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RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 4:09:41 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


Just because you want them to be a crime here doesn't make it true.
Self defense is the most basic human right, just because you are proud of suppressing doesn't change that.


I always heard the most basic human right was the right to life... that by the way it is the right you protect with self defence.

So you agree with me.


No I said the opposite of what you were implying

I got that:) no english problem on your behalf there:) but he wont get it

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(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 7:03:00 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		To be fair I suspect this is quite the core of the cultural differences I was talking about. So I would understand if he sincerely thought I was making a point in his direction. The fact I was implying self defence is subordinate to the right to life (otherwise it would be void) meaning also the other person's right to life, is probably odd and aliene to him.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 8:02:51 AM   
quizzicalkitten


Posts: 312
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

To be fair I suspect this is quite the core of the cultural differences I was talking about. So I would understand if he sincerely thought I was making a point in his direction. The fact I was implying self defence is subordinate to the right to life (otherwise it would be void) meaning also the other person's right to life, is probably odd and aliene to him.


The right to life is just that my right to my life. If someone is endangering that and I have no way to come out of the situation alive unless I take a life then I will take a life ie self defense.

What you seem to not understand is killing in self defense for 99.9 percent of responsible gun owners is the last resort. Leaving, attempting to reason and using the gun as a threat happen first.

The fact is killing in self defense is rare. It doesn't happen often and regularly.

Take an example that happened in my area recently:

2 men start to break into a woman's home. She calls 911 in the area a level one emergency gets an average police response in 6 minutes.

Men break down the door and the woman levels her gun at them. They raise their hands unarmed and are held the remaining time that it takes for the cops to arrive. Once the robbers are booked they are linked to 6 other robberies 2 that ended in the rape of the homeowner and one in the murder one person.

This is self defense... If she hadn't defended herself she'd likely have been raped or killed.

Why do you hold the life of a criminal who intentionally put themselves in harms way by being a criminal to a higher right to life then an innocent person who did nothing but be in their home.

Two nights ago Google ignored my request to avoid getto and took me through a very rough area. I was on my motorcycle and had three choices at a red light as this man harassed me then threatened me with sexual assault I could stand my ground pull my weapon I could stand my ground not pull my weapon or I could run the red light and flee... I ran the light. Why because it was the most responsible choice.




< Message edited by quizzicalkitten -- 8/27/2014 8:05:24 AM >

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 9:49:34 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


Just because you want them to be a crime here doesn't make it true.
Self defense is the most basic human right, just because you are proud of suppressing doesn't change that.


I always heard the most basic human right was the right to life... that by the way it is the right you protect with self defence.

So you agree with me.


No I said the opposite of what you were implying

I knew what you meant, the right to life is tantamount so we must keep people from defending theirs.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 10:20:08 AM   
PeonForHer


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Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I knew what you meant, the right to life is tantamount so we must keep people from defending theirs.


The whole point is that there *is* no trade. There's no 'the life of X is worth more than the life of Y', therefore the 'the life of Y can be sacrificed for the life of X'.

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(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 10:42:24 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I knew what you meant, the right to life is tantamount so we must keep people from defending theirs.


The whole point is that there *is* no trade. There's no 'the life of X is worth more than the life of Y', therefore the 'the life of Y can be sacrificed for the life of X'.

When y decides that someone is going to die x has the right to see to it that it is not him.
You forget that if x takes your moral position and dies and y afterwards kills someone else the math becomes y or x and x if y is willing to kill once he will do it again.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 10:45:49 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I knew what you meant, the right to life is tantamount so we must keep people from defending theirs.


The whole point is that there *is* no trade. There's no 'the life of X is worth more than the life of Y', therefore the 'the life of Y can be sacrificed for the life of X'.

How can the product of such an advanced society cannot comprehend that the moral culpability for the violence rests on the assailant and so the cost for such action should rest there as well.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 10:50:48 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
How can the product of such an advanced society cannot comprehend that the moral culpability for the violence rests on the assailant and so the cost for such action should rest there as well.

