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RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 8:02:45 AM

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I wasn't making an accusation Popeye. I think probably the reference you made about the quote 'England and America are two countries separated by a common language' is coming into play here.

I generally agree that people all too often claim rights without considering their obligations, which is in general agreement with the OP with a proviso.

I'm also in agreement the separation of big business and state and believe that big business has obligations to the society that it operates in.

(in reply to popeye1250)

RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 8:08:14 AM

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I agree with them, even the God thing doesn't bother me, and I'm not religious. Why would it it's just money. I don't even look at it other than is it a 1,5,10,20,.01,.05, .10 etc... Who cares, they could print In Allah we trust on it, and it'd take me probably 5 years to even notice the change. If I were making the design would I put it there no, I'd probably put some naked women on it. LOL. Be thankful it's only a few words. It could be alot worse.

(in reply to MasterRenegade77)

RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 8:22:00 AM

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Meatcleaver, agreed!
There are some who say that the only obligation big business has is to it's stockholders and "the bottom line."
I think that any business that got it's start in this country and benefitted from our laws, protections and tax structure has an obligation of loyalty to this country just like an individual does.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 8:33:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

....I don't like Bush but I don't like Democrats either......

That's what happens when you pay attention.

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RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 9:46:31 AM

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quote:

I think that any business that got it's start in this country and benefited from our laws, protections and tax structure has an obligation of loyalty to this country just like an individual does.

Popeye,
Only when the country of origin doesn't amend the regulations, laws, and tax structure that spawned the company.

If you were to start a manufacturing business in the 1930's there were no environmental impact study needed before you broke ground for your plant. Currently you can not be fiduciary responsible to your company or your shareholders and open a steel plant in the US. You don't only have the current issues but you also have to consider a VERY long tail or liability exposure.

Just look at what happened to the Johns Manville company. One day they employ a city worth of workers the next day they are liquidating in Bankruptcy. An interesting corollary to their story is that the elimination of asbestos as an efficient insulator was contributory to the destruction of the World Trade Center towers. Half way into construction the asbestos issue broke and they didn't use it as a fire retardant insulation on the steel girders used.

I don't want this to get into the relative merit or the risk/reward issues relative to asbestos, nor do I deny it's contributing to cancer. But the next class action law suit, on the next version of asbestos is only one lawyer away. Why risk manufacturing anything in the US? We need and can support in raw materials 10 new oil refineries. Who in their right mind would propose building them? Where in the US could they get them built?

Which is why, at large, we are a paper pushing non producing society. We service, we thing of and create new product, but we can't afford to build it here. GM is failing because before they turn a bolt they've spent $3,500 per car on employee benefits. How can they compete as a manufacturer against companies manufacturing in Germany, Korea, Japan, and soon China, where those benefits are taken care of by the State? Before you jump on the socialized medicine bandwagon you should realize the US is not set up for it and the AMA and the ABA would not permit it anyway. But that's a thread unto itself.

(in reply to popeye1250)

RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 12:11:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcpiery

Kedikat: "Immigrants have in the past, and continue to break their backs to build and keep countries running. It's the ones who use them badly that make them a bad thing for many."

Perhaps we in the U.S., instead of deporting all of the Mexicans back to Mexico, should send them all to Canada. You guys can deal with the burden they put on School systems, Medical systems and all other public assistance systems.

As for the theft of a country, I do believe that Canada was not always a Crown colony. Someone was there ahead of you too. Most Inuits I've met don't seem to like the way they are being treated up their. Perhaps they are whining too much? Anyway, those who live in glass houses...

I wasn't specific as to saying US. Because I do know it happened here as well. And pretty much everywhere throughout history. I throw stones because I disagree with bashing immigrants. When you use the services of people and then bitch about them living in the same country, it's hypochrisy.

It's the labour and immigration laws that need enforcing and improving.

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RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 12:26:24 PM

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Im not bitching about "the being in the country". You know what Im bitching about?! If I drive with no friggin insurance I loose my licence and go to jail.
If a friggin illegal rear ends me or runs me over Im friggin scrwed for the rest of my life, cant collect jack shit or provide for my family, he doesnt even get jail time despite the fact that he has no licence or insurance.
I am an immigrantm, and I think that illegal immigrants are criminals.

