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RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/17/2015 1:28:28 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Personally I am in favor of land mines. Lots of Landmines. say ohhhhhhh 10,000 per football sized area or something like that. All laid out nicley just behind the wall on our side. Then a second wall. Have the area in between patrolled by very hungry dogs or wolves.

Actually there has already been a wall like this, so you can save on design costs too. Just ask the Russians for the master plan for the Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain. I'm sure they will be happy to accommodate your needs. They might even throw in a few experienced builders if you ask them nicely ....

One big difference?

The Russians built their wall to keep their own citizens in..
citizens that were legal citizens of Russia...whether they wanted to be or not. It wasn't built to keep a horde of people, anxious for freedom...AND benefits...out.

ha... how do you know that this wall isnt to keep US citizens in? The fact is that there is a "wall" now, simply trying to cross the border legally is such a pain in the arse with no assurance that you will be allowed in/out.. You have no rights at the border, they can take all your electronic devices and access the info on them, including your emails, etc.. ("Your papers, pleece! Step ziss vay! Ve heff som qvestions!") If you are found lying about even the most minor thing they can send you back to your country... And even if you have a Visa you can be turned away as the true final authority on if you get in/out or not is the Border agent..

Even in the US you can be subject to the 100 mile border search procedure, intimidation, etc.. and fyi, 2/3rds of America lives in that 100 mile from the border zone.. 2/3rds!!! OMG!!!

"Roughly two-thirds of the United States' population, about 200 million people, lives within the 100-mile zone that an outdated federal regulation defines as the border zone—that is, within 100 miles of a U.S. land or coastal border."

https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-governments-100-mile-border-zone-map

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/17/2015 1:33:13 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

I know, you guys had great difficulty with the Afford Card Act's 2409 pages. And the 159 page treaty with Iran. This 'plan' is six pages long. Hopefully you guys can handle this 'tough' reading assignment for discussion....

If Trump wins, all i can say is this frickin' wall will cost ya as much as your stupid, illegal Iraq war did.. and that is just one of his "hair-brained" ideas.. I am sure as the Presidents before him, he will be very good at spending taxpayer dollars with very little to show for it in return..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to joether)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/17/2015 7:54:29 PM

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Joined: 12/14/2005
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Trump driving migrant debate among GOP field

>Drastic ideas once at the fringe gain traction, which could mean an even bigger headache for Republican leaders desperate to attract more Latino voters.<

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/with-trumps-rise-hard-line-immigration-ideas-take-hold-in-gop/2015/08/17/85dbbf3e-4506-11e5-846d-02792f854297_story.html?hpid=z1

At least he doesn't have the lunatic idea of LAND MINES. What's next, knock down the Statue of Liberty and melt it down for scrap metal?

The national election is over, I suppose that's the good news.

(in reply to joether)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/17/2015 8:54:53 PM

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Trump driving migrant debate among GOP field

>Drastic ideas once at the fringe gain traction, which could mean an even bigger headache for Republican leaders desperate to attract more Latino voters.<

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/with-trumps-rise-hard-line-immigration-ideas-take-hold-in-gop/2015/08/17/85dbbf3e-4506-11e5-846d-02792f854297_story.html?hpid=z1

At least he doesn't have the lunatic idea of LAND MINES. What's next, knock down the Statue of Liberty and melt it down for scrap metal?

The national election is over, I suppose that's the good news.

The statue of Liberty, Ellis Island, was used to SCREEN legal immigrants

The illegals that Obama is flooding the states with, that are invading just as any other enemy might have no filter

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/17/2015 9:08:33 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Trump driving migrant debate among GOP field

>Drastic ideas once at the fringe gain traction, which could mean an even bigger headache for Republican leaders desperate to attract more Latino voters.<

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/with-trumps-rise-hard-line-immigration-ideas-take-hold-in-gop/2015/08/17/85dbbf3e-4506-11e5-846d-02792f854297_story.html?hpid=z1

At least he doesn't have the lunatic idea of LAND MINES. What's next, knock down the Statue of Liberty and melt it down for scrap metal?