Culpability and responsibility lies on both/all parties involved - not just the assailant.
So the cost for such action should rest upon the individual who performs the final act, not just the one that instigates it.


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George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 10:56:43 AM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
How can the product of such an advanced society cannot comprehend that the moral culpability for the violence rests on the assailant and so the cost for such action should rest there as well.

Culpability and responsibility lies on both/all parties involved - not just the assailant.
So the cost for such action should rest upon the individual who performs the final act, not just the one that instigates it.


Are you really stupid enough to say that if I shoot an intruder that is worse than him trying to to shoot me? Who dresses you in the morning cause that requires more brains than you showed with that statement.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 11:07:02 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		NO, he did not say that, you said that stupid shit. Seems to me intruders dont always have a gun.

Take the case in minnesota, the guy was convicted after putting them down, he gave them coup de grace finishes.

At that point the deal was murder.

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(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 11:10:10 AM   
AQRMZ


Posts: 147
Joined: 10/12/2013
Status: offline 		I usually make an attempt to remain courteous and polite,

BUT, in the case of any individuals defending the rights of the criminal, and especially those of you that are not citizens of the USA, then,

YES,

I said criminal,

IF he is in my house, on my property, in my car, on the public sidewalk, at the park, or in ____________________ you fuckin name it;

AND

he is threating my life or the life and safety of anyone in my presence, and I can manage it, he is one fuckin sorry ass.

AND

remember: big can hurt little, hard can injure soft, sharp can poke holes,

OK you get the idea, I ain't gonna spell it out for you any more.

Any of you fucking pro-criminal, anti-gun jerks have a problem with that, then just sit back and make a will.

Cause we all will just shake our heads when it happens to you.


NOW, having said all of the above, if I could I would de-escalate the problem as I have done in the past;

I have and would again and then things would settle down as they have before.

Cops would be called or the dude would just bug on out of the place.



OH AND THANK THE COSMOS FOR THE "HIDE" BUTTON ON HERE. SAVES A LOT OF SPACE ON THE PAGE AND DOESN'T WEAR OUT THE SCROLL BUTTON SO MUCH.




< Message edited by AQRMZ -- 8/27/2014 11:45:57 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 11:13:22 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Are you really stupid enough to say that if I shoot an intruder that is worse than him trying to to shoot me? Who dresses you in the morning cause that requires more brains than you showed with that statement.

No, I'm stupid enough to realize that if I shoot someone, I'm the responsible party no matter who started the fracas. Period.
Anywhere outside of the US is likely to face a minimum of a manslaughter charge and possibly murder.

But of course, in the US you can cop a plea of self defense or some stupid SYG defense and get away with it.
Anywhere else would require an immense and almost insurmountable rock-solid evidence from independent witnesses with statements signed in triplicate (and probably in blood) and all caught on CCTV for corroboration with a top-notch QC/lawyer to even get a defense plea of any sort at all.

Only in America....


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“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 11:25:54 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I knew what you meant, the right to life is tantamount so we must keep people from defending theirs.


The whole point is that there *is* no trade. There's no 'the life of X is worth more than the life of Y', therefore the 'the life of Y can be sacrificed for the life of X'.

When y decides that someone is going to die x has the right to see to it that it is not him.
You forget that if x takes your moral position and dies and y afterwards kills someone else the math becomes y or x and x if y is willing to kill once he will do it again.


I was stating how the principle is supposed to work, Bama. You are shooting the messenger, here (excuse the pun).

The corollary would be that X gets to defend himself against Y, but he doesn't get to kill Y in the process. He doesn't get to trade away Y's life for his own safety. Now, whether or not that principle can be made to work in practice is something else. It's hard principle to keep to, I know. But, as far as I can see, it remains a principle for most people, most of the time, even if they're not conscious of it. This is why people generally feel bad if they've killed someone - even if the person killed was intent on murder.


< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 8/27/2014 11:29:51 AM >

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(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 11:27:30 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Anywhere else would require an immense and almost insurmountable rock-solid evidence from independent witnesses with statements signed in triplicate (and probably in blood) and all caught on CCTV for corroboration with a top-notch QC/lawyer to even get a defense plea of any sort at all.

