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Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible shortages... - 7/18/2015 10:53:15 AM   
Zonie63


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I was just reading this article about the Colorado River basin and how the drought could lead to shortages and cutbacks which could affect the Southwest:

quote:

The Colorado is suffering from a historic drought that has exposed the region's dependence on a single, vulnerable resource. Nearly 40 million people in seven states depend on the river, a population some forecasts say could nearly double in the next 50 years.

The drought, now in its 16th year, has made one fact brutally clear: The Colorado cannot continue to meet the current urban, agricultural, hydroelectric and recreational demands on it — and the point at which the river will fall short could come sooner than anyone thought.

That is true even after an unusually wet spring in the Rocky Mountains, where runoff feeds the Colorado and its tributaries.

In the decades to come, federal officials say, significant shortages are likely to force water-supply cutbacks in parts of the basin, the first in the more than 90 years that the river has been managed under the 1922 Colorado River Compact.

In Arizona, which would take the steepest cuts, officials are warning that the elaborate conservation measures and infrastructure put in place in the 1980s to guard against shortages will probably not be sufficient. As the drought continues, serious shortages and more severe cutbacks have become more likely.

Farmers who grow cattle feed and cotton in central Arizona could be forced to let fields lie fallow, maybe for good, and cities like Phoenix might have to begin reusing wastewater and even capping urban growth, the region's economic engine.

Here in Yuma, though, there may be no cuts at all. Thanks to the seemingly endless idiosyncrasies of the rules governing the Colorado, much of metropolitan Phoenix could theoretically become a ghost town while Yuma keeps planting lettuce in the desert.


California has been in a drought situation. Las Vegas depends on Lake Mead, which is also reaching low levels. Unless they can build some kind of aqueduct from Lake Superior to Arizona, I might have to move to some area where there's a lot of lakes.

There's not much left of the Colorado by the time it gets into Mexico and empties into the Gulf of California.

Another possibility is desalination, which is still viewed as too cost prohibitive to be a viable solution.

quote:

Desalinated water typically costs about $2,000 an acre foot -- roughly the amount of water a family of five uses in a year. The cost is about double that of water obtained from building a new reservoir or recycling wastewater, according to a 2013 study from the state Department of Water Resources.

And its price tag is at least four times the cost of obtaining "new water" from conservation methods -- such as paying farmers to install drip irrigation, or providing rebates for homeowners to rip out lawns or buy water-efficient toilets.

"We look out and see a vast ocean. It seems obvious," said Heather Cooley, water director for the Pacific Institute, a nonprofit research organization in Oakland. "But it's cost prohibitive for most places in California."

In Carlsbad, two gallons of seawater will be needed to produce each gallon of drinking water. And to remove the salt, the plant will use an enormous amount of energy -- about 38 megawatts, enough to power 28,500 homes -- to force 100 million gallons of seawater a day through a series of filters. The process, known as reverse osmosis, removes salt and other impurities by blasting the water at six times the pressure of a fire hose through membranes with microscopic holes.



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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 11:08:22 AM   
joether


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If the planet's overall temperature rises just three to five more degrees, we will not have to worry about the basin. There will be no more water within it. From biology to physics, scientists can already tell you want is happening there. And what will happen there. Most likely.

This last winder saw the western half of the nation being ten degrees warmer than normal, and the eastern side being ten degrees colder. These do have effects on the year-round weather conditions experienced. In New England, the winter was HELLISH and very cold. In the last two months of summer, the temperatures have been very cool. During the day....

On the western side of America, temperatures have risen, while cloud cover and rain have diminished. You can ignore the Theory of Climate Change all you want. You can argue to your heart's content that it is rubbish. Yet, facts, are facts. As we ignore the science, it only serves to create more problems for us as a nation going forward.

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 11:11:03 AM   
KenDckey


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You can also convert wastewater to potable water. My son with 2 tween children waters his fruit trees (he has 3) using the gray water from his laundry

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 11:18:05 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
You can also convert wastewater to potable water. My son with 2 tween children waters his fruit trees (he has 3) using the gray water from his laundry


Do you have....ANY...idea how much water goes through that area just a few years ago? I'm not talking about the runoff from winter snow melting either!

An the resources to turn waste water, into usable water? Since traditionally most of the usable water was taken from natural resources that are drying up right now? In California, the water reserves can replenish about 20-30% of water used by humans each year. Right now, folks in that state are using 60%. The science shows there is a diminishing level of returns on water each year. The Colorado River Basin's effects are using the same science.