The national election is over, I suppose that's the good news.

Not really, if there is any justice Hillary will be indicted by the time the primaries start.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/17/2015 9:36:08 PM

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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Personally I am in favor of land mines. Lots of Landmines. say ohhhhhhh 10,000 per football sized area or something like that. All laid out nicley just behind the wall on our side. Then a second wall. Have the area in between patrolled by very hungry dogs or wolves.

Actually there has already been a wall like this, so you can save on design costs too. Just ask the Russians for the master plan for the Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain. I'm sure they will be happy to accommodate your needs. They might even throw in a few experienced builders if you ask them nicely ....

I spent 4 years on both sides of it. It actually worked pretty well. Not many got past and most of those before it was completed.

Cost of building and stocking it would be covered by the decrease in cost in various govt spending programs for them.

If you are as familiar with the Iron Curtain as you claim to be (and I've no reason to doubt your claim) then you will remember the many people who died trying to make it to freedom. Not to mention the perfect propaganda material it provided for a couple of decades during the Cold War. Dismantling the Wall became the symbol of victory over Soviet style dictatorship in Eastern Europe. The Wall's fall is pretty much the point where that awful system of government ended - historically, politically as well as symbolically.

The image of a facsimile Wall running along the entirety of the Mexico-US border is chilling. Who knows how large the eventual death toll will be? A facsimile Wall, adorned with the corpses of dead latinos would be incompatible with American values (as I understand them) and mark the death of the notion that the USA is the land of the free.

It is horrifying that anyone could propose such a grotesque 'solution' to any problem.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/17/2015 9:39:54 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to KenDckey)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/17/2015 9:44:01 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Personally I am in favor of land mines. Lots of Landmines. say ohhhhhhh 10,000 per football sized area or something like that. All laid out nicley just behind the wall on our side. Then a second wall. Have the area in between patrolled by very hungry dogs or wolves.

Actually there has already been a wall like this, so you can save on design costs too. Just ask the Russians for the master plan for the Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain. I'm sure they will be happy to accommodate your needs. They might even throw in a few experienced builders if you ask them nicely ....

I spent 4 years on both sides of it. It actually worked pretty well. Not many got past and most of those before it was completed.

Cost of building and stocking it would be covered by the decrease in cost in various govt spending programs for them.

If you are as familiar with the Iron Curtain as you claim to be (and I've no reason to doubt your claim) then you will remember the many people who died trying to make it to freedom. Not to mention the perfect propaganda material it provided for a couple of decades during the Cold War. Dismantling the Wall became the symbol of victory over Soviet style dictatorship in Eastern Europe. The Wall's fall is pretty much the point where that awful system of government ended - historically, politically as well as symbolically.

The image of a facsimile Wall running along the entirety of the Mexico-US border is chilling. Who knows how large the eventual death toll will be? A facsimile Wall, adorned with the corpses of dead latinos would be incompatible with American values (as I understand them) and mark the death of the notion that the USA is the land of the free.

It is horrifying that anyone could propose such a grotesque 'solution' to any problem.

You clearly don't quite get the difference between a "wall" to keep people in and one to keep people out.
So there is no difference between castle walls and prison walls?

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/17/2015 9:47:46 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/17/2015 10:08:37 PM

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I do get the difference.

I also get that any such nuances will quickly disappear in the propaganda that the US's enemies will make with a facsimile Iron Curtain decorating the Mexican border. Look at the furore over, and the damage to the US's reputation and international standing that followed the disclosure of abuses in Abu Graibh prison as a guide to what discussion of a 'Mexican Wall' will look and sound like.

One would have to be naive in the extreme to believe that discussion of a 'Mexican Wall' will prove to be any different.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/17/2015 10:13:57 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/17/2015 10:15:45 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I do the difference.

I also get that any such nuances will quickly disappear in the propaganda that the US's enemies will make with a facsimile Iron Curtain decorating the Mexican border. Look at the furore over the abuses in Abu Graigh prison as a guide to what discussion of a 'Mexican Wall' will look and sound like.

