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RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/29/2014 5:28:10 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
Of course Joe must lie, thats what progressives do first and foremost.

Do me a favor, please do not make sweeping generalizations like that. It is just like saying all conservatives are right wing nutjobs, it isn't true or accurate, there are some, but certainly not all.

But we are according to Joe and Ken and the loony left wing moonbats here. There is a difference between liberals and progressives, just like there's a difference between fiscal and social conservatives... But you'd never know that from 99.9% of the media in this country.


There are so many technical failures in this 'argument' its not funny....

I don't consider all the conservatives on this forum 'right wing nutjobs'....just you! Maybe Sanity and Kirata.

Second, define for me 'liberal' and 'progressive'. Well your at it, 'fiscal conservative' and 'social conservative'. You didn't seem to explain the difference between the two pairs or the whole against each other.

Finally, conservatives cry all day and night that their 'message' is not getting out to the American people. That the evil 'Liberalis Media' pushes an agenda that censors conservative thought and idea from the masses while brainwashing them with liberal/progressive bias reporting. Oh please, never heard of FOX News? The Drudge Report? Rush Limbaugh? Glenn Beck? Infowars? There exists quite a wide variety of conservative agenda and oriented 'news' sites out there for you to pick from. Funny how they all report conservatives/libertarians in the best possible light, while thrashing at Democrats and the President over petty issues, isn't it? All the conservative media sites were stating Mitt Romney was going to win the 2012 election 'By a Landslide'. Heck, I recall with a laugh when Karl Rove disbelieve Megan Kelly on Fox News that President Obama had won a second term. Enough for Miss Kelly to walk down to the 'eggheads' to confirm that they were 99.4% sure given the details known that Mr. Obama had won a second term. And conservatives/libertarians spent months trying to understand how all of this could have happened. They couldn't handle, like they cant handle now: the conservative media....LIES...on an hourly basis. Fortunately, sites like Media Matters, keeps the record straight.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/29/2014 5:33:02 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AQRMZ
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
If people put more energy into fixing problems rather than calling each other names we might actually get somewhere in this Country.


My sentiments exactly, reading lots of these posts are like watching people argue about which shoelace to tie first. TOTALY POINTLESS.

Where with the obvious intelligence available here some thoughts on solutions could be advocated.

I ran across a name several days ago, the man seems like a possible alternative to some of the inept and down right foolish men that have run for POTUS.
How about checking him out and try to leave the pissing out of it, that just indicates what a iggnuraant fule the pisser is. And we all know who they are.
we have serious problems in this country and this man I am suggesting to you could help solve them.

*SO BEFORE YOU DUMP ON THIS GUY BECAUSE HE IS DARK SKINNED, CHECK HIM OUT HE IS A FANTASTIC MAN.

HE IS NOT ANYTHING LIKE THE CRAP YOU SEE ALL OVER TV ABOUT WASH.DC AND THE FERG. STUFF.
LISTEN TO HIM TALK AND ENJOY THE DIFFERENCE.
HE WILL MAKE A GREAT POTUS. AND THINK ABOUT WHAT HE COULD DO FOR REAL HEALTH CARE.

Ben Carson
Benjamin /Solomon “Ben” Carson Sr. is an American author and retired neurosurgeon.He has earned the Presidential Medal of Freedom. And the Spingarn Medal 2006.

Born 9/18/1951 Detroit, Michigan. Education: southwestern High School – Yale University – University of Michigan Health System.

Married to Candy Carson 7/6/1975

Books ‘Gifted Hands’ The Ben Carson Story 1992, ‘One Nation: What We Can Do To Save America’s Future 2014

2014 CPAC Straw Poll Third place behind Cruz and Rand Paul.

http://www.runbenrun.org/petition check out this and see what you think.






What does this have to do with the topic? Are we talking about Mr. Carson? No....we are talking about Mr. West. I know they are both black, and you cant tell the difference between them. But assure you, these two men are very different from the other. This post of yours might be nice on a 'Ben Carson' thread, or a thread involving 'Ben Carson'.