We'll have to increase resources to convert waste water into actual usable water. An that's called 'raising taxes' in the western states. Or do you think all this happens due to some magical effect?





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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 11:29:42 AM   
Zonie63


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Tom Selleck had an interesting solution to the water shortage on his ranch. Just pay to have water trucked in from another district, except...


quote:

The curtain appeared to fall this week on Tom Selleck’s latest role: that of the suspected recipient of unlawful water deliveries.

The Calleguas Municipal Water District had accused the “Magnum P.I.” and “Blue Bloods” star of having truckloads of water from its district delivered to his estate, a violation of local law because his home sits in Hidden Valley, outside Calleguas’ boundaries, according to a complaint filed in Ventura County Superior Court.

To track the deliveries over the last two years — during which Californians have coped with a worsening drought — the district hired a private investigator.

On Wednesday, the water district accepted Selleck’s settlement offer. He agreed to stop transporting water outside Calleguas’ boundaries and to reimburse the cost of the private investigator, about $22,000, district officials said.

But after the settlement was unanimously approved, the actor’s attorney issued a statement, marking the first public comment by one of Selleck’s representatives and an epilogue to a dispute that generated global intrigue.

“Mr. Selleck did not receive any notifications prior to last week stating that he was acting outside of regulations decreed by the county,” attorney Marty Singer said in the statement, which was issued through a publicist. “Mr. Selleck previously paid for all the water that he utilized, which the Calleguas Municipal Water District acknowledged had not been stolen.”


They hired a P.I. to track Magnum P.I.


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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 11:45:20 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
You can also convert wastewater to potable water. My son with 2 tween children waters his fruit trees (he has 3) using the gray water from his laundry


Do you have....ANY...idea how much water goes through that area just a few years ago? I'm not talking about the runoff from winter snow melting either!

An the resources to turn waste water, into usable water? Since traditionally most of the usable water was taken from natural resources that are drying up right now? In California, the water reserves can replenish about 20-30% of water used by humans each year. Right now, folks in that state are using 60%. The science shows there is a diminishing level of returns on water each year. The Colorado River Basin's effects are using the same science.

We'll have to increase resources to convert waste water into actual usable water. An that's called 'raising taxes' in the western states. Or do you think all this happens due to some magical effect?


Oh, I think most of us living here in the desert are aware of the difficulties with water. The use of wastewater and effluent has been going on for decades, although it's only a stopgap measure, just a way to conserve a dwindling resource. Here in Tucson, you won't typically see a lot of houses with green lawns in front. Most houses just have desert landscaping which requires little to no water. In Los Angeles, it's different where they like to have lush green lawns and sprinklers running all the time.

Yes, it's going to probably mean higher taxes and higher water rates. They may have to revise the Colorado River Compact, and that will be a big political football which will certainly involve the federal government.

Even other areas of the country, while not as critical or dire as in the West, could also face relatively drier conditions. Availability of fresh water is actually a global concern. I think Canada has the largest reserves of fresh water, and they'll probably want to jealously guard it from us thirsty Americans.

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 11:45:34 AM   
KenDckey


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Joe You should possibly work at at WWTP for a while. You might learn some things. Here is an article from WEF that shows how good it is. Takes a while, can be expensive, but provides very potable water

http://www.wef.org/publications/page_wet.aspx?id=12884903451&page=news


Secondary and Tertiary treatment of wastewater is appropriate. It can, usually through a reverse osmosis system, it is used as drinking water. I have had some. tasted good. It was provided to us by the California Water Environmental Association (a wastewater professional organization). Here are some good references for your education.

http://news.wef.org/consumer-innovations-contend-to-win-imagine-h2o-competition/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewage_treatment#Treated_sewage_reuse

http://www.eetcorp.com/heepm/RO_AppsE.pdf

You might also enjoy going to WEFTEC http://www.eetcorp.com/heepm/RO_AppsE.pdf

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 11:58:57 AM   
Zonie63


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Interesting graphic on the reverse osmosis process.


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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 12:03:40 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Joe You should possibly work at at WWTP for a while. You might learn some things. Here is an article from WEF that shows how good it is. Takes a while, can be expensive, but provides very potable water

http://www.wef.org/publications/page_wet.aspx?id=12884903451&page=news


Who pays? Those states that fail to to regulate better treatment of their local environment? Or the rest of the country, some of whom have implemented environmental polices?

