RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen

RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 4:23:57 PM)
quote: UKIP could make some serious inroads because there are a lot of people in this country who want out of the European Union, and they're the only party firmly offering it. I'd lay a bet that they won't, NG. They've notched up lots of points in by-elections and local elections - but they won't manage it in the coming general election. For a start, everyone knows that UKIP won't ever form a government. Secondly, the Tories will promise a referendum on membership of the EU, and they have a great deal more chance of forming a government. Thirdly, UKIP has no serious policy other than that of anti-Eu and anti-immigration. Basically, people will show their anger and vote UKIP for councils, the European Parliament and by-elections - but they won't do that in the general election. Ukip will gain a few seats. But not enough to be able to do anything with them. They won't be the junior party in a coalition. That's my bet. My bet is also that Labour will win a majority - though not a big one - and Miliband will become PM. Thereafter - I have no idea. He won't know what the frigging hell to do with the country, for the excellent reason that nobody in this country knows what the frigging hell to do with this country. God, I'm looking forward to this election. It'll be so fascinating!

Politesub53 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 4:41:49 PM)
Peon while you are right if you are talking about winning seats, you are incorrect if you think the UKIP share of the vote wont affect the results in the marginal seats. Lets not forget Cameron is already making threats and then backing down regards the EU. He promised a referendum in the 2010 manifesto, he has already put it off until after next May, and wont be able to back out of that if elected. While the election may be fascinating, the following five years could be another disaster, whoever gets in.

PeonForHer -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 5:46:11 PM)
Why are you so pessimistic, PS? Surely a good big shake up is just what we need?

Marini -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (11/30/2014 6:54:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Peon while you are right if you are talking about winning seats, you are incorrect if you think the UKIP share of the vote wont affect the results in the marginal seats. Lets not forget Cameron is already making threats and then backing down regards the EU. He promised a referendum in the 2010 manifesto, he has already put it off until after next May, and wont be able to back out of that if elected. While the election may be fascinating, the following five years could be another disaster, whoever gets in. We seem to have that phenomena in common. The way things have been going for the past 15 years, I doubt there will be significant improvements/or changes, regardless of who is seated in the White House. [8\|] We need a viable/winnable 3rd party, and who knows when or if that will ever come to fruition.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 2:59:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 But notice that it only took less than 48 hours to find one!! Personally, I don't think they tried very hard over the weekend. After all, it was a mental patient that was safely locked up in a cell; so they couldn't harm anyone. I think they got a tad lazy and the media exploded it out of proportion for sensationalistic headlines. I take it your media is more geared toward privatization (as opposed to the media in the US)? Or, is it more a case that, like in the US, the media is opposed to the current operation? The only time I've ever heard of there not being any beds available, is when there is a severe flu outbreak, and then it's limited more to ER space, than overall beds.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 3:17:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Of course over this side of the pond the homelss/mentally ill are shot and killed by cops, and/or put in jail due to the lack of space, facilities and shortage. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/5-key-cases-of-police-shooting-deaths-involving-mentally-ill-individuals-1.2748257 http://www.jaapl.org/content/38/1/104.full http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/4/8/mental-illness-prison.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/14/nyregion/rikers-study-finds-prisoners-injured-by-employees.html?_r=0 http://nicic.gov/mentalillness The ACLU released dashboard camera footage showing eight cops firing 46 shots at Milton Hall. The mentally ill man was holding a pen knife. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/graphic-new-video-released-mich-cops-killing-homeless-man-article-1.1990595 With just 50,000 inpatient psychiatric beds for tens of millions of people across the country, the mentally ill typically wait twice as long for treatment as other patient populations do. "It's like landing airplanes at O'Hare airport," says Ken Duckworth, medical director of the National Alliance on Mental Illness. "For psychiatric patients in particular, every day is the Wednesday before Thanksgiving at O'Hare. There is just no place for them to go." http://www.newsweek.com/woman-who-died-hospital-waiting-room-92661 If you have ever worked with mentally ill patients, the system has been broken since the 90s....in the US, Canada, ANd the UK and to say that universal access means instant access is fucking bullshit. Your attempt to equate, even a little bit, the case of a woman suffering from a mental illness and causing a "breach of peace," to inmates who are incarcerated as criminals is appalling. She was kept in the jail because there were no beds "in the country" for her. The people in the articles you cited weren't waiting for beds in a psych ward, they were criminals who had mental illness. There is a huge difference.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 3:22:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Anyone can walk into a hospital ER and will be taken care of to the best of the hospital's ability (which, btw, is better care than that received in a jail). EMTALA means they can't turn anyone away for lack of ability to pay. Any patient that comes in has to, at the very least, be stabilized, if the hospital can do so. If the hospital can't stabilize the patient because of lack of ability, that patient gets transferred to a hospital that has that ability. It's a pretty fucked up system, innit? So, for now on, I do expect you to put an asterisk next to "universal" to identify that it's not universal. So, yeah, you have Universal* Health care. Bollocks...... EMTALA isnt anywhere near an equivalent to the NHS service. It is only equal to our A & E.....How the fuck you decided to bring jails into the debate is beyond me, but then again much of your bullshit is beyond me. I never stated that EMTALA is equivalent, or near equivalent to the NHS. I'm not familiar with "A&E," so I can't make a point towards it. How the fuck did I decide to bring jails into the debate? That's seriously beyond you? Sanity might not use the King's English, but I still assumed you could interpret his posts, click links and read. The whole discussion about "Universal Access" has to do with a woman who was kept in a jail cell because of lack of a bed at a hospital. Maybe you don't actually read what Sanity posts (not exactly the worst decision you could make), but that's where jails came into play.