BUT THIS IS NOT A THREAD RELATED IN ANY FORM OF BEN CARSON. Maybe you should try reading the OP to find out...WHICH...black person in politics we are talking about....

(in reply to AQRMZ)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/29/2014 7:19:50 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AQRMZ

I ran across a name several days ago, the man seems like a possible alternative to some of the inept and down right foolish men that have run for POTUS.
How about checking him out and try to leave the pissing out of it, that just indicates what a iggnuraant fule the pisser is. And we all know who they are.
we have serious problems in this country and this man I am suggesting to you could help solve them.

*SO BEFORE YOU DUMP ON THIS GUY BECAUSE HE IS DARK SKINNED, CHECK HIM OUT HE IS A FANTASTIC MAN.

HE IS NOT ANYTHING LIKE THE CRAP YOU SEE ALL OVER TV ABOUT WASH.DC AND THE FERG. STUFF.
LISTEN TO HIM TALK AND ENJOY THE DIFFERENCE.
HE WILL MAKE A GREAT POTUS. AND THINK ABOUT WHAT HE COULD DO FOR REAL HEALTH CARE.

Ben Carson



I am involved in a PAC that is attempting to "draft" Dr. Carson.

Yes, Muse, he has no experience. Of course, if he were elected, that wouldn't make him the first inexperienced POTUS we've ever had. To my mind, to a degree, not being a career politician is something of an advantage, in some areas. Career politicians are almost always beholden to some special interest group. We need a lot less of that.

Also, the name that has been floated as a test balloon for CoS is not a bad one, at all. The CoS has a lot more to do with decision making than VPOTUS.

I remember reading about the case that you posted from WWI and I remember saying then, as I say, now: I don't agree with a whole lot of restrictions on free speech and I believe the SCOTUS dropped the ball, on that decision. The rationalization they gave was just that; rationalization for a shit decision that they made as a "gift" to Wilson(?).

In the past, wartime has usually given birth to a rise in patriotism/jingoism. I don't think that's been true in this country since WWII and I despise the great destroyers who have made it their business to ensure that happened.







Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to AQRMZ)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/29/2014 8:14:57 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Well when the illegals came to Ellis Island and obviously wanted citizenship, they were sent right to and conscripted by the Army and soon thereafter right to France to kill or be killed in WWI.

Is this somehow different ?


If they arrived at Ellis Island to get citizenship then they were not illegals, they were immigrants and yes there is a big difference between the two. That said if someone is willing to serve for 4 years to get their citizenship I have no problems with that. As to Allen West, he sounds like an angry little man. I wouldn't take what he says to seriously.

Actually, you are correct but that does go to serve my point. At Ellis new arrivals were required to prove their identities, answer a series of questions, find a friend or relative who could vouch for them, and were scanned for physical ailments.

Where can anyone do that now ? Wouldn't it then be true that if they can't...are they then presumed to be 'illegals ?'

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/29/2014 8:27:29 PM   
Aylee


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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Let's start with what Mr. West posted on his Facebook:
quote:


Morning folks. While you were sleeping, Barack Hussein Obama took out his pen and ordered our Military to enlist illegal aliens. In other words, this charlatan has allowed those who have disrespected our Constitution and are not citizens to take an oath to support and defend the very document, our rule of law, of which they are in violation. Obama has no constitutional authority to make any laws or rules concerning naturalization as stated in Art I Sect 8 Clause 4. This is an illegal order and should not be followed by our Military. As well, we are pink-slipping men and women in uniform, Americans, and Obama wants to enlist illegals. We are already outsourcing our national security to Syrian Islamists. This is intolerable and just another reason why we must flip the Senate and begin to reverse Obama's tyranny. Any Democrat supporting this illegal order needs to be voted out!

