RE: Ohio walmart shooting

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steelchip -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 3:56:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: steelchip quote: ORIGINAL: steelchip quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 FR for the off topic discussion ok there are air guns in the power range of .22lr round like this but are them sold at the toy department of walmart? I don't know how it works there, as it seems in some part of usa they give .22lr carabines to 5 year olds as birthday present, but I suppose those air guns sold in toy department are under the 7.5 joules limit. No the pellet rifles sold here are not sold as toys, for example Walmart has them in the sporting goods, (outdoor, camping, etc) section and carefully delineated from toys. They are kept in boxes near the firearms section. They even put the bb guns there. heres another one same store same day.. [image]local://upfiles/1459958/3577DDBB1BAC4DED9047011D950C834A.jpg[/image] [image]local://upfiles/1459958/B00098ECB9904E2EAD099FA09C8BACED.jpg[/image] You aren't the guy who made the 911 call are you, because from your description I expected to see something much different. wtf is wrong with you...seriously....if these guns look secured to you then you dont have the brains to own one..and the one in the video was obviously just laying loose on the shelf..but for some reason only known by you that you want to continue to argue...you are one of the most pathetic excuses of a human being ive had the displeasure of encountering on the net.......

BamaD -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 4:01:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: steelchip quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 FR for the off topic discussion ok there are air guns in the power range of .22lr round like this but are them sold at the toy department of walmart? I don't know how it works there, as it seems in some part of usa they give .22lr carabines to 5 year olds as birthday present, but I suppose those air guns sold in toy department are under the 7.5 joules limit. No the pellet rifles sold here are not sold as toys, for example Walmart has them in the sporting goods, (outdoor, camping, etc) section and carefully delineated from toys. They are kept in boxes near the firearms section. They even put the bb guns there. i took this picture in a walmart one week after the shooting I haven't told you what they do with them there. What your Walmart does has little bearing to what mine does. And all of them in your pictures each pellet rifle has a box, in fact none are just lying there without a box, so he should have had the box to carry it in. There were many mistakes made that day and someone paid a heavy toll for those mistakes. Yet, the person that paid that toll, made the greatest number and depth of those mistakes. We can sit here and argue the fine points; splitting hairs to our heart's content. The fact remains that events and mistakes drove events to the outcome that took place. In my state, there is a ban on ANYTHING that looks like a firearm in a 'brick and mortar' store; unless its an actual firearm dealer. And those dealers are VERY careful on who is allowed to touch the product. In other states, the practice is allowed. Maybe we should count ourselves lucky its taken this long to have this sort of incident play out due to not considering possible outcomes with bad or ineffective firearm coverage. Stuff like this has placed liability in Wal-Mart's hands. And who wouldn't want to sue a business that makes tens of billions in a year when you have the company dead to rights? Your whole post collapses on one point, Walmart is a firearms dealer.

crazyml -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 5:44:36 PM)
FR For fuck's sake. The person who pulled the trigger has to take the blame. Was it first degree murder? No. Was it a culpable homicide, fuck yes. I am completely at a loss that responsible gun owners aren't expecting the shooter to take responsibility. I cannot imagine that any responsible hunter would take a shot simply on the say so of a spotter. In the UK, if someone is engaged to cull deer (one of the few purposes for which a high velocity rifle license will be granted), they'll be told in some detail which animals they are to take. Typically they'll stalk with a spotter who will help to identify targets. If the spotter identifies a hind with calf, and the shooter shoots, guess whose fault it is? In Kosovo - a conflict where at times live rounds were popping, the green card made it absolutely clear - You identify the target, establish the threat and then you get to fire (after politely asking them to desist). It didn't matter a fuck if 14 locals assured you that the grinning moustachioed fucker standing on the balcony had just been sending rounds into a kiddies playground - If you didn't see him holding his weapon pointing it at the little'uns you were not allowed to shoot. It didn't help that the UN forces were so easily spotted, because it was absolutely fucking for sure that laughing boy had just popped his weapon behind the curtain, but that didn't matter - the green card ruled. This is basic, basic fucking stuff, and I cannot fathom why the people who know about firearms aren't making this point. Genuine question for the hunters... If you take out game that is out of season on the word of your spotter, who is responsible, you or the spotter?

BamaD -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 6:09:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml FR For fuck's sake. The person who pulled the trigger has to take the blame. Was it first degree murder? No. Was it a culpable homicide, fuck yes. I am completely at a loss that responsible gun owners aren't expecting the shooter to take responsibility. I cannot imagine that any responsible hunter would take a shot simply on the say so of a spotter. In the UK, if someone is engaged to cull deer (one of the few purposes for which a high velocity rifle license will be granted), they'll be told in some detail which animals they are to take. Typically they'll stalk with a spotter who will help to identify targets. If the spotter identifies a hind with calf, and the shooter shoots, guess whose fault it is? In Kosovo - a conflict where at times live rounds were popping, the green card made it absolutely clear - You identify the target, establish the threat and then you get to fire (after politely asking them to desist). It didn't matter a fuck if 14 locals assured you that the grinning moustachioed fucker standing on the balcony had just been sending rounds into a kiddies playground - If you didn't see him holding his weapon pointing it at the little'uns you were not allowed to shoot. It didn't help that the UN forces were so easily spotted, because it was absolutely fucking for sure that laughing boy had just popped his weapon behind the curtain, but that didn't matter - the green card ruled. This is basic, basic fucking stuff, and I cannot fathom why the people who know about firearms aren't making this point. Genuine question for the hunters... If you take out game that is out of season on the word of your spotter, who is responsible, you or the spotter? You do know that the spotters job is identifying the target don't you. Hunters don't use spotters, snipers do. You would think that such a knowledgeable person as yourself would know that.

