to the money markets. The audit makes the point that countries would have been much better off financing their debts through internal mechanisms (eg national savings) rather than pay the higher rates demanded by the money markets.

So it would appear to make sense for nations to regain control over their national finances for one thing.

A major revision of tax policy is also warranted. Especially so given the absolute failure of current policies that penalise the poor and allow wholesale evasion by the rich (despite their being favoured by lower taxes), to generate the promised jobs. So policies that penalise those using off shore tax havens and promote using the funds currently hidden in those havens productively would be another step forward. I have seen reports that assert the interest on funds held in off shore tax havens alone would be enough to wipe out world poverty.

So denying access to havens and using those funds hidden there productively deserve consideration.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/13/2014 1:20:09 AM >


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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/13/2014 7:05:03 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

A major revision of tax policy is also warranted. Especially so given the absolute failure of current policies that penalise the poor and allow wholesale evasion by the rich (despite their being favoured by lower taxes), to generate the promised jobs. So policies that penalise those using off shore tax havens and promote using the funds currently hidden in those havens productively would be another step forward. I have seen reports that assert the interest on funds held in off shore tax havens alone would be enough to wipe out world poverty.

So denying access to havens and using those funds hidden there productively deserve consideration.


hmmm.. all the rich need to do is move their residence to these "offshore tax havens" as most countries only tax based on residence (the US being a major exception as it taxes based on citizenship & residence).. that said, there are many countries like Ireland, etc that have attracted the rich & corps.. even the US has "tax haven states" where anyone can set up, not to mention the rich can set up trusts (mostly to avoid estate tax, which in the US is quite the hit)... Its sorta funny that the US is going after offshore Americans/financial accounts but yet it has these tax haven states within its borders that it turns a blind eye to..

but as far as offshore tax havens go, if the person/corp has paid tax on that money they have the right to keep it anywhere they want

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/13/2014 10:10:26 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

but as far as offshore tax havens go, if the person/corp has paid tax on that money they have the right to keep it anywhere they want

My goodness. There must be a reason why they are called 'offshore tax havens' Obviously, their purpose is to help US based citizens and corporations to avoid paying taxes.

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/13/2014 10:24:28 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

but as far as offshore tax havens go, if the person/corp has paid tax on that money they have the right to keep it anywhere they want

My goodness. There must be a reason why they are called 'offshore tax havens' Obviously, their purpose is to help US based citizens and corporations to avoid paying taxes.

I dunno.. maybe you should talk to Romney about that??? I know I would use an "offshore tax haven" once I no longer reside in the US but that's cuz I have always wanted to live in the Turks & Caicos (or one of the other "havens" down there).. not every person/corp that has money there has evaded taxes.. tax avoidance isn't illegal tho.. and if I want to put my after-tax money in a "haven" that would be my f'n business since I am not an American citizen (thank gawd!) so not subject to your Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act/FATCA.. and its not illegal for any US based citizens & corps to do so either as long as they report their non-US income/holdings to the IRS & pay whatever US tax on it.. Oddly enough, the large US corps can negotiate with the IRS on what tax rate they pay with those handy dandy confidential Advance Pricing Agreements..

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/13/2014 11:32:33 AM   
tj444


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oh yeah.. I forgot to mention Puerto Rico.. that's the hottest best "offshore tax haven" today for US citizens and again, perfectly legal, as its part of the US.. just sayin'..

"The Billionaire Tax Move That Could Be For You: Puerto Rico
Comment Now
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Last month, the billionaire hedge fund manager John Paulson called the island “the Singapore of the Caribbean.” He even briefly, it was reported, considered moving there. What’s so appealing that a lifelong New Yorker would ponder leaving the Manhattan skyline behind? Not the sunnier skies, probably, or the coquis, or even the snorkeling.

What Puerto Rico offers now is tax breaks that for entrepreneurs that add up to astonishing savings.

If you can creditably relocate yourself and much of your business, especially before you retire and your cash out of your company, you can potentially slice income, capital gains and dividend taxes.