And what is wrong with all of this you ask? Well, several things. The ones getting pink slipped is due to Congress's inability to get shit done in a timely manner. Funny how no conservatives are pissed at conservative lawmakers in office right now isn't it? Second, the law Mr. West is foolishly ignorant on was created in 2006. Which means two things. Either, A ) Mr. West is uninformed on the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) or B ) his conservative readers are total idiots that accept what he states without question or hesistation as truth/fact. And since it was on FOX News, it has to be true, right? Because FOX News would...NEVER....tell total lies to advance the GOP/TP base during an election year.....

My opinion is its option C: A combination of 'A' and 'B' options above.

Must you lie?


Where did I lie? Is Mr. Allen West not a real person? Did he not post the quote on facebook? The 'facts' of his 'arguments' his own?

Why you say 'you lie' it implies giving evidence to explain the lie. Also, a lie implies the person knows the truth of the subject matter. I never stated Mr. West lied. That he got his information wrong in making a political attack on the President should be noted. That I say FOX News lies is like saying water is made up of H2O. And that both are easy to prove with proper research.

It is amusing to see that your so conditioned to assume things based on little or no evidence to support your argument. Did you get your 'Low Information Voter' card updated yet?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Here is a link from the Military Times discussing the timeline of this expansion.

http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140925/NEWS05/309250074/DoD-policy-will-allow-some-immigrants-U-S-illegally-serve


You did, read this article right? The information is nearly the same as the one Media Matters has on its site. In fact, Media Matters is citing that source above. You would know that if you had...CHECKED THE INFORMATION...under 'noted'. You'll find the link in the 3rd sentence of the 3rd paragraph on the Media Matters site.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
But let's face it, you will probably attack this source as well.


Why should I? Again, you have an argument but you have no information to support the notion. Why would I attack a source of information that my source of information is not only using, but agreeing on? And that both sources show that Mr. West is not only wrong, but his supporters are too dumb to check reality and instead, accept a wild fantasy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
A small number of immigrants living in the U.S. illegally will have an opportunity to join the military for the first time in decades under a new Defense Department policy unveiled Thursday.


Where does it state in the Media Matters or the Military Times articles that 'illegal' aliens will be allowed to join the US Military and become citizens? Go ahead and cite the actual line in either article. Your going to find that 'illegal' in reference to 'becoming a US Citizen' comes up....ONCE...on the Media Matter site. You know where? You would if you ACTUALLY READ THE ARTICLE! Its something Mr. West states. And in the Military Times? Three times: A ) The articles name B ) The first sentence and C ) Under the 'Most Popular' section "DoD Policy will allow some immigrants in the U.S. illegally to serve" (which leads straight to the same article).

In other words, not only did you not bother to read either article, but assume a vast amount of stuff with no evidence. Your like one of those people at a football game that doesn't know the rules to the game, the players, the teams, or much history related to any of them. Your there to 'cheer' on the team your boyfriend/girlfriend/lover/spouse/friends are cheering on; and hoping no one notices. Anyone that questions you seriously will find your full of shit. Unlike a football game in which most are happy to have more people there; in a discussion group, there is an expectation to actually do some research. The amount of time spend researching this subject? About two minutes. Much of that taken up by loading speeds on your internet!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
For the first time, the program — known as Military Accessions Vital to National Interest, or MAVNI — will be open to immigrants without a proper visa if they came to the U.S. with their parents before age 16. More specifically, they must be approved under a 2012 Obama administration policy known as Deferred Action for Child Arrivals, or DACA.


You have no idea what all this means, right? The MAVNI is not being use to do an 'end run around the justice system' for someone that is not a US Citizen to gain US Citizenship. Its purpose is stated quite clearly. And that its been around since 2006. The 'illegal' part comes up with conservatives not understanding how our justice system works. Which is laughable since its been around longer than all of them! When someone is arrested for a crime, are they guilty at the time of arrest? To anyone that attended high school would know, the answer is 'no' (in fact you would have learned this back in the 4th grade). A person is only guilty of a crime if they are found so in a court of law by a judge or by a jury. You have heard of the US Constitution, right? A document that all other laws and such are based upon? So if an 'illegal' entered the US Military and performed to be given an honorable discharge, they can apply for citizenship. Why? You should really read the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals.