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RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 1:25:50 PM

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While I am sure there are criminals amongst immigrants as there are in resident populations, to label all immigrants criminals just smacks of pull up the ladder I'm all right Jack. If a member of the host population caused you injury whilst uninsured you would have jack shit to look after your family.

To generalise call all illegal immigrants as criminals when all they are doing is the same as people have done for centuries is a nonsense. Many western societies wouldn't function without illegal immigrants. However, if we don't like immigrants from the third world invading our countries perhaps we in the first world should stop exploiting and oppressng the third world.

(in reply to Moloch)

RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 1:30:59 PM

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I don't consider them criminals. My grandparents were immigrants. All I wish for the immigrants to do is pull their fair share--pay taxes and give back to the system that is giving to them. I also hope they would learn to speak English. No offense, but when American jobs are replaced by those who won't contribute...it makes my blood boil. I literally have to take a deep breath at times and shake my head at the situation we've found ourselves in as a country these days.
Respectfully,
Irishbynature

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RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 1:54:13 PM

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Only a TINY fraction of illegals have car insurance, they DONT PAY INTO THE SYSTEM THEY COLLECT FROM. If you grew a garden of strawberries and your neighbor came in and ate half because he is "hungry" how would you feel?

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RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 1:58:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature

I don't consider them criminals. My grandparents were immigrants. All I wish for the immigrants to do is pull their fair share--pay taxes and give back to the system that is giving to them. I also hope they would learn to speak English. No offense, but when American jobs are replaced by those who won't contribute...it makes my blood boil. I literally have to take a deep breath at times and shake my head at the situation we've found ourselves in as a country these days.
Respectfully,
Irishbynature

A reason they don't all pay taxes, is because they are employed illegally by the native countries businesses. Often at illegally low wages and illegal working conditions. But the fact that they are doing this also saves you money by making cheaper goods and services. So the average person does get a financial benifit everyday from even the illegal immigrants. A free eneterprise capitalist might argue that this is actually a better method than giving the cash to the incompetent government. That is, when they are talking out the other side of their mouth. The very hard core capitalists dream is to have everyone working for slave wages in hell holes. All with no more rights than an illegal immigrant.

< Message edited by Kedikat -- 7/11/2006 2:01:06 PM >

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RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 2:04:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

Only a TINY fraction of illegals have car insurance, they DONT PAY INTO THE SYSTEM THEY COLLECT FROM. If you grew a garden of strawberries and your neighbor came in and ate half because he is "hungry" how would you feel?

Helk, I'd give um the strawberries

The question posed was to the effect "they were all criminals....etc". I believe in the idea of America being a country in which anyone can make a better life for themselves. Again, I stress..being in America also means being equal--being equal = pay your taxes, contribute to the system, and learn the language.
Respectfully,
Irishbynature

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What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller

(in reply to Moloch)

RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 2:07:14 PM

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I like to add ---as far as the analogy of car insurance...I've been hit twice by other drivers in 3 years. Neither of them were illegal immigrants...and neither of them had car insurance. So, I'm having trouble relating illegals and lack of car insurance (?)

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RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 2:07:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

Only a TINY fraction of illegals have car insurance, they DONT PAY INTO THE SYSTEM THEY COLLECT FROM. If you grew a garden of strawberries and your neighbor came in and ate half because he is "hungry" how would you feel?

Now tell me of the epidemic of road fatalities that have occurred because of illegal immigrants. I know there have been some and these are used like Goering stories of the Jews but what are the statistics? What is the body count, how many morgues are full of people killed by illegal immigrants?

Now tell me how many people have been killed by the host population driving illegally.

I understand that illegals have to drive because of a lack of public transport and that they can't register because they are illegal but they are also being exploited. There are mitigating circumstances because of the host population's willingness to exploit illegal labour.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/11/2006 2:11:30 PM >

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RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 2:10:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature
All I wish for the immigrants to do is pull their fair share--pay taxes and give back to the system that is giving to them. I also hope they would learn to speak English. No offense, but when American jobs are replaced by those who won't contribute...it makes my blood boil.