Gabriel Hernandez, tax partner with BDO, an accounting firm with a 155-staff on the island, said the strategy tends to work well for service-based companies with markets outside Puerto Rico, especially those in finance and technology, and perhaps a dozen or so employees. He said he knows of about 200 people who have made the move MOVE +2.68% so far.

“If you are an IT developer, and you and some members of the team move here, a lot of that works well,” he said.

There are three places you’ll see tax breaks:

• On personal income. The income tax in Puerto Rico is only 4%. Compare that with the combined federal and state income tax burden that can reach 50-60% for successful entrepreneurs in places like New York and California, and you begin to see how powerful a move could be.

• On dividend income. There is no dividend tax at all, compared with a 15 or 20% tax on dividends in the mainland, depending on your tax bracket (people in the lowest two tax brackets pay no dividend tax on the mainland, either). That could be huge, if you are receiving distributions from your company’s profits, or have substantial investments from which you receive dividends — or if you plan to use those strategies as part of your retirement income.

• On capital gains. Again, no capital gains tax at all, compared with 20% in the mainland. So if you move to the island, jot down the value of any shares you own at the time. When later, you sell, you owe no tax on the gain in between.

Because Puerto Rico is part of the United States, you’d still be operating under all the legal and intellectual property protections that hold sway on the mainland, Herandez noted."


http://www.forbes.com/sites/elizabethmacbride/2014/05/23/the-billionaire-tax-move-that-could-be-for-you-puerto-rico/

< Message edited by tj444 -- 6/13/2014 11:33:40 AM >


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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/15/2014 5:44:10 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

We need a return to the taxation of the 1% and in fact maybe the 3% as they were in the past and also the corporation. That will not effect job creation as that comes from the risk takers found in the middle 20-40%.

This would be temporary but likely necessary for at least a generation. Yes, spending must be cut but govt. spending is a profit center as much or more than any remedial effort against those now found on poverty.

It may also cause a need for tariffs which of course would prompt an economic war our politicians are far to coward to pursue.


What about taxes on those in the lower 60%?

What about them ? Taxes as a whole in the US are at a 60 year low and I am with everybody that would cheer that occurrence but...spending which is a very bipartisan affair, is at...a 60 year high.

What has NOT been taxed nearly enough is the wealth factor. That is the actual ability of those to make millions, even billions in a fairly short term and billions in the mid term...with money. No jobs, no work...just trading paper.

As I've written and he is far from alone, Bloomberg had a net worth of $3.3 billion at or during his first term in one could say was more than a full time job. After 12 years as mayor of NY, he leaves office with a net worth of $33.3 billion dollars, which means...after taxes.

Even if that was Millions and not Billions, that kind of extraordinary accumulation and increase of wealth while not from being the swashbuckling entrepreneur and creating no jobs, taking little or no risk and simply through buying and selling stocks and bonds etc., and futures i.e., speculation...hasn't been taxed nearly enough.

George Will once wrote that after the spending on Vietnam, the oil embargo had subsided had brought in efficiencies that there was one place for govt to get the money for a fiscal reconciliation...the middle class. He many have been right then but not now/ It is in a large fashion and it won't fix our fiscal problems entirely...the top 5%...that's where the money is and an otherwise even tax code that treats all income the same..

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 6/15/2014 5:54:20 AM >

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/15/2014 6:01:29 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

but as far as offshore tax havens go, if the person/corp has paid tax on that money they have the right to keep it anywhere they want

My goodness. There must be a reason why they are called 'offshore tax havens' Obviously, their purpose is to help US based citizens and corporations to avoid paying taxes.

I dunno.. maybe you should talk to Romney about that??? I know I would use an "offshore tax haven" once I no longer reside in the US but that's cuz I have always wanted to live in the Turks & Caicos (or one of the other "havens" down there).. not every person/corp that has money there has evaded taxes.. tax avoidance isn't illegal tho.. and if I want to put my after-tax money in a "haven" that would be my f'n business since I am not an American citizen (thank gawd!) so not subject to your Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act/FATCA.. and its not illegal for any US based citizens & corps to do so either as long as they report their non-US income/holdings to the IRS & pay whatever US tax on it.. Oddly enough, the large US corps can negotiate with the IRS on what tax rate they pay with those handy dandy confidential Advance Pricing Agreements..