The difference between what I have and you is simple: I back up my arguments with FACTS, EVIDENCE, and legitimate SOURCES. You just have attitude problems. Just a typical conservative 'Low Information Voter'.....



Not only do you lie, you attribute to me, lines from the article.

DACA is 2012, btw, since you do not seem to understand that.

And how did I KNOW the Military Times was not a legitimate source. You are just. . . so. . . predictable.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/29/2014 8:29:28 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919), is a United States Supreme Court decision concerning enforcement of the Espionage Act of 1917 during World War I. A unanimous Supreme Court, in a famous opinion by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., concluded that defendants who distributed leaflets to draft-age men, urging resistance to induction, could be convicted of an attempt to obstruct the draft, a criminal offense. The First Amendment did not alter the well established law in cases where the attempt was made through expressions that would be protected in other circumstances. In this opinion, Holmes said that expressions which in the circumstances were intended to result in a crime, and posed a "clear and present danger" of succeeding, could be punished. The Court continued to follow this reasoning to uphold a series of convictions arising out of prosecutions during war time.

How is West essentially different from these others who were sent to prison?


There exist a number of differences:

A ) A hundred years of culture, new laws, new technology

B ) Being drafted and volunteering for service in the US Military are two very different concepts

C ) Mr. West has not be arrested, much less sentence by a judge/jury for his actions.

D ) What Mr. West is 'talking' about has nothing to do directly with the Espionage Act, since he believes he's more a patriot than the President.

E ) Is the level of anger and the chasm between both parties in 1917 as wide and deep as it is in 2014?

Each of these differences taken by themselves could be contested in arguments. Yet, all of them together provide a compelling argument to explaining just how different the two cases are from the other.


You are required under the UCMJ to disobey an illegal order.

Although. . . let me guess, the UCMJ is not a legitimate source either?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/29/2014 8:38:41 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
Some interesting notes about Media Matters, the organization which Joe claims is keeping things straight. That would make them "fair", right? Even if backed by the left, if they're TRUTHFUL, then that means they don't lie or distort.

from Daily Caller: http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/16/media-matters-targets-revealed-business-wealth-christianity/

from National Review: http://m.nationalreview.com/articles/222389/real-media-matters/byron-york

from the Spectator: http://spectator.org/articles/36028/media-matters-obamas-watergate

from JawaReport: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/199317.php

from NewsBusters: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2009/10/22/media-matters-wont-apologize-spreading-fake-limbaugh-slavery-quote

from Front Page Magazine: http://www.frontpagemag.com/2012/jlaksin/media-matters-exposed/

from Canada Free Press: http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/media-matters-lies-again-this-time-about-obama-intimidating-supreme-court

from Discover the Networks: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/mediamattersagendasandactivities.html

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 9/29/2014 8:46:56 PM >

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/30/2014 5:54:52 AM   
Moderator12


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Please don't take squabbles from other threads into new ones, especially when you've already been warned about them.

If this happens again, I will simply delete all your posts from this thread, without any further warning.

Thank you for being a part of collarchat.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/30/2014 6:29:24 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Aylee

You are required under the UCMJ to disobey an illegal order.

Since the pres. has the authority what illegal order needs disobeying?

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/30/2014 6:52:58 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Since no illegal order is extant, everything is copastetic there, and West should be jailed.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/30/2014 7:17:56 AM   
Moderator12


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As per my warning I have deleted a number of posts.

If you have any concerns at all, please feel free to contact Mod3.

Many thanks for your participation.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/30/2014 1:06:07 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moderator12

As per my warning I have deleted a number of posts.

If you have any concerns at all, please feel free to contact Mod3.

Many thanks for your participation.

For your edification This forums rules are different than the genral forums
quote:

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(in reply to Moderator12)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/30/2014 3:43:16 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: AQRMZ

I ran across a name several days ago, the man seems like a possible alternative to some of the inept and down right foolish men that have run for POTUS.
How about checking him out and try to leave the pissing out of it, that just indicates what a iggnuraant fule the pisser is. And we all know who they are.
we have serious problems in this country and this man I am suggesting to you could help solve them.

