Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled

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AAkasha -> Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/7/2014 1:16:30 PM)
In another thread a sub (bottom?) was lamenting 3-day playtime with a femdom and how when looking back, he only enjoyed 40% of the playtime, and the other 60% was suffering. And he wasn't that attracted to her also. If other subs look at this equation and think he is deserving of 100% enjoyment or 80% enjoyment and 20% "suffering" I have to ask -- what do you think sadistic, dominant women are? Taking just 'power exchange' out of the equation for a moment -- looking at women into S&m, there must be some understanding that we women are actually -- well, sadistic. Granted, there's a difference between cruelty and sensual sadism. I enjoy making a man suffer so long as he does so willingly for me. If a sub comes to me with a whole plateful of "suffering" he "wants" to endure (hence, the 40% this sub enjoyed, for example) then I am just someone delivering a service - may as well be giving him a massage. How does this scratch the sadistic itch? For all of those subs that claim they cannot find an authentic woman into S&m -- remember, they exist but they are INTO S&M! That means you have to suffer now and then because that's what gets many of us off. The disconnect comes from lack of chemistry. When a man (he can even be vanilla) is sensually, sexually attracted to a woman and is made to endure something challenging, painful or humiliating and he sees that this turns her on, this becomes the reward. He does not enjoy the act, but he enjoys the outcome. This is where the dance works. My feeling is that this particular situation fell apart because he wasn't that into the woman, and she perhaps was not providing the right feedback (ie, sitting on his face when she was wet -- "see how much your degradation or grunt work gets me off?" -- or more subtle, "good boy - you make me VERY happy"). Akasha

DesFIP -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/7/2014 1:24:25 PM)
But dominant does not automatically mean sadistic. And even when it does, your kinks may not align. I'm okay with some thud but sting for me is never pleasant, never something I can turn into acceptable. It's always hated and pulls me out of my headspace. Which means that even if he switches back to something I normally can tolerate, I won't then. Beyond that, if you expect a sub to hate everything you do and come back for more, then you're looking for an emotional masochist. And it's perfectly acceptable for a sub to want to be with someone they are compatible with. For me, hating 60% of play would mean incompatibility. Not that I'm not a true sub, but not a good match for that top.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/7/2014 1:30:20 PM)
I tend to look for partners whose "hard" limits line up with mine. I'm not a sadist, by any stretch but there are some things that I demand that some ladies will find un-enjoyable. Of course, some ladies find those things to be enjoyable. They're the ones I want in my life. I refuse to force just about anything on anyone. I will admit that when a lady endures something that she doesn't necessarily care for in an effort to please me, that does make me happy (and proud and humble, at the same time). So, I guess I am one of those who thinks that a lady should enjoy about 80% of our time together and maybe "suffer" 20% of the time. Michael

InHisHeart -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/7/2014 2:56:04 PM)
Suffering to me would be something done/said that would cause me serious emotional distress and I wouldn't be with someone who would cause that in me. Physically, there are some things he does that I don't like, it's not the type of play and/or pain I enjoy but they bring him pleasure and seeing the pleasure he gets turns me on. There have been times with intense impact play where I've dropped to my knees in tears but I'm not suffering. I don't need to enjoy everything he enjoys in order to get turned on and the things he likes that I don't like are few. I have a love/hate relationship with humiliation play so I can see that as somewhat suffering. I suffer from embarrassment, from being put on display in a humiliating way, from being made to do things I find humiliating but at the same time I'm very turned on by it. I suppose I'm a spoiled sub, his sadistic side and my masochistic are very much in tune with each other. If he wants to really make me suffer, he'd make me cook.