The whole concept of a 'tax haven' is to specifically avoid paying whatever US taxes may be due if brought into the US. There is a rather average smallish office bldg. in the Camen Islands that is 'home' to 1000's of corporations. They are 'home' there so as not...to be taxed.

First, from what I read FATCA is a reporting requirement and so far have found no specific tax liability yet.

If a jurisdiction enters into an Intergovernmental Agreement (IGA) to implement FATCA, the reporting and other compliance burdens on the financial institutions in the jurisdiction may be simplified. Such financial institutions will not be subject to withholding under FATCA.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 6/15/2014 6:09:23 AM >

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RE: "Most public debt is illegitimate" - 6/15/2014 7:22:10 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

but as far as offshore tax havens go, if the person/corp has paid tax on that money they have the right to keep it anywhere they want

My goodness. There must be a reason why they are called 'offshore tax havens' Obviously, their purpose is to help US based citizens and corporations to avoid paying taxes.

I dunno.. maybe you should talk to Romney about that??? I know I would use an "offshore tax haven" once I no longer reside in the US but that's cuz I have always wanted to live in the Turks & Caicos (or one of the other "havens" down there).. not every person/corp that has money there has evaded taxes.. tax avoidance isn't illegal tho.. and if I want to put my after-tax money in a "haven" that would be my f'n business since I am not an American citizen (thank gawd!) so not subject to your Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act/FATCA.. and its not illegal for any US based citizens & corps to do so either as long as they report their non-US income/holdings to the IRS & pay whatever US tax on it.. Oddly enough, the large US corps can negotiate with the IRS on what tax rate they pay with those handy dandy confidential Advance Pricing Agreements..

The whole concept of a 'tax haven' is to specifically avoid paying whatever US taxes may be due if brought into the US. There is a rather average smallish office bldg. in the Camen Islands that is 'home' to 1000's of corporations. They are 'home' there so as not...to be taxed.

First, from what I read FATCA is a reporting requirement and so far have found no specific tax liability yet.

If a jurisdiction enters into an Intergovernmental Agreement (IGA) to implement FATCA, the reporting and other compliance burdens on the financial institutions in the jurisdiction may be simplified. Such financial institutions will not be subject to withholding under FATCA.

Well, gee.. doesn't it follow that once the banks report back to the IRS that the IRS will be the one to enforce its taxation, if any? The US will withhold 30% if the financial institution refuses to report its American account holders (which is why some financial institutions refuse to accept any Americans as account holders). But just cuz someone has a corp in the caymans doesn't mean that the owners (that are American) don't report that to the IRS, assuming they are required to. Its simply an assumption that they all are evading tax, some don't and some do (just as many in the underground economy here in the US also evade taxes).. And a corp in the caymans doesn't mean that the US has any jurisdiction over them at all, since they are not incorporated in the US and with some countries ownership may not even be known (if the country still allows bearer shares or nominee shareholders)..

The supposed "concept of a tax haven" to avoid taxes primarily only applies to those countries that tax based on citizenship, which basically means only the US since that is the only industrialized country to do so and the only true escape for those suckers is to renounce their US citizenship.. all a Brit or Canadian or Frenchie has to do is move from those countries to avoid taxation by them.. easy peasy.. This is really just a one country war - the US..

And as I have already stated, the US has its own "tax havens" that they turn a blind eye to or simply cant do a damn thing about (Puerto Rico).. Why are you ignoring those? You as an individual have your own "tax havens" and they are called ROTHs, 401ks, IRAs, etc.. oh, and your home too (with its mortgage & other deductions).. Maybe the IRS should halt those as well? The argument that those are perfectly legal also applies to the corps in the caymans (which are perfectly legal)..

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