Try selling the need to raise taxes in those 'red' parts of the political states, while at the same time saying the Theory of Climate Change is a hoax. The GOP/TP have backed themselves into a corner to which they either have to say they've lied to people; or continue to ignore reality beyond a reasonable level.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Secondary and Tertiary treatment of wastewater is appropriate. It can, usually through a reverse osmosis system, it is used as drinking water. I have had some. tasted good. It was provided to us by the California Water Environmental Association (a wastewater professional organization). Here are some good references for your education.

http://news.wef.org/consumer-innovations-contend-to-win-imagine-h2o-competition/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewage_treatment#Treated_sewage_reuse

http://www.eetcorp.com/heepm/RO_AppsE.pdf

You might also enjoy going to WEFTEC http://www.eetcorp.com/heepm/RO_AppsE.pdf


What your talking about (and these articles) is on a micro scale. The Colorado River is a very large area. It feeds water to many things, not just humans. Yet, many of those things keep the land from becoming a barren wasteland. The wastewater treatment efforts will have to be contumely heighten each year. An that will cost more in materials, labor, and other costs. Meanwhile, the effects creating the problems are ignored.

Wouldn't it make sense to understand the problem and deal with it directly, rather than adding bandage after bandage to a symptom? Do we treat the person dying from the flu, or their running nose only?




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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 12:06:37 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Interesting graphic on the reverse osmosis process.



It is the same basic system used for wastewater. SD has done it. Not sure if they are still doing it.

When I worked at a WWTP we recieved approximately 30=40% of the water produced by the water division. The remainder I presume went to greenage and industrial use.

We percolated the water into the ground and pumped it back out at 600 feet for use as agricultural irrigation.

I believe it is the Phoenix Metro area that provides the cooling water after solids removal to the Nuke Power Generation Plant for cooling so that "tap" water wasn't needed. Least that is what they told me at 2 of the plants I visited.

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 12:07:40 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Interesting graphic on the reverse osmosis process.



It is the same basic system used for wastewater. SD has done it. Not sure if they are still doing it.

When I worked at a WWTP we recieved (65 million gallons per day average) approximately 30=40% of the water produced by the water division. The remainder I presume went to greenage and industrial use.

We percolated the water into the ground and pumped it back out at 600 feet for use as agricultural irrigation.

I believe it is the Phoenix Metro area that provides the cooling water after solids removal to the Nuke Power Generation Plant for cooling so that "tap" water wasn't needed. Least that is what they told me at 2 of the plants I visited.


(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 12:13:24 PM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

It is the same basic system used for wastewater. SD has done it. Not sure if they are still doing it.

When I worked at a WWTP we recieved approximately 30=40% of the water produced by the water division. The remainder I presume went to greenage and industrial use.

We percolated the water into the ground and pumped it back out at 600 feet for use as agricultural irrigation.

I believe it is the Phoenix Metro area that provides the cooling water after solids removal to the Nuke Power Generation Plant for cooling so that "tap" water wasn't needed. Least that is what they told me at 2 of the plants I visited.


I know they use treated effluent on most of the golf courses here, and I think they do in Phoenix as well, although I'm not sure. It's not good for drinking; they have signs warning people to that effect. But it's enough to water the grass.

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 12:17:50 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Unless they can build some kind of aqueduct from Lake Superior to Arizona, I might have to move to some area where there's a lot of lakes.

As I understand it, we have treaties with Canada that prevent water from any of the Great Lakes being pumped further than 150 miles from the source. But you're more than welcome to move on up here. It's a pretty nice area.

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 12:24:56 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

It is the same basic system used for wastewater. SD has done it. Not sure if they are still doing it.

When I worked at a WWTP we recieved approximately 30=40% of the water produced by the water division. The remainder I presume went to greenage and industrial use.

We percolated the water into the ground and pumped it back out at 600 feet for use as agricultural irrigation.

I believe it is the Phoenix Metro area that provides the cooling water after solids removal to the Nuke Power Generation Plant for cooling so that "tap" water wasn't needed. Least that is what they told me at 2 of the plants I visited.


I know they use treated effluent on most of the golf courses here, and I think they do in Phoenix as well, although I'm not sure. It's not good for drinking; they have signs warning people to that effect. But it's enough to water the grass.



Golf courses can use secondary treated wastewater. Drinking requires additional treatment.

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 12:26:52 PM   
KenDckey


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BTW the piping to get the "drinking water" back to town from a WWTP is about $1M a mile for the piping. Then you have to add the cost of the lift stations.