*SO BEFORE YOU DUMP ON THIS GUY BECAUSE HE IS DARK SKINNED, CHECK HIM OUT HE IS A FANTASTIC MAN.

HE IS NOT ANYTHING LIKE THE CRAP YOU SEE ALL OVER TV ABOUT WASH.DC AND THE FERG. STUFF.
LISTEN TO HIM TALK AND ENJOY THE DIFFERENCE.
HE WILL MAKE A GREAT POTUS. AND THINK ABOUT WHAT HE COULD DO FOR REAL HEALTH CARE.

Ben Carson



I am involved in a PAC that is attempting to "draft" Dr. Carson.

Yes, Muse, he has no experience. Of course, if he were elected, that wouldn't make him the first inexperienced POTUS we've ever had. To my mind, to a degree, not being a career politician is something of an advantage, in some areas. Career politicians are almost always beholden to some special interest group. We need a lot less of that.

Also, the name that has been floated as a test balloon for CoS is not a bad one, at all. The CoS has a lot more to do with decision making than VPOTUS.

I remember reading about the case that you posted from WWI and I remember saying then, as I say, now: I don't agree with a whole lot of restrictions on free speech and I believe the SCOTUS dropped the ball, on that decision. The rationalization they gave was just that; rationalization for a shit decision that they made as a "gift" to Wilson(?).

In the past, wartime has usually given birth to a rise in patriotism/jingoism. I don't think that's been true in this country since WWII and I despise the great destroyers who have made it their business to ensure that happened.







Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

It wasn't a gift to Wilson -- it was bowing to Socialist-phobia.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 9/30/2014 5:06:38 PM   
Moderator12


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Please refer to the following resources:

If a moderator is on a thread requesting that members temper themselves, we expect you to temper yourselves.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4713810

After a moderator warning or request to temper things, it is not helpful to continue. I have removed the posts...
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4713100

I will remind members not to... talk about moderation actions
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4686503


If at any point you're unhappy with any moderator's actions, you are warmly invited to take the matter up with Mod3.

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< Message edited by Moderator12 -- 9/30/2014 5:09:13 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 10/1/2014 3:28:55 AM   
SadistDave


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According to http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1324a the VAST majority of criminal immigrants are be eligible for federal service anyway. Consider that criminal immigrants mostly just disappear when they get into the country. These folks aren't big on documentation to begin with, and probably less than 5% will meet the qualifications even using fake documentation. Here are the requirements:



(7) Application to Federal Government
For purposes of this section, the term “entity” includes an entity in any branch of the Federal Government.

(b) Employment verification system
The requirements referred to in paragraphs (1)(B) and (3) of subsection (a) of this section are, in the case of a person or other entity hiring, recruiting, or referring an individual for employment in the United States, the requirements specified in the following three paragraphs:

(1) Attestation after examination of documentation
(A) In general
The person or entity must attest, under penalty of perjury and on a form designated or established by the Attorney General by regulation, that it has verified that the individual is not an unauthorized alien by examining—

(i) a document described in subparagraph (B), or

(ii) a document described in subparagraph (C) and a document described in subparagraph (D).

Such attestation may be manifested by either a hand-written or an electronic signature. A person or entity has complied with the requirement of this paragraph with respect to examination of a document if the document reasonably appears on its face to be genuine. If an individual provides a document or combination of documents that reasonably appears on its face to be genuine and that is sufficient to meet the requirements of the first sentence of this paragraph, nothing in this paragraph shall be construed as requiring the person or entity to solicit the production of any other document or as requiring the individual to produce such another document.