NookieNotes -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/7/2014 3:11:22 PM)
There are things my Pet does not like. But he never "suffers" in a way that he would describe as such. 13 days of tease and denial, with a final of 4 1/2 hours of hard-core teasing before orgasm? Suffering, yes. Saying he suffered? No. Because it is something he does for me. If my Pet felt he "suffered" more than 5% of the time with me, then I would say we were incompatible, and release him. Not because I don't like to torture him, but because it should be torture that aligns with either my pleasure, or our goals for our relationship or his betterment. I am not sadistic. But I am strict, and can be cruel. I don't enjoy or want suffering anywhere near my house, except in very specific cases. If you enjoy giving suffering, and you have someone who enjoys receiving it, then awesome. I can't imagine someone not enjoying suffereing coming back to often for more. And if they enjoy it, is it really suffering?

seekingreality -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/7/2014 3:25:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha In another thread a sub (bottom?) was lamenting 3-day playtime with a femdom and how when looking back, he only enjoyed 40% of the playtime, and the other 60% was suffering. And he wasn't that attracted to her also. If other subs look at this equation and think he is deserving of 100% enjoyment or 80% enjoyment and 20% "suffering" I have to ask -- what do you think sadistic, dominant women are? Taking just 'power exchange' out of the equation for a moment -- looking at women into S&m, there must be some understanding that we women are actually -- well, sadistic. Granted, there's a difference between cruelty and sensual sadism. I enjoy making a man suffer so long as he does so willingly for me. If a sub comes to me with a whole plateful of "suffering" he "wants" to endure (hence, the 40% this sub enjoyed, for example) then I am just someone delivering a service - may as well be giving him a massage. How does this scratch the sadistic itch? For all of those subs that claim they cannot find an authentic woman into S&m -- remember, they exist but they are INTO S&M! That means you have to suffer now and then because that's what gets many of us off. The disconnect comes from lack of chemistry. When a man (he can even be vanilla) is sensually, sexually attracted to a woman and is made to endure something challenging, painful or humiliating and he sees that this turns her on, this becomes the reward. He does not enjoy the act, but he enjoys the outcome. This is where the dance works. My feeling is that this particular situation fell apart because he wasn't that into the woman, and she perhaps was not providing the right feedback (ie, sitting on his face when she was wet -- "see how much your degradation or grunt work gets me off?" -- or more subtle, "good boy - you make me VERY happy"). Akasha I think the terms "suffering" and "enjoyment" are too vague to be useful in this discussion. You can suffer and ultimately enjoy it, so it's not like they are opposite. The real problem, in the thread you cite, was a disconnect in their needs and desires. It also seemed there was a lack of communication and (as you say) a lack of physical attraction. For example, you explain what you need in terms of your "sadistic itch." However, another domme may not have the same need. So what works for you might not work for someone else. And a sub can't assume a "sadistic itch." That's why you need to be open with each other.

FieryOpal -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/7/2014 7:25:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes There are things my Pet does not like. But he never "suffers" in a way that he would describe as such.... If my Pet felt he "suffered" more than 5% of the time with me, then I would say we were incompatible, and release him. Not because I don't like to torture him, but because it should be torture that aligns with either my pleasure, or our goals for our relationship or his betterment. .... And if they enjoy it, is it really suffering? AAkasha, I wasn't going to post on this thread because I'm not a sadist, and I don't deal with masochists. But in reading other posters, I do want to address a couple of issues, if you don't mind. Nookie, I chose to quote you because I truly feel that my sub should NEVER feel he is suffering for me. In fact, I want both of our cups to be overflowing. I'm not talking about typical vanilla relationship-type sacrifices that partners make for one another. If 5% of the time, my sub is NEUTRAL, then I can live with that. 95% of the time, I want him to want what I want, and vice versa. I just can't see an intimate, committed relationship any other way, D/s or no D/s dynamic. The other issue has to do with this sadism thing. I personally know one and of another Sadist who deliberately don't want a masochistic partner. The reason is simple and OP's post echoes this as well. They are Sadists. They WANT their partner to suffer and to show their devotion by tolerating pain. Both consider themselves to be kind, Sensual Sadists. But they don't want their partner enjoying the pain they inflict. IF I were a Sadist, I would consider this to be unethical, despite prior communications and disclosures. But I'm not, so I am in no position to judge. If I were Sadistic, I would call myself a Sado-masochist, to clearly indicate that it is BOTH components which are being melded together on a mutually pleasurable, consensual basis.