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 12:29:39 PM   
joether


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Kendckey,

I wish you to look at the imagine from your post #10.

The process is great, if all things remain the same for the next fifty years. Unfortunately, California and other states on the west coast, will have to add more and more plants to handle the enormous requirements. In seven years from now, the current number of plants will not be able to handle the load. Even if plants were to begin construction today, they STILL wouldn't be able to handle the load eleven years from now. We could build twice as many plants right now, and it wouldn't matter in eighteen years. Assuming the climate doesn't get worst over those eighteen years. What do you think the likelihood of this is?

The science will say 'it'll get worst'. They got the evidence to back it up.

Do you know how much one of these plants cost to build and maintain? To update them? Where does this phantom money come from? I think the other states of the nation will have a justifiable reason to bitch about so many federal tax dollars going to 'fix' a symptom rather than deal with the problem creating the symptom in the first place. Sooner or later, those western states will have to raise taxes again and again. Neither Democrat nor Republican will do so. So there is a cluster-fuck of problems down the road, unless people in those areas decided on a different path. It has no long-term sustainability.

What is the effects of having twice the number of desalination plants in operation and being construction, that would be needed to handle the demand (now and eighteen years into the future), on the environment overall? I don't think any of us on this thread can answer that one without external research by scientists. I suspect things are made worst.



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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 2:35:36 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Kendckey,

I wish you to look at the imagine from your post #10.

The process is great, if all things remain the same for the next fifty years. Unfortunately, California and other states on the west coast, will have to add more and more plants to handle the enormous requirements. In seven years from now, the current number of plants will not be able to handle the load. Even if plants were to begin construction today, they STILL wouldn't be able to handle the load eleven years from now. We could build twice as many plants right now, and it wouldn't matter in eighteen years. Assuming the climate doesn't get worst over those eighteen years. What do you think the likelihood of this is?

The science will say 'it'll get worst'. They got the evidence to back it up.

Do you know how much one of these plants cost to build and maintain? To update them? Where does this phantom money come from? I think the other states of the nation will have a justifiable reason to bitch about so many federal tax dollars going to 'fix' a symptom rather than deal with the problem creating the symptom in the first place. Sooner or later, those western states will have to raise taxes again and again. Neither Democrat nor Republican will do so. So there is a cluster-fuck of problems down the road, unless people in those areas decided on a different path. It has no long-term sustainability.

What is the effects of having twice the number of desalination plants in operation and being construction, that would be needed to handle the demand (now and eighteen years into the future), on the environment overall? I don't think any of us on this thread can answer that one without external research by scientists. I suspect things are made worst.





Yes, I know how much they cost. for an increase from 55mgd to 65 mgd we had to pay approx 365M dollars. And it was a secondary treatment plant. Yes I know how much it costs to operate. I helped work on the budgt. And we reused the methane from the digesters to run our power generation facility to cover approx 25% of our electrical needs. Yes the local water quality control boards set the standards of effluient realease.

No I can't spell. Crap

Yes I know how much a plant can handle and how a storm surge.

Yes I know how it feels to be waist deep in sludge because some contractor idiot broke a 12" main line and we had to immediately clean it up and even though it never got off of the asphalt had to pay a fine because it was released (not the contractor who broke the line). It was a pretty poopy 15 foot guiser flowing from those four 1.1 m gallon digesters.

Yes, I know how they were trying to make grade A sludge so that it could be combined with green waste to create fertilizer for your garden. Yes, I know how they composted the green waste anyway to provide more methane and power for the fcility and possibly sell it on the market.

so yes, I know how much it costs.

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 2:40:46 PM   
KenDckey


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Major rain outside. Supposed to last a couple hours. Flash flooding. Looks like the colorado river will get some much needed rain runoff.

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/18/2015 6:13:32 PM   
KenDckey


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0.82 inches and rising according to weatherbug

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RE: Colorado River Drought in 16th year; possible short... - 7/19/2015 2:01:09 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
0.82 inches and rising according to weatherbug


I'm not familiar with that region's water supply and usage as I am for New England (go figure I live there). But I do know each area needs 'x' amount of water in the year to keep the environment (and environmental factors) constant. We dont get enough snow in the winter, rain the spring and good heat in the summer; there are a number of negative effects that can take place. We in the six states feel it in each season depending on circumstances.

While 0.82 inches might be awesome for Death Valley, its the death of the cranberry industry in Maine! So the question I have, is, were does the amount of rainfall stand for the current year in that area to-date? Has the area gain more, less, or about the same needed for the area?

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