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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 12:57:47 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

I know there are quite a few ex-pats out there, but I don't think it runs into the hundreds (maybe thousands) every week that are trying to get into the UK.
I don't see it as a huge problem.



They flock to France, Spain and Portugal in their tens of thousands. In Spain, before the crash entire large sprawling towns with a fish and chip shop on every corner were built to accommodate the none Spanish speaking Brits that hate Spanish food and refuse to make an effort with the natives. They have put money into the Spanish economy though, just like the immigrants here have put huge amounts of money into our economy


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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 12:59:26 PM   
mnottertail


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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 1:01:11 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Because too many immigrants are not respecting the British way of life.


You mean they don’t play cricket, drink tea in the afternoon or sit around on Xmas day to watch the Queens speech? I’ve been privy to the citizenship exam which you may be surprised to know is incredibly tough. You are expected to have good knowledge about the democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and the tolerance of those with different faiths and believes. Most UK citizens would fail that exam miserably.

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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 1:05:46 PM   
DaddySatyr


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Citizenship isn't about a test. It's about assimilating into your new homeland. It's about become a product member of the society in which you've chosen to live. It's about being a good neighbor.

I don't give a good shit if an immigrant to my country can tell me who the sixteenth president was. I care that they work, raise their family to appreciate their new home land and learn the language.



Michael

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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 1:27:37 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


Citizenship isn't about a test. It's about assimilating into your new homeland. It's about become a product member of the society in which you've chosen to live. It's about being a good neighbor.

I don't give a good shit if an immigrant to my country can tell me who the sixteenth president was. I care that they work, raise their family to appreciate their new home land and learn the language.



Michael

Well said!!
Better than I explained it.


And this is something that an awful lot of immigrants don't and won't do.


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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 1:34:45 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:


Read what I wrote PS - the info came directly from talking with the other applicants. It's not bollocks.


Maybe not. But it's just anecdotal. It's a long way from that story to the (non) fact that 'immigrants get priority on the social housing ladder'.

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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 1:36:51 PM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
No it isn't a myth, Peon.
True account that happened to me, not just some idle media story.
[Edit: November 2011, not March]



Yes, it's a myth. It's a myth cooked up by racist xenophobes for use by other racist xenophobes.

You inadvertently touched on one factor that does significantly affect the waiting time - the number of children in a family, which has a very significant impact on priority for housing.

But it is absolutely not the case that immigrants get an "immigrant bonus" when it comes to housing waiting lists.

Now that's been made clear, I trust you won't be attempting to use what is basically racist propaganda, designed to spread hate.



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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 1:40:19 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


Read what I wrote PS - the info came directly from talking with the other applicants. It's not bollocks.


Maybe not. But it's just anecdotal. It's a long way from that story to the (non) fact that 'immigrants get priority on the social housing ladder'.

They actually do Peon. That's the problem.

They go to great lengths to explain how people are awarded points based on need and circumstances etc etc etc.
When they present the 'evidence', it looks all straight and above board and pretty much indisputable.
But what they don't tell you is that immigrants are shuffled into a 'special group' where most Brits can't get into, no matter how dire your circumstances are.
And that's how and why they frequently get more points than the otherwise equivalent Brit.

Just like females are a higher priority than males - 'vulnerable group'.
A pregnant female gets more for being pregnant - 'special group' and 'vulnerable group'.
There are lots of different groups, each with their own sets of points awarded.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 12/3/2014 1:44:25 PM >

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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 1:40:45 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:


And this is something that an awful lot of immigrants don't and won't do.


The country as 'swamped with benefit-seeking immigrants' is another myth, FD.

"6.6 per cent of working age non-UK nationals currently get a state handout, as opposed to 16.6 per cent of British nationals."

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-how-many-migrants-are-on-the-dole/9148

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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 1:46:21 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


And this is something that an awful lot of immigrants don't and won't do.


The country as 'swamped with benefit-seeking immigrants' is another myth, FD.

"6.6 per cent of working age non-UK nationals currently get a state handout, as opposed to 16.6 per cent of British nationals."

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-how-many-migrants-are-on-the-dole/9148

Then explain to me, why another site states that immigrants take out $119m more than they put in??
I cited that in another post.


Found something... Not my original cite but something similar -
The IPPR analysis suggests that real revenues from migrants grew by 22% from fiscal year 1999-2000 to fiscal year 2003-2004 (reaching GBP 41.2 billion). However, the expenditure associated with immigrants reached GBP 41.6 billion in the fiscal year 2003-2004. Therefore, the net contribution of immigrants in the fiscal year 2003-2004 was negative at GBP -0.4 billion
Source: http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

It's not how many, but what impact they have overall. In this study, a £0.4bn deficit to the system.

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 12/3/2014 2:04:04 PM >

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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 2:19:11 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Where did I contradict myself??


You can’t work if you are an illegal right? not legally anyway? but you said, UKIP are not attacking legals-just those that don’t want to work and drain our resources. Those that don’t want to work and drain our resources surely have to be legals then? There lies the contradiction.

quote:


What I am against are those that want to drain our benefits system because it is more than they would get back in their own country.