(B) Documents establishing both employment authorization and identity
A document described in this subparagraph is an individual’s—

(i) United States passport; [1]

(ii) resident alien card, alien registration card, or other document designated by the Attorney General, if the document—
(I) contains a photograph of the individual and such other personal identifying information relating to the individual as the Attorney General finds, by regulation, sufficient for purposes of this subsection,

(II) is evidence of authorization of employment in the United States, and

(III) contains security features to make it resistant to tampering, counterfeiting, and fraudulent use.

(C) Documents evidencing employment authorization
A document described in this subparagraph is an individual’s—

(i) social security account number card (other than such a card which specifies on the face that the issuance of the card does not authorize employment in the United States); or

(ii) other documentation evidencing authorization of employment in the United States which the Attorney General finds, by regulation, to be acceptable for purposes of this section.

(D) Documents establishing identity of individual
A document described in this subparagraph is an individual’s—

(i) driver’s license or similar document issued for the purpose of identification by a State, if it contains a photograph of the individual or such other personal identifying information relating to the individual as the Attorney General finds, by regulation, sufficient for purposes of this section; or

(ii) in the case of individuals under 16 years of age or in a State which does not provide for issuance of an identification document (other than a driver’s license) referred to in clause (i), documentation of personal identity of such other type as the Attorney General finds, by regulation, provides a reliable means of identification.

(E) Authority to prohibit use of certain documents
If the Attorney General finds, by regulation, that any document described in subparagraph (B), (C), or (D) as establishing employment authorization or identity does not reliably establish such authorization or identity or is being used fraudulently to an unacceptable degree, the Attorney General may prohibit or place conditions on its use for purposes of this subsection.


Since, in this case, federal employment is in the military, and the military follows it's own set of laws as well as federal law. I doubt this move of The Bamsters has much basis in reality to begin with. Even allowing that there is a mad rush of criminal immigrants entering military service, they still face penalties from both the Uniform Code of Military Justice and federal law if they should enlist fraudulently. According to article 83 of the UCMJ, fraudulently enlisting in the military carries a 2 year prison sentence, a dishonorable discharge, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances. With the possible exception of illegals who might find some benefit of being in prison, I think that's going to put the kibosh on a lot of fraudulent criminal immigrant enlistments.

Frankly though, I believe Col. West is correct. No President can make or alter laws without Congress. Executive Orders ONLY have the force of law if the subject of those orders clearly falls under the purview of the Executive Branch. Since immigration law falls under the authority of the Legislative Branch, the Kenyan has no such authority.

Here's what Whitehouse.gov has to say on the matter:

The Constitution grants Congress the sole authority to enact legislation and declare war, the right to confirm or reject many Presidential appointments, and substantial investigative powers.

Uh oh!

So, you don't like West, or conservatives, or whatever.... fine. Provide some Constitutional evidence that any President can enact or alter laws not under the auspices of the Executive Branch. Since it appears that his Constitutional understanding of the issue is in complete agreement with the White House's understanding of the issue, then Col. West is absolutely correct in stating that the Executive Branch is acting illegally.

-SD-


_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 10/1/2014 4:34:27 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Of course Joe must lie, thats what progressives do first and foremost.

Teddy roosevelt was a progressive?

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 10/1/2014 4:41:14 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr



I think what you meant to say that there were some people who were not able to get the necessary paperwork before they left their home country that came across,


anyway to plead their case for hardship relief or sanctuary. That would make them refugees; not illegal immigrants.


How exactly does this description not fit the illegals from mexico?

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 10/1/2014 5:51:02 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Well when the illegals came to Ellis Island and obviously wanted citizenship, they were sent right to and conscripted by the Army and soon thereafter right to France to kill or be killed in WWI.

Is this somehow different ?


If they arrived at Ellis Island to get citizenship then they were not illegals, they were immigrants and yes there is a big difference between the two. That said if someone is willing to serve for 4 years to get their citizenship I have no problems with that. As to Allen West, he sounds like an angry little man. I wouldn't take what he says to seriously.

Actually, you are correct but that does go to serve my point. At Ellis new arrivals were required to prove their identities, answer a series of questions, find a friend or relative who could vouch for them, and were scanned for physical ailments.