Lucylastic -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 5:08:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Of course over this side of the pond the homelss/mentally ill are shot and killed by cops, and/or put in jail due to the lack of space, facilities and shortage. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/5-key-cases-of-police-shooting-deaths-involving-mentally-ill-individuals-1.2748257 http://www.jaapl.org/content/38/1/104.full http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/4/8/mental-illness-prison.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/14/nyregion/rikers-study-finds-prisoners-injured-by-employees.html?_r=0 http://nicic.gov/mentalillness The ACLU released dashboard camera footage showing eight cops firing 46 shots at Milton Hall. The mentally ill man was holding a pen knife. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/graphic-new-video-released-mich-cops-killing-homeless-man-article-1.1990595 With just 50,000 inpatient psychiatric beds for tens of millions of people across the country, the mentally ill typically wait twice as long for treatment as other patient populations do. "It's like landing airplanes at O'Hare airport," says Ken Duckworth, medical director of the National Alliance on Mental Illness. "For psychiatric patients in particular, every day is the Wednesday before Thanksgiving at O'Hare. There is just no place for them to go." http://www.newsweek.com/woman-who-died-hospital-waiting-room-92661 If you have ever worked with mentally ill patients, the system has been broken since the 90s....in the US, Canada, ANd the UK and to say that universal access means instant access is fucking bullshit. Your attempt to equate, even a little bit, the case of a woman suffering from a mental illness and causing a "breach of peace," to inmates who are incarcerated as criminals is appalling. She was kept in the jail because there were no beds "in the country" for her. The people in the articles you cited weren't waiting for beds in a psych ward, they were criminals who had mental illness. There is a huge difference. She was detained.... she was in the system, she was in their custody, having a secure place to put her is NOT universal access, she was judged to have been sectionable, danger to herself or others. Was she already or had been in the system? Has she been sectioned before? what for? what kind of breach of the peace, was she known by the police for anything else? was she homeless? was she an addict, drunk, there was no family mentioned, only a tweet that says theres no room for her in the whole country. I dont give a flying leaky anal fissure that you think Im appalling, considering how hard you have made your health care simply about lowering the fucking costs, you dont and havent given a shit about the human reality. So dont play all aghast at me, you simply havent got a case to suddenly bleed liberal and be taken seriously Im a proud red blooded tree hugging, heart bleeding goody two shoes fucking liberal and I totally agree with your assertion she should have a place for her, that the system for two days failed her. If the cops had killed her, she would have been just another troubled female who had a suicide by cop. Amazing how the people in the articles cited were NOT all criminals so read a little closer, oh and by the way, drunk, homeless, mentally ill people are wrongly charged and detained every day. AND they land IN PRISONS because there are not enough mentally ill places available. Yes in the UK the US and Canada. Your lack of knowledge is excruciatingly obvious, I can give you a hundred more links, if you wish, but given your attempt to lie about the links I gave you already, you can do some serious research yourself. Its easy enough.... Im done with this for today.