One would have to be naive in the extreme to believe otherwise.

So our right to defend ourselves is negated by the possibility that you and our enemies will talk bad about us. Far better to let them destroy our society isn't it. I realize that you wouldn't see the destruction of American society as that big a loss. To bad we don't have a moat filled with sharks like you do.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/17/2015 10:56:45 PM

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Joined: 8/17/2015
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quote:

The Russians built their wall to keep their own citizens in..
citizens that were legal citizens of Russia...whether they wanted to be or not.

Wasn't the wall built because Russia,being a socialist country, had footed the bill for the education of the east Germans (not Russian citizens but residents of a conquered nation) who were crossing the border into west Germany to accept jobs offered by U.S. companies and thus skipping out on their obligations to the state for their education?
Russia obviously felt that they had a claim on anything and everything that was in or on their section of the conquered nation...including intellectual talent.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 12:53:15 AM

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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Enforcement and Penalty policies (that's the underpinning of the 1996 Republican law) have never worked. It's insane to double down on failed, big government policies that will drain the US treasury of funds better spent elsewhere.
The Wall idea is beyond stupid.

Yet, the 2006 Law for a border fence passed both House and Senate easily. Yes, both the House and Senate held GOP majorities, but there were D's that voted in favor, too.

64 Democrat Representatives voted in favor.

Passed the Senate 80-19-1. Would have been 80-20 had Kennedy voted.

Congressional Makeup

There were 201 Democrat Representatives, and 64 voted in favor. There were 230 GOP Representatives, and 6 voted opposed. Had it been such a terrible idea, wouldn't the Democrats have voted No, as a group? That would have made the bill's passage a whole lot closer.

There were 55 GOP Senators and 44 Democrat Senators (the lone Independent caucused with the Democrats). How does one get 80 votes without a healthy slice of Democrats? What we find, in fact, is that there was one Republican and one Independent that voted against the bill, meaning that 26 of 44 Democrats supported the bill (including Obama, Biden, and Hillary Clinton). My calculator tells me that's a majority of Democrats voting in favor.

But, the votes were held late September in a mid-term election cycle, so it was a political vote, right? Be careful how you answer that. If you claim it was nothing more than a political vote, then you're demonstrating you're okay with Democrat elected Congressional representatives playing politics.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 1:52:30 AM

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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I do the difference.

I also get that any such nuances will quickly disappear in the propaganda that the US's enemies will make with a facsimile Iron Curtain decorating the Mexican border. Look at the furore over the abuses in Abu Graigh prison as a guide to what discussion of a 'Mexican Wall' will look and sound like.

One would have to be naive in the extreme to believe otherwise.

So our right to defend ourselves is negated by the possibility that you and our enemies will talk bad about us. Far better to let them destroy our society isn't it. I realize that you wouldn't see the destruction of American society as that big a loss. To bad we don't have a moat filled with sharks like you do.

This is a ridiculous assertion. It is built entirely on the self evidently false equation that not building a wall on the Mexican border equals giving up the right to self defence. Absurd.

I'm simply pointing out the inevitable consequences of building an Iron Curtain type wall along the border as suggested by KenDickey. If you don't like the consequences don't build the wall. Simples isn't it?

The notion that building a wall along the border is the only available option is as silly as it sounds. There are lots of other more humane ways of addressing the issue. Far better for all concerned that discussion addresses those options than building an Iron Curtain type wall.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/18/2015 1:55:16 AM >

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RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 2:29:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Well I can't speak for anyone else but for me, it's because I have read enough of your posts to know they are filled with bullshit accusations about people you have never met. Several stupid statements like "Why not a wall separating Canada from us?", really? you don't understand why we might be more concerned with illegals from the south? and "Since I do not see many illegal immigrants making their way to places like Honolulu, Fairbanks, and Detroit." Obviously you don't know squat about Detroit. Added to the usual "repubs/tp" are evil and I really don't see the point.