Every penny they spend here in the United States is subject to sales tax. They earn such low wages, they wouldn't pay any income tax, citizen or not. They also wouldn't be able to afford healthcare on the wages they are being paid.

I would bet for each and every illegal here, "not paying their fair share" you could find five citizens cheating on their income tax.

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 2:18:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature
All I wish for the immigrants to do is pull their fair share--pay taxes and give back to the system that is giving to them. I also hope they would learn to speak English. No offense, but when American jobs are replaced by those who won't contribute...it makes my blood boil.

Every penny they spend here in the United States is subject to sales tax. They earn such low wages, they wouldn't pay any income tax, citizen or not. They also wouldn't be able to afford healthcare on the wages they are being paid.

I would bet for each and every illegal here, "not paying their fair share" you could find five citizens cheating on their income tax.

Ahh, good point! I can only explain my experience with the tax situation. In the last state I resided, there were no state taxes and a 10% sales tax---imagine buying a house or car with those figures! In the state I currently reside, state taxes provide free health clinics, road maintance...yada, yada..However, our health clinics are falling apart, our schools need more funding for English as a Second Language, etc. Therefore, they get the benefits of health care here for free and education, and even some food assistance. I pay into this State system...why shouldn't they?
Respectfully,
irishbynature

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What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller

(in reply to caitlyn)

RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 2:42:39 PM

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They probably wouldn't pay in either way, because they probably wouldn't earn enough.

Everyone has healthcare in this country, even if they can't pay for it. It might be crappy healthcare, but if you have a serious problem and walk into a hospital, they have to take care of you.

General comment, not aimed specifically at you.

We will never address these issues, while waiving the flag and making points that are bullshit points. The question of illegals is very simple, provided you actually address the problem by answering the million-dollar question. Instead, we get sidetracked on what is, "legal" and, "who has insurance" and, "what language they speak when they are mowing you fucking lawn." That's all deflectionary bullshit. If we keep allowing it to sway us, we will never have answers to our problems.

So, the million-dollar question: Do you want to pay five bucks for an apple?

If the answer is yes, then keep at this "bash the illegals and blame them for the ill's of the world" crap, because sure as shootin', some far-right dumb-ass will win an election based on kicking them all out and building a wall, and you will get just what you want ... fruit that nobody can buy.

If the answer is no, then either give them citizenship, or live with the current system and STFU already.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 7/11/2006 2:44:25 PM >

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 3:14:52 PM

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Actually if you stop subsidizing your farmers and import your produce, say from Mexico, then there would be work for many Mexicans in Mexico and they won't bother crossing the border, you get your cheap produce and you save tax dollars by not paying unprofitable farmers money to produce and expensive product.

You wouldn't subsidize GM would you? Far better to buy Japanese for a superior product at a lower price.

The EU ought to do the same and give African farmers a decent break. There is no need to dilute standards.

(in reply to caitlyn)

RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 10:52:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

The people who originally were here to greet the white jobless immigrants didn't speak english. And those immigrants went about killing and pillaging the North Americans.

This country was stolen by immigrants. The original owners slaughtered and robbed.

It's you that never learned to speak the language. You are the foreigner. This bill of non rights is just whining about how the white immigrants couldn't even keep it together in the country they stole.

The bill of rights, the constitution, rules and regulations have made life easier for you. It's just been so easy that people have taken them for granted and not kept a firm hand on them.

Immigrants have in the past, and continue to break their backs to build and keep countries running. It's the ones who use them badly that make them a bad thing for many.

I have a t-shirt with a picture of Geronimo and 3 of his soldiers which reads.

HOMELAND SECURITY

Fighting Terrorism since 1492

Not sure there is much more to say about that.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

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(in reply to Kedikat)

RE: "Bill of NON Rights" - 7/11/2006 10:59:12 PM

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Personally it never ceases to amaze me when ANYONE tries to speak for me as an American. I do not want to see people fry in an electric chair, I want universal healthcare, meaning I am still paying in the form of taxes, children should always be fed, and I am educated enough to know that our Fore Fathers weren't all protestants. Lastly, this isn't an English speaking country, we were very close to having German as our official language at one time... But then again, that is part of that heritage thing we discussed that the person that wrote this nonbill of rights doesn't seem to know about

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(in reply to MasterRenegade77)

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