Only in America....

Well I don't know that it's only in America, but why would anyone anywhere want to make it next to impossible for a person to mount a defense?

K.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 11:31:29 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		I think no one is questioning that's self defence when someone is actually trying to shoot at you, but between "it's reasonable to think" and "without any doubt" is where the protection of the right of life comes in question. It also comes in question when you move from the "duty to retreat" to the "stand your ground" principles.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 11:31:33 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
How can the product of such an advanced society cannot comprehend that the moral culpability for the violence rests on the assailant and so the cost for such action should rest there as well.

Culpability and responsibility lies on both/all parties involved - not just the assailant.
So the cost for such action should rest upon the individual who performs the final act, not just the one that instigates it.


In your story about the steak knife the broomstick and your stepson how much time did you spend in jail. You committed the final act so the legal cost should have, according to you logic been on you.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 11:33:03 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		FR

Frigging hell, must this always come back to 'You're either on the defender's side, or you're on the attacker's side'? Does it take a grenade to blow a hole in the wall around that?

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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 11:37:20 AM   
AQRMZ


Posts: 147
Joined: 10/12/2013
Status: offline 		G fuckin C what is with you pee?

How in the fuckin hell can you ever be on an attackers side?

When it happens to you or to yours, then you can run and duck and hide and let the shit happen.

Tell us then, if of course you or your kids survive, what you think.

YEAH RIGHT.

< Message edited by AQRMZ -- 8/27/2014 11:43:59 AM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 11:40:39 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Anywhere else would require an immense and almost insurmountable rock-solid evidence from independent witnesses with statements signed in triplicate (and probably in blood) and all caught on CCTV for corroboration with a top-notch QC/lawyer to even get a defense plea of any sort at all.

Only in America....

Well I don't know that it's only in America, but why would anyone anywhere want to make it next to impossible for a person to mount a defense?

K.


Because that's usually the case for most incidents... If you shoot someone dead, it's pretty much automatically at least a manslaughter charge just because you killed someone and for no other reason than that.
In most cases, you'd be pretty hard-pushed to wriggle off such a charge without some really magnificent mitigating circumstances presented by a damned good lawyer to even file any sort of defense plea. It's one of those 'guilty until proven innocent' types of case because, quite simply, you killed someone... unless you can prove without doubt you didn't do it (the only reasonably acceptable defense), you're guilty of killing said person whether they were the assailant or the defendant.

A bit like if you run someone up the ass with your truck - you're guilty of causing the accident (and the damage) unless you can prove that they reversed into you when you were stationary.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: California's gun restrictions are working! - 8/27/2014 11:41:49 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I knew what you meant, the right to life is tantamount so we must keep people from defending theirs.


The whole point is that there *is* no trade. There's no 'the life of X is worth more than the life of Y', therefore the 'the life of Y can be sacrificed for the life of X'.

When y decides that someone is going to die x has the right to see to it that it is not him.
You forget that if x takes your moral position and dies and y afterwards kills someone else the math becomes y or x and x if y is willing to kill once he will do it again.


I was stating how the principle is supposed to work, Bama. You are shooting the messenger, here (excuse the pun).

The corollary would be that X gets to defend himself against Y, but he doesn't get to kill Y in the process. He doesn't get to trade away Y's life for his own safety. Now, whether or not that principle can be made to work in practice is something else. It's hard principle to keep to, I know. But, as far as I can see, it remains a principle for most people, most of the time, even if they're not conscious of it. This is why people generally feel bad if they've killed someone - even if the person killed was intent on murder.


You suffer from the delusion that most anti gun people do.
Shooting someone is the last line of defense.
If you think shooting to wound (arm leg and so on) you have seen to many movies.
As pointed out before I have been in FOUR situations where, according to your fantasy, I would have just started blasting away. You would be amazed how coming face to face with their own mortality changes a thugs view of the world. I haven't had to shoot any of them.
You simply refuse to take a realistic view of legitimate gun owners.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 200
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