crazyml -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 6:26:41 PM)
I do know what a spotters job is. I also know that the shooter has the responsibility to make the call. By and large, the spotter's job in practice seems to be to smoke endlessly and make lewd remarks about the local girls. I also note that you've completely missed my point. Let me make it simple for you. Imagine you're not allowed to shoot circles, you're only allowed to shoot triangles. Your pal shouts, "Hey! Triangle at 2!" You turn, aim, and fire. If it turns out to be a circle... whose fault is it?

BamaD -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 6:55:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml I do know what a spotters job is. I also know that the shooter has the responsibility to make the call. By and large, the spotter's job in practice seems to be to smoke endlessly and make lewd remarks about the local girls. I also note that you've completely missed my point. Let me make it simple for you. Imagine you're not allowed to shoot circles, you're only allowed to shoot triangles. Your pal shouts, "Hey! Triangle at 2!" You turn, aim, and fire. If it turns out to be a circle... whose fault is it? Let's male this simple. I fully understand your point. Like most gunaphobs you assume that failure to agree with you equals lack of comprehension. You go into a situation with a crazy person waving a loaded gun around aiming at children. How long a conversation do you have with said crazy person.

joether -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 7:37:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Your whole post collapses on one point, Walmart is a firearms dealer. You do understand there are Walmarts in Massachusetts, right? The ones here, do not sell firearms inside the stores. Not allowed. In other parts of the country, Walmarts can sell these arms. I think the legal team that helps the company would be up to date on the specifics of what can and can not be sold at a federal, state and local level. Walmart didn't secure its arms. That is its mistake. And that mistake could cost them in civil court. The whole of my post does not collapse upon this concept. Instead, your just ignoring what is politically inconvenient to your viewpoint.

joether -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 7:42:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml I do know what a spotters job is. I also know that the shooter has the responsibility to make the call. By and large, the spotter's job in practice seems to be to smoke endlessly and make lewd remarks about the local girls. I also note that you've completely missed my point. Let me make it simple for you. Imagine you're not allowed to shoot circles, you're only allowed to shoot triangles. Your pal shouts, "Hey! Triangle at 2!" You turn, aim, and fire. If it turns out to be a circle... whose fault is it? Let's male this simple. I fully understand your point. Like most gunaphobs you assume that failure to agree with you equals lack of comprehension. You go into a situation with a crazy person waving a loaded gun around aiming at children. How long a conversation do you have with said crazy person. How do you know they are crazy? Can you look at someone and give a full medical diagnosis (I.e. physical, mental, emotional) within five seconds? That is what your arguing the police should be able to perform. I hate to break it to you, but reality is very different.

Kirata -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 7:57:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml The person who pulled the trigger has to take the blame... When a person levels a gun at you and tells you to get down on the ground, he is giving you a choice: comply, or be shot. It's entirely up to you, and you alone are responsible for the choice you make. Crawford chose to make a run for it, earning him a Darwin Award and our thanks. K.

dcnovice -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 8:01:58 PM)
quote: our thanks For what?

Lucylastic -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 8:17:22 PM)
another innocent black guy dead????

Kirata -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 8:23:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic another innocent black guy dead???? Odd how many people seem to believe that the ugly shit in their head belongs to somebody else. K.

Lucylastic -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 8:32:24 PM)
lol yes, odd isnt it....

BamaD -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 9:55:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml I do know what a spotters job is. I also know that the shooter has the responsibility to make the call. By and large, the spotter's job in practice seems to be to smoke endlessly and make lewd remarks about the local girls. I also note that you've completely missed my point. Let me make it simple for you. Imagine you're not allowed to shoot circles, you're only allowed to shoot triangles. Your pal shouts, "Hey! Triangle at 2!" You turn, aim, and fire. If it turns out to be a circle... whose fault is it? Let's male this simple. I fully understand your point. Like most gunaphobs you assume that failure to agree with you equals lack of comprehension. You go into a situation with a crazy person waving a loaded gun around aiming at children. How long a conversation do you have with said crazy person. How do you know they are crazy? Can you look at someone and give a full medical diagnosis (I.e. physical, mental, emotional) within five seconds? That is what your arguing the police should be able to perform. I hate to break it to you, but reality is very different. From the 911 call you could come to no other conclusion. They couldn't know he hadn't been doing anything of the kind. I forgot that you live in the Peoples Republic of Mass. You forget that they do sell guns at Walmart in Ohio so all that crap about not being a gun dealer goes out the window. What you have there does not fly in the remaining portions of the US