Bullshit, eh? If my posts are full of bullshit, please show me where in the OP of this thread. Since 100% of it was taken directly from two sources: Mr. Trump and myself. No, what you have fault with is that you do not have one clue how to counter....ANYTHING....I stated intelligently. That's right, you used your 'post power' to attack me, rather than counter any of the arguments I was putting forth. People do that when they dont have anything intelligent or practical to rebuttal with.

You and many other conservatives on here have attacked me in the past. Not one of you know me, but think you can attack. Its 'OK' for you to do it to me, but if I do it to you, its not 'OK'? There's a word in the English language that describes you: HYPOCRITE! Can't take any responsibility for it, can you? Maybe if you used that lump three feet above your ass for something useful, MAYBE, you might approach having a real argument....

That you try to defend the GOP/TP given the piles of crap they have created on their watches is amusing. That you still as of yet can create one solid argument. I have to had it to Mr. Trump, he's doing a great jump of making people like you look like morons. You can't talk about his plan, nor my arguments of the plan. Nope, you can only muster attacking me directly. What's wrong thishereboi, is that the limit of your intellect?

(in reply to thishereboi)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 2:46:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
If you claim it was nothing more than a political vote, then you're demonstrating you're okay with Democrat elected Congressional representatives playing politics.

Maybe what has to happen is for both political 'sides' to get together and agree on a compromise. Something both parties should have done five years ago. That's right, what major piece of legislation was put into law in 2010? The Affordable Care Act. Now try to keep up here....

Rather than doing anything and everything to torpedo the ACA like Republicans and conservatives did; maybe they should have spent their limited resources else where. They develop a border plan that they like. They bring it forth to the Democrats and liberals. What happens?

The Democrats and liberals scoff at it, right?

To which the GOP and its supporters state 'Listen, you want a good healthcare bill? We get a good border plan. That's the trade off. You get something you want; we get something we want. We will not oppose your healthcare bill if you do not oppose our border plan. We would like to have some say in the final healthcare bill and we are willing to allow you to have some say in the final border bill. Everyone goes home getting something they want.

That didn't happen, because the GOP has become the 'Party of Dumb' for some strange reason. They had opportunity and they pissed it away. And they are doing it again....

They could come forward and say "Hey, you guys think the ACA has some problems? That you tried certain things and while it sounded great on the drawing board, it doesn't work so well in real life. How about you make some changes to it, and we'll make some on the border. We'll tie the two concepts under one bill, and vote. Everyone gets something."

Conservatives, DS, have it in their mind that this is a football game. One side has to totally win and the other side has to totally lose. There can be no compromise nor deal. Even though that's how the nation has operated for over two hundred and thirty years! I'm baffled why conservatives would try the 'its our way or the highway' mentality. That's not being very conservative. Being conservative would mean 'hey, this compromising stuff has worked for the most part in this nation; lets not change the concept'. Or maybe I'm thinking on the 'old school' conservative and not this new pseudo form of conservatives?

That wall, the ICE folks in place, and less illegal immigrants five years ago, if the GOP and conservatives wanted it. They didn't want it then, and do not appear to want it now. The problem is they are not making any kind of deal with Democrats and liberals. Sort of the whole point of the thread. What is 'in it' for the liberal to 'go along' with Mr. Trump's plan? As there isn't much.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 6:53:09 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I do the difference.

I also get that any such nuances will quickly disappear in the propaganda that the US's enemies will make with a facsimile Iron Curtain decorating the Mexican border. Look at the furore over the abuses in Abu Graigh prison as a guide to what discussion of a 'Mexican Wall' will look and sound like.

One would have to be naive in the extreme to believe otherwise.

So our right to defend ourselves is negated by the possibility that you and our enemies will talk bad about us. Far better to let them destroy our society isn't it. I realize that you wouldn't see the destruction of American society as that big a loss. To bad we don't have a moat filled with sharks like you do.

This is a ridiculous assertion. It is built entirely on the self evidently false equation that not building a wall on the Mexican border equals giving up the right to self defence. Absurd.