Where can anyone do that now ? Wouldn't it then be true that if they can't...are they then presumed to be 'illegals ?'


They go through the proper channels to apply for citizenship. This ain't rocket science so why are you trying to complicate it.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 10/1/2014 5:56:05 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
You are required under the UCMJ to disobey an illegal order.


So if I'm the Commanding Officer of a unit, I can order the NCO's to kill all the blacks in the same unit, and they would obey? Do you try applying your 'argument' to a real world scenario and then asked yourself, 'Does this sound correct'?

The UCMJ, like the US Constitution is an embodiment of laws. And those laws require people to study and handle the many issues that come up within. The understanding of a lawful and illegal order is often discussed in military colleges and court rooms. The United States Military does not operate as a 'Absolute, Lawful Neutral' organization. Where the law is followed in absolute strictness because those on either side of the argument,including the judge, are unable to think for themselves?

Knowing what is a lawful and illegal order can be a simple as using common sense, to very complex ideas were the gap between 'lawful' and 'illegal' either are to close to call, or overlap each other. That is why we have a military court and people to man it. To weigh the evidence and arguments and arrive at a decision. And there are many organizations internal and external that keep tabs on these military courts. Why is it your not aware of all of these concepts? If you were, you wouldn't have made your stupid comments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Although. . . let me guess, the UCMJ is not a legitimate source either?


You often display a very childish viewpoint on things (and not just limited to this topic). The UCMJ is as I stated above, an embodiment of laws. Rules, regulations, processes, and performances that are determined to be needed and useful to maintaining proper ability, discipline, and ethics. It keeps the military from landing itself in political hot water all the time.

Where did I state the UCMJ is not a useful source of information? Produce...EXACTLY...in this thread where I stated your 'viewpoint'? Either you can do it.....OR......YOUR A LIAR!

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Allen West calls on US Military to Disobey the Pres... - 10/1/2014 6:18:52 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Some interesting notes about Media Matters, the organization which Joe claims is keeping things straight. That would make them "fair", right? Even if backed by the left, if they're TRUTHFUL, then that means they don't lie or distort.

from Daily Caller: http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/16/media-matters-targets-revealed-business-wealth-christianity/

from National Review: http://m.nationalreview.com/articles/222389/real-media-matters/byron-york

from the Spectator: http://spectator.org/articles/36028/media-matters-obamas-watergate

from JawaReport: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/199317.php

from NewsBusters: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2009/10/22/media-matters-wont-apologize-spreading-fake-limbaugh-slavery-quote

from Front Page Magazine: http://www.frontpagemag.com/2012/jlaksin/media-matters-exposed/

from Canada Free Press: http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/media-matters-lies-again-this-time-about-obama-intimidating-supreme-court

from Discover the Networks: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/mediamattersagendasandactivities.html


How dumb are you? Are you not able to understand that each of your 'examples' comes from a conservative media source? You can tell the difference between a liberal and conservative media source, right? Of course you can. So let me hit you with the very next logical question that you....SHOULD HAVE....asked before making your post: What would these conservative media sources gain, using the same information as FOX News, by trying to eliminate the credibility of Media Matters?

Since time and again, these forums, like the rest of the nation, have seen examples from each of these publications that have no only lied, but shown they knew the facts and didn't report then since it 'undermined the cause'! When a media source lies about something, its up to people, regardless of their political viewpoints, to hold that media organization accountable and responsible. When the liberal ones have posted information that didn't hold up to scrutiny, they have taken responsibility. They explain what they reported, what errors took place, and an apology. Why do you think so many people laughed at FOX News in the 2012 election? That Karl Rove forced Megan Kelly to walk down and chat to the experts on the election results? Because all the time before, FOX News used 'evidence', 'experts', and 'reliable data' to show that Mitt Romney was not only going to win, but it would be (to quote FOX News) "A Landslide Win!".

You have display many examples in the past of not being able to tell the difference between 'journalistic news' and 'propaganda news'. And that's your problem.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 40
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