Kirata -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/1/2014 10:15:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I forgot that you live in the Peoples Republic of Mass. [image]local://upfiles/235229/5AFFE1B0ED494E35895574DA0358DA06.jpg[/image] Image credit: http://www.engrish.com [:D] K.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/2/2014 1:49:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: steelchip wtf is wrong with you...seriously....if these guns look secured to you then you dont have the brains to own one..and the one in the video was obviously just laying loose on the shelf..but for some reason only known by you that you want to continue to argue...you are one of the most pathetic excuses of a human being ive had the displeasure of encountering on the net....... All your pictures showed was that one of each model was out of it's box. They were still sitting on a shelf with a bunch of others, all still in boxes. And one, even if it wasn't in it's box was still zip tied to the backing. This makes it seem that Crawford had a choice, one in a box, or one NOT in a box. Why would he have possibly thought that grabbing an unboxed "rifle" and wandering around the store with it was a good idea? Even if they weren't "secured" in some locked case, shouldn't an adult have been smart enough to realize what could happen if he walked around a store pointing a gun at things? It's a REALLY bad idea. It wasn't all that long ago that we had that couple go on a shooting rampage, in a Walmart.

crazyml -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/2/2014 2:10:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Let's male this simple. I fully understand your point. Like most gunaphobs you assume that failure to agree with you equals lack of comprehension. You go into a situation with a crazy person waving a loaded gun around aiming at children. How long a conversation do you have with said crazy person. No you really don't understand my point, and like most ignorant people you have a tendency to attribute positions to people that are simply not true. I'm not a gunaphobe at all. I am certainly not a mouth foamingly pro-gun advocate either, but I have more experience than most Europeans have with firearms. If the police officers did not see the victim waving the gun around, aiming it at children, and behaving in a crazy way then they are culpable. If you pull the trigger, you are responsible for the consequences. Just as if I shoot a hind with calf simply because someone tells me it's an elderly stag, I am to blame. I cannot believe that someone who so clearly believes in safety, and responsible gun ownership, handling and use would be so unwilling to accept the very basic principle that the person pulling the trigger is always ultimately responsible for the selection of the target and the decision to pull the trigger. Now if you maintain that you really do disagree with this position, that's fine we will just have to disagree on this point.

crazyml -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/2/2014 2:20:36 AM)
OK K, I was under the impression that there was no warning, if you're suggesting that there was a warning (and I'm more than happy to take your word for it) that does change things, but not to the point of exonerating the shooter completely. Yes, of course there's a common sense argument that if a police officer gives you a choice to comply or be shot the smart move is to comply. But, I don't think that a lack of compliance is justification in itself for shooting. The second amendment protects a citizen's right to bear arms but the fifth also protects their right to due process. And even if summary justice were ok, I'm not sure that evading arrest attracts the death penalty in any state of the US. If the lack of compliance caused the officers to reasonably believe that the person was going to pose a threat to them or others, then that would provide sufficient justification for me. If they were relying on the 911 report then, in my opinion they were deeply negligent in taking the action they did.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/2/2014 2:37:54 AM)
The problem I have with your position Crazyml is that it puts the police into a very untenable situation. Acting on the "facts" they'd been given, that a man was walking around a store with a potentially loaded weapon, aiming at people/children. The last thing said, as far as other people being nearby was that a child was "watching him from about an aisle length away" just before the police entered the building. In the video, the automatic doors open, the police yell at him from the end of the aisle, although exactly what they say isn't clear. (I'd guess it was something along the lines of drop the gun, get down, etc.) Crawford turns in the direction of the officers and they shoot. (The gun winds up on the floor pointing right at them as he's hit and drops it.) I'll admit, I'd probably have turned too. One second I'm on my phone, the next two men with guns are screaming at me. I can see this being confusing. So I'd probably have been shot also, except that I wouldn't have been walking around Walmart with a "gun" out. Going on that information, that there was a man with a loaded weapon and a nearby child, would you have waited? It's a tragic situation, but I really have trouble blaming the police when they thought they were protecting a child.

Gauge -> RE: Ohio walmart shooting (10/2/2014 8:49:45 AM)
This is a fast reply. The police were told by the caller that he was loading the weapon. There was no question at that point for the police to assume he was not going to use the weapon. He was pointing the "loaded" weapon at civilians, at least according to the caller, I did not see evidence of that in the video. Pointing a loaded weapon at random people in a public place now becomes a highly volatile situation for the police. As far as the police are concerned, that is all they know going in and they have no more information. How are the police expected to determine the intent of the person with the weapon, his mental condition, whether or not the gun fired bullets or BBs, in a few seconds. You simply cannot approach a potentially lethal situation (based on their information) any other way. You get the person to drop the weapon, and you arrest him... that is the best outcome, and let the psych doctors worry about the rest. He spins and begins to raise the weapon, which it appeared he did in the video, you have a few split seconds to make a judgment call. What the police did was not criminal. The 911 caller should be charged. That this shooting happened at all begins with Walmart and not having their guns secured, boxed, and the area heavily watched. This never should have happened in the first place.

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