These anti immigration sentiments come from the popular press. Instead of people doing their own research, they believe alarming headlines like “Migrants exploit our benefits system” and “Migrants drain the NHS”. Its absolute tosh. If its benefits they after, why come to Britain? In France and this is only one example, unemployment benefits are considerably higher than they are here. They even give you extra money for pets. According to Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration, legal immigrants are 60% less likely than natives to claim, receive or be entitled to state benefits or tax credits and 58% less likely to live in social housing.

quote:

No, I'm not anti-immigrant. Our lodger is a young lady from Bulgaria who happens to work very hard for her money.


Who are you kidding?!?! You can’t individualize it like that. You have clearly shown your annoyance towards foreigners and one Bulgarian lodger doesn’t balance out your comments elsewhere. That's like saying, I can show prejudice to others because I’m black!





< Message edited by MariaB -- 12/3/2014 2:27:16 PM >

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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 2:24:53 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Being told we must down-size to a 2-bed house so as not to incur the 'bedroom tax' but just over the back of me in a new social housing development, a white (non-working) female foreigner with one child is given a 3-bed house.


Now this is an interesting one because its something I’m directly involved with at the moment. It involves an African immigrant who’s children have now left home living in a 3 bedroom house and an English couple with 2 children living in a one bedroom house. The African woman has been on a waiting list to downsize for some time. She simply can’t afford the bedroom tax and has consequently got into debt. The English couple have also been on the waiting list to up-size. After communications between one another they approached the council to see if they could do a house swap but because the African woman is in arrears with her rent, the council won’t allow the exchange. What has become clear is, there is a big shortage on smaller one bedroom houses/apartments and what has also become clear is, the local council in Leeds are making the movement to up-size and down-size almost impossible. This of course has nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with bureaucracy. There appears to be a system in place to stop or make it incredibly difficult to downsize.



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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 2:47:30 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Being told we must down-size to a 2-bed house so as not to incur the 'bedroom tax' but just over the back of me in a new social housing development, a white (non-working) female foreigner with one child is given a 3-bed house.


Now this is an interesting one because its something I’m directly involved with at the moment. It involves an African immigrant who’s children have now left home living in a 3 bedroom house and an English couple with 2 children living in a one bedroom house. The African woman has been on a waiting list to downsize for some time. She simply can’t afford the bedroom tax and has consequently got into debt. The English couple have also been on the waiting list to up-size. After communications between one another they approached the council to see if they could do a house swap but because the African woman is in arrears with her rent, the council won’t allow the exchange. What has become clear is, there is a big shortage on smaller one bedroom houses/apartments and what has also become clear is, the local council in Leeds are making the movement to up-size and down-size almost impossible. This of course has nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with bureaucracy. There appears to be a system in place to stop or make it incredibly difficult to downsize.



Yes, it is another huge problem that cockroach didn't think about.
This is exactly why we decided to rent out the spare room under the Rent-A-Room scheme when our son left home.
We can't afford the bedroom tax either.
They have already capped the Council Tax benefit to 70%; we have to make up the rest
If I were older, a pensioner, we would get the full 100% like we used to.
Our money has gone up by about £3 a week. The liability has gone up by almost £17pw.
Net result is £14pw more to pay out than we used to.

It is a big problem for a lot of those not working.


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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 2:50:55 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:


Then explain to me, why another site states that immigrants take out $119m more than they put in??
I cited that in another post.


You'll have to find that post, FD. But even if it's true, $119 in national terms is pretty small beer. I do remember our talking about that, though - see comments below.


Found something... Not my original cite but something similar -
The IPPR analysis suggests that real revenues from migrants grew by 22% from fiscal year 1999-2000 to fiscal year 2003-2004 (reaching GBP 41.2 billion). However, the expenditure associated with immigrants reached GBP 41.6 billion in the fiscal year 2003-2004. Therefore, the net contribution of immigrants in the fiscal year 2003-2004 was negative at GBP -0.4 billion
Source: http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

It's not how many, but what impact they have overall. In this study, a £0.4bn deficit to the system.


My understanding is that the earlier generations of immigrants is now of retirement age. Obviously, now, they'll therefore be taking money out rather than putting it in. I've come to realise that we always have to be careful with the figures - especially the government figures - of the cost of welfare: when the government wants to make a case for 'idle non-workers', it'll included the pensions bill, the better to inflate the figure. But the Tories won't ever bash the pensioners because these tend a) to vote - versus young people and b) vote Tory, because they tend to be more right wing, stuffed up, stupid and selfish.

However, younger immigrants are anything but workshy. Of course they're frigging not - why would they be? They've come from places where they've had to work a *lot* harder for a *lot* less money. For the average Eastern European, and still more for the average immigrant from the Indian subcontinent, the UK must look like a holiday camp. You do a mere, lazy forty hour week, and earn what you could only get in a quarter-year where they come from. At the same time you've been born and brought up in a society where there's no culture of benefits: you're aware, from the year dot, that you earn your money, or you die.