Sanity -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 5:33:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic She was detained.... she was in the system, she was in their custody, having a secure place to put her is NOT universal access, she was judged to have been sectionable, danger to herself or others. Was she already or had been in the system? Has she been sectioned before? what for? what kind of breach of the peace, was she known by the police for anything else? was she homeless? was she an addict, drunk, there was no family mentioned, only a tweet that says theres no room for her in the whole country. I dont give a flying leaky anal fissure that you think Im appalling, considering how hard you have made your health care simply about lowering the fucking costs, you dont and havent given a shit about the human reality. So dont play all aghast at me, you simply havent got a case to suddenly bleed liberal and be taken seriously Im a proud red blooded tree hugging, heart bleeding goody two shoes fucking liberal and I totally agree with your assertion she should have a place for her, that the system for two days failed her. If the cops had killed her, she would have been just another troubled female who had a suicide by cop. Amazing how the people in the articles cited were NOT all criminals so read a little closer, oh and by the way, drunk, homeless, mentally ill people are wrongly charged and detained every day. AND they land IN PRISONS because there are not enough mentally ill places available. Yes in the UK the US and Canada. Your lack of knowledge is excruciatingly obvious, I can give you a hundred more links, if you wish, but given your attempt to lie about the links I gave you already, you can do some serious research yourself. Its easy enough.... Im done with this for today. Go ahead and lick that slimy troll ass some more DS You know you want to

NorthernGent -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 5:51:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: UKIP could make some serious inroads because there are a lot of people in this country who want out of the European Union, and they're the only party firmly offering it. I'd lay a bet that they won't, NG. They've notched up lots of points in by-elections and local elections - but they won't manage it in the coming general election. For a start, everyone knows that UKIP won't ever form a government. Secondly, the Tories will promise a referendum on membership of the EU, and they have a great deal more chance of forming a government. Thirdly, UKIP has no serious policy other than that of anti-Eu and anti-immigration. Basically, people will show their anger and vote UKIP for councils, the European Parliament and by-elections - but they won't do that in the general election. Ukip will gain a few seats. But not enough to be able to do anything with them. They won't be the junior party in a coalition. That's my bet. My bet is also that Labour will win a majority - though not a big one - and Miliband will become PM. Thereafter - I have no idea. He won't know what the frigging hell to do with the country, for the excellent reason that nobody in this country knows what the frigging hell to do with this country. God, I'm looking forward to this election. It'll be so fascinating! Are you? Christ, you're easily pleased, Peon. If Labour win a majority, I'll eat my hat and yours; and Sanity's, which will likely be a big hat. No chance. The Conservative Party have it all wrapped up. They're much more believable and they did a very good job of painting Labour as reckless during their stewardship. I think the majority of people will see the Conservative Party as the safer bet when election day comes round.

Lucylastic -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 5:52:20 AM)
damn thats bloody sad state of affairs NG

PeonForHer -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 6:04:58 AM)
quote: I think the majority of people will see the Conservative Party as the safer bet when election day comes round The polls have generally had Labour ahead, despite everything. I'd be surprised if they won a majority.