I'm simply pointing out the inevitable consequences of building an Iron Curtain type wall along the border as suggested by KenDickey. If you don't like the consequences don't build the wall. Simples isn't it?

The notion that building a wall along the border is the only available option is as silly as it sounds. There are lots of other more humane ways of addressing the issue. Far better for all concerned that discussion addresses those options than building an Iron Curtain type wall.

Let's hear it then...a humane solution that addresses the concerns of those who wish to grant access to a country that so many wish to come to but which also addresses the concerns of those who do not believe in porous borders and believe that people seeking access must do so legally.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 7:50:07 AM

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

In the article I linked to above Reuters called Trump's support for the enforcement of immigration laws and securing our borders "provocative"

Which U.S. laws does Mr. Trumph wish to have the government enforce? The misdemeanors committed by the illegal aliens or the felonies committed by those who employ them?

quote:

Thats a good indicator of how warped leftists and the far left media have become. In their world, laws that they do not agree with are to be ignored and ridiculed.

How many employers of illegal aliens has Mr. Obama had prosecuted? How many his predecessor or his or any who came before?

quote:

Obamas refusal to enforce the laws is why the problem has grown to epidemic proportions. Why should illegal aliens respect our laws if the president does not bother to enforce them. Rather than demonstrating leadership on this issue and enforcing our laws as he swore to do, Obama is the Pied Piper leading the parade of criminals into this country.

The parade of criminals/felons is clearly marked as being domestic and not imported.

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 7:55:32 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

The Russians built their wall to keep their own citizens in..
citizens that were legal citizens of Russia...whether they wanted to be or not.

Wasn't the wall built because Russia,being a socialist country, had footed the bill for the education of the east Germans (not Russian citizens but residents of a conquered nation) who were crossing the border into west Germany to accept jobs offered by U.S. companies and thus skipping out on their obligations to the state for their education?
Russia obviously felt that they had a claim on anything and everything that was in or on their section of the conquered nation...including intellectual talent.

People didn't risk machine gun fire for better jobs.
Are you sure it was the U S military you were in.
And again, who's sock are you?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Thegunnysez)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 8:01:17 AM

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Joined: 8/17/2015
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quote:

People didn't risk machine gun fire for better jobs.

Once the machine guns and mines and barricades were in place very few took the chance. The wall was quite effective at restricting unauthorized border crossings. You might want to check to see how many of the exit visas were denied during the existence of the wall.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 8:06:37 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

People didn't risk machine gun fire for better jobs.

Once the machine guns and mines and barricades were in place very few took the chance. The wall was quite effective at restricting unauthorized border crossings. You might want to check to see how many of the exit visas were denied during the existence of the wall.

Very few made it, but for some time after it was built they tried.
Are you actually trying to claim that building the wall was a reasonable act by the Russians? If so how can you claim that a castle wall is wrong (border security) but prison walls are just fine (Berlin).

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Thegunnysez)

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 8:19:51 AM

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Joined: 8/17/2015
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quote:

Very few made it, but for some time after it was built they tried.

Which was my point...The wall was was successful in requiring all who wished to leave left by the appropriate protocol. Would you hazard a guess as to what the consequences would be if a U.S. citizen left this country through an inappropriate protocol and then tried to return through an appropriate one?

quote:

Are you actually trying to claim that building the wall was a reasonable act by the Russians?

Absolutely...it is their country they can do with it as they choose. Keeping in mind that the Germans were responsible for the deaths of more than 25 million Soviets so what index of kindness should the Soviets have exhibited towards these murdering thugs?

quote:

If so how can you claim that a castle wall is wrong (border security) but prison walls are just fine (Berlin).

I have not made that claim.
I do believe that there are more cost effective ways to deal with the problem of illegal aliens. That if the sanctions against the employers were enforced the illegals would go home on their own nickle and the treasury would be billions of dollars the better for it via the fines and civil forfeitures from the employers of illegal aliens.

(in reply to BamaD)

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