It makes fuck all sense to bang on about 'benefit-chasing immigrants' FD. It's bollocks.

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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 2:55:02 PM   
PeonForHer


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Well, at least we're all fighting amongst ourselves. That's the main thing. The evil, society-ruining people are single parents, or idle immigrants, or lazy grasping workers ... but they're never, ever the rich and the powerful. *Nobody's* looking at them.

Phew, so that's all right then!

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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 3:02:18 PM   
mnottertail


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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 3:12:53 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Actually, Mark Reckless left the conservatives because he felt he was unable, as a conscientious MP, to fullfil the promises he made to the local electorate under the current conservative plans and that UKIP fitted the bill better.

Its more like, he wasn’t prepared to risk losing his seat and as the MP of Rochester I don’t blame him. Northern seats are unstable because that is where UKIP are concentrating their very succesful campaign. I’m in no doubt that we will see more MP’s from the north defecting.

It was more of a risk than you think.
He jumped from a very safe conservative seat and joined UKIP who weren't targeting the area.
If the local people didn't like what UKIP was offering, he would have lost to Kelly Tolhurst, the conservative candidate.

He put his political career on the line for what he believed in.


That's good on him. Every politician should do the same. I'm tired of US politicians that will say and do anything just to get elected or re-elected.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
I see the UK is done with the fucking around now, and in March, is going to pay off the 3 and 1/2% bonds amounting to some $3B (that's all of them) left from WWI and refinanced in 1932. The vexing question, Yank billions or UK billions? And if our billions are different, are our trillions as well?

I do believe they are different, Ron.
I haven't looked it up but I think a US billion is 1,000million whereas a UK billion is a million million??
And if your trillions are based on your billions, that would also make them different.


Are you serious in your definitions, FD? What comes between Million and Billion then? You're right that 1000 Million is 1 Billion. Also, 1000 Billion is 1 Trillion, so 1000000 Million (or 1 Million Million) is also 1 Trillion.

There has to be something between a Million and a Billion over there, is a Billion is 1000000 Million.

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 3:13:33 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
My understanding is that the earlier generations of immigrants is now of retirement age. Obviously, now, they'll therefore be taking money out rather than putting it in. I've come to realise that we always have to be careful with the figures - especially the government figures - of the cost of welfare: when the government wants to make a case for 'idle non-workers', it'll included the pensions bill, the better to inflate the figure. But the Tories won't ever bash the pensioners because these tend a) to vote - versus young people and b) vote Tory, because they tend to be more right wing, stuffed up, stupid and selfish.

However, younger immigrants are anything but workshy. Of course they're frigging not - why would they be? They've come from places where they've had to work a *lot* harder for a *lot* less money. For the average Eastern European, and still more for the average immigrant from the Indian subcontinent, the UK must look like a holiday camp. You do a mere, lazy forty hour week, and earn what you could only get in a quarter-year where they come from. At the same time you've been born and brought up in a society where there's no culture of benefits: you're aware, from the year dot, that you earn your money, or you die.

It makes fuck all sense to bang on about 'benefit-chasing immigrants' FD. It's bollocks.

Then why is cockroach trying to introduce new measures to stop such a drain if it's all bollocks. Huh??
If there wasn't a grain of truth in it, he wouldn't need to do anything and UKIP wouldn't use it as a ploy to grab voters.
The figures can be massaged to fit whatever agenda you are presenting, I agree.
The link I gave was from Oxford University, not a newspaper or blog spot.

And many immigrants do work; there's no question about that.
But there are also many that don't.
Those Kosovan arseholes down the road from me are proof of that - and they are a drain on the system.

As for Maria's claim that illegals can't work, why is it that special units are finding them all over the place? Working for a gang leader and getting very little for it? Or working for food outlets that belong to so-called 'friends' or relatives but otherwise get (allegedly) just food and board in return?
There was a TV program about it last year. About immigration officers tracking down these illegals.
Small pickings, yes, but it is possible to be an illegal and get paid work.



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RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 3:18:17 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Where did I contradict myself??

You can’t work if you are an illegal right? not legally anyway? but you said, UKIP are not attacking legals-just those that don’t want to work and drain our resources. Those that don’t want to work and drain our resources surely have to be legals then? There lies the contradiction.


Being legal or illegal has nothing to do with what the immigrant wants. Just because you're illegal doesn't mean you want to work. Apparently, it's just illegal for an illegal to work.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Mad Dogs and Englishmen - 12/3/2014 3:30:51 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Are you serious in your definitions, FD? What comes between Million and Billion then? You're right that 1000 Million is 1 Billion. Also, 1000 Billion is 1 Trillion, so 1000000 Million (or 1 Million Million) is also 1 Trillion.

There has to be something between a Million and a Billion over there, is a Billion is 1000000 Million.

Apparently, the US and the UK have adopted the "short scale" numbers.
Other European countries have not (yet).

The old system used to use different scales of numbers for the same word.

It is explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_large_numbers
and here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15478580

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