NorthernGent -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 6:14:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: I think the majority of people will see the Conservative Party as the safer bet when election day comes round The polls have generally had Labour ahead, despite everything. I'd be surprised if they won a majority. The polls rarely mean anything come election day, particularly as the disgruntled have their say in a fashion that does not damage their political interests. Let's have a few quid on it, and I agree that as European Union is increasingly getting on most people's nerves, the Conservative Party vote will be bolstered. Add in that they'll win the argument on the economy and it's theirs to lose as far as I can tell.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 6:31:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: I think the majority of people will see the Conservative Party as the safer bet when election day comes round The polls have generally had Labour ahead, despite everything. I'd be surprised if they won a majority. Unless it all goes tits-up and surprises everyone, I don't see either party getting a landslide victory. The Cons have painted Labour as a party of borrow and spend and can't be trusted with the economy or the deficit. Labour has painted Conservatives as the party of austerity and cuts and harming the majority of people. The Lib Dems, in an attempt to be 'different' to the other two, seem to have just sunk almost into oblivion. In Scotland, Conservatives lost a lot and many Labour seats were lost to the SNP; although they aren't that popular elsewhere in the UK and I don't see them gaining many seats in the house. UKIP have gained many supporters with their anti-Europe and anti-immigration stance. Whether that transcribes into seats is another question. But you can see why they got so popular with that soapbox. The youngsters see immigrants taking their jobs. The older ones see Brussels taking away powers and bringing in stupid rules and also that the EU that was good for us in the past is no longer serving our interests because of poorer countries being allowed to join. I think it will be interesting to say the least. Me?? I'm gonna be an asshole and vote UKIP just because I am sick to the back teeth of the main three. [:D]

NorthernGent -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 11:43:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Me?? I'm gonna be an asshole and vote UKIP just because I am sick to the back teeth of the main three. [:D] Asshole? It's arsehole, man! There's nothing wrong, well, no more wrong than any other political party, with UKIP. They're no more than disaffected conservatives. Not that I'd vote for them because I just can't bring myself to vote for any people close to the establishment. But, in the event I was asked who has it more right in terms of principles, then I'd have to say the conservatives and UKIP than the Labour Party.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 12:46:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Asshole? It's arsehole, man! I know! lol. But seeing as this site is American-centric, I thought I'd try and speak their lingo even if the thread is all about us mad dogs over here [:D] I honestly believe that the EU has run its course for us in the UK. When there were 9 or 10 countries in it, it was useful to us. Even if I didn't agree with everything about it, the EU had its uses. Nowadays, there are too many poorer nations emptying the pot faster than the rest of us can re-fill it. That and the federalism being posited by the likes of France, Italy and Germany scare me to hell. Add all that to the way Brussels is slowly wresting away our national powers and introducing even more stupidity regulations is frightening. Cockroach says if he gets in, we'll have a true in/out referendum - but not until 2017!! Millipede and Clump want us to stay in. [:'(] Only UKIP has said that it will pull us out of the EU; which I truly would like to see happening. So that on its own gets my vote.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 2:41:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic I dont give a flying leaky anal fissure that you think Im appalling, considering how hard you have made your health care simply about lowering the fucking costs, you dont and havent given a shit about the human reality. The human reality, Lucy, is that health care costs too fucking much! That's the whole fucking point! Why do you need health insurance?

mnottertail -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 2:46:18 PM)
We shouldnt. We need single payer nationalized healthcare, and to dismantle the insurance companies and lobbies.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 3:08:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail We shouldnt. We need single payer nationalized healthcare, and to dismantle the insurance companies and lobbies. Do I hear dissent in the ranks, Ron?? [:D]

mnottertail -> RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen (12/1/2014 3:37:28 PM)
I'm arf socialist, aren't I. Me grea' granda being from Bethersden Kent and so forf, wot? On me mums side, 'e were a Hook, 'e were. Had a rellie won the victorias cross in Zulu wif Michael Caine.

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