shiftyw -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/7/2014 7:31:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I tend to look for partners whose "hard" limits line up with mine. I'm not a sadist, by any stretch but there are some things that I demand that some ladies will find un-enjoyable. Of course, some ladies find those things to be enjoyable. They're the ones I want in my life. I refuse to force just about anything on anyone. I will admit that when a lady endures something that she doesn't necessarily care for in an effort to please me, that does make me happy (and proud and humble, at the same time). So, I guess I am one of those who thinks that a lady should enjoy about 80% of our time together and maybe "suffer" 20% of the time. Michael This is how I see it. I suffer pretty much like...5% of the time. We are very compatible, and I found the relationship that works for me...

rokkman7456 -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/8/2014 1:05:01 AM)
Interesting topic, I would call my Domme a sadist and myself a masochist, but there are times when I break the rules and it is suffering that she is inflicting and it is what I agreed to take. I do not care for it at the time but look back on it later lovingly. I agreed to certain things and if I do not live up to them then I get punished, HARD. Personally I would not have it any other way.

NookieNotes -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/8/2014 3:30:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FieryOpal If 5% of the time, my sub is NEUTRAL, then I can live with that. 95% of the time, I want him to want what I want, and vice versa. Agreed. I was thinking more along the lines of the time when inevitable relationship strife will happen, and there will be suffering, although not necessarily at my hands, but for me and for us.

FieryOpal -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/8/2014 5:21:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes quote: ORIGINAL: FieryOpal If 5% of the time, my sub is NEUTRAL, then I can live with that. 95% of the time, I want him to want what I want, and vice versa. Agreed. I was thinking more along the lines of the time when inevitable relationship strife will happen, and there will be suffering, although not necessarily at my hands, but for me and for us. If you hadn't come up with it first, I would have probably said the same thing along those lines. That 95:5 ratio struck a chord with me. I would hope that I wouldn't end up with a sub who kept things bottled up or was reticent to freely open up to me about his feelings, or give me the feedback I need to make adjustments. In that sense, I could only allow for a 1-2% margin of discontent (barring unforeseen circumstances). There are enough hardships in life as it is, without causing unneeded grief - much less suffering - to those we care about and whose happiness should matter the most to us, who then in turn bring us happiness and joy.

GoddessManko -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/8/2014 7:00:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I tend to look for partners whose "hard" limits line up with mine. I'm not a sadist, by any stretch but there are some things that I demand that some ladies will find un-enjoyable. Of course, some ladies find those things to be enjoyable. They're the ones I want in my life. I refuse to force just about anything on anyone. I will admit that when a lady endures something that she doesn't necessarily care for in an effort to please me, that does make me happy (and proud and humble, at the same time). So, I guess I am one of those who thinks that a lady should enjoy about 80% of our time together and maybe "suffer" 20% of the time. Michael Honestly this is great in theory and not sure how it works on the male D side but when you ask these male subs,even experienced ones, that's where things get muddled. They literally ALWAYS give the same answers, the generic ones, the ones they think we expect. Here is where communication breaks down easily. After realizing very quickly what was happening and an ability to read minds, I had to actually start a "kink list" print outs with pain levels next to them, Sort of like the ones in the emergency room? Yea, those. Because these guys don't get that knowing limits is the most important part of moving forward and generic answers are not only lazy, but thoughtless. The same way many do not understand that submission is simply that, "to submit", not to force/corner the Domme to REACT to your actions, at least not in my book. I act, you react. This is how things work amazingly for me as a D. Some like brats and that's fine, but I'm all about the power exchange personally. Not to be guided by my sub.

NookieNotes -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/8/2014 7:41:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FieryOpal There are enough hardships in life as it is, without causing unneeded grief - much less suffering - to those we care about and whose happiness should matter the most to us, who then in turn bring us happiness and joy. TRUTH.

bloomswell -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/8/2014 3:04:46 PM)
I used to define myself as a masochist despite hating pain. I'd willingly offer my pain in order to please my tormentor and bring us closer together. Now I'm old I define myself as a kink and try to avoid pain at all costs as I get enough of it from natural causes.

FieryOpal -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/8/2014 6:05:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bloomswell I used to define myself as a masochist despite hating pain. I'd willingly offer my pain in order to please my tormentor and bring us closer together. Now I'm old I define myself as a kink and try to avoid pain at all costs as I get enough of it from natural causes. Now, this is what I don't understand. You say you hate pain, but that you have tolerated it for the sake of your Dominant. So you aren't really a masochistic bottom. Is it that hard to find a non-sadistic Top? You see with me, a sub who calls himself a masochist would not be a plus. I would be hesitant to consider one who wasn't just slightly masochistic, and a pain slut would be a Hard Limit pre-deal breaker, not even making the qualifying rounds (because we would not be suited to one another). I would also question whether any prospective sub who is not admittedly pain-averse was trying to downplay his masochism just to get collared by a Domme. I do hear frequently about non-masochistic subs who endure pain for the sake of their sadistic Dominant. I can't help but speculate on whether they are either in denial about the extent of their mildly masochistic tendencies (as in starting off mentally, say with humiliation, but not as much physically), or else whether a prolonged period of this sort of intensive sensation play will eventually turn them into masochists.[sm=dunno.gif] Btw bloomswell, I don't mean to put you on the spot in addressing your post.

GoddessManko -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/8/2014 7:10:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FieryOpal quote: ORIGINAL: bloomswell I used to define myself as a masochist despite hating pain. I'd willingly offer my pain in order to please my tormentor and bring us closer together. Now I'm old I define myself as a kink and try to avoid pain at all costs as I get enough of it from natural causes. Now, this is what I don't understand. You say you hate pain, but that you have tolerated it for the sake of your Dominant. So you aren't really a masochistic bottom. Is it that hard to find a non-sadistic Top? You see with me, a sub who calls himself a masochist would not be a plus. I would be hesitant to consider one who wasn't just slightly masochistic, and a pain slut would be a Hard Limit pre-deal breaker, not even making the qualifying rounds (because we would not be suited to one another). I would also question whether any prospective sub who is not admittedly pain-averse was trying to downplay his masochism just to get collared by a Domme. I do hear frequently about non-masochistic subs who endure pain for the sake of their sadistic Dominant. I can't help but speculate on whether they are either in denial about the extent of their mildly masochistic tendencies (as in starting off mentally, say with humiliation, but not as much physically), or else whether a prolonged period of this sort of intensive sensation play will eventually turn them into masochists.[sm=dunno.gif] Btw bloomswell, I don't mean to put you on the spot in addressing your post. My perspective differs. I believe it is a testament to a sub as to how far outside comfort zone they are willing to go/ suffer for my sake, no matter the label said sub uses. And LOL!!! bloomswell, witty fellow you. Probably have some interesting stories.

FieryOpal -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/8/2014 7:20:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko My perspective differs. I believe it is a testament to a sub as to how far outside comfort zone they are willing to go/ suffer for my sake, no matter the label said sub uses. Then that would be the fundamental difference between you and me. I don't require others to prove their submission and devotion to me by suffering for my sake. [:)]

GoddessManko -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/8/2014 7:33:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FieryOpal Then that would be the fundamental difference between you and me. I don't require others to prove their submission and devotion to me by suffering for my sake. [:)] Yea, it's not so much required to prove anything. I have no problem fucking a vanilla guy and giving up BDSM altogether. It's just more impressive if his only kink is MY happiness.

FieryOpal -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/8/2014 8:08:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessManko Yea, it's not so much required to prove anything. I have no problem fucking a vanilla guy and giving up BDSM altogether. It's just more impressive if his only kink is MY happiness. A big Amen there. That's the kind of kinky vanilla fetishist I could go for. [;)]

YouName -> RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled (12/9/2014 4:07:50 PM)
Here's a radical thought~ Senseless suffering is not healthy. In relations with a sadist suffering may serve as redemption (based on a better quote I Found somewhere on this site) because the sadist will feel satisfaction. But if it is not redeeming anything I find it senseless* unless it is something the person indeed enjoys in which case it's not suffering. *Exceptions may exist. In V the Movie I Think suffering is used as a fascinating tool to build strength and knowledge.

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