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RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 7:49:58 AM

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ORIGINAL: bounty44

historic arguments aside, is one of the best present reasons to have weapons is because the bad guys have them and "gun free" zones are liberal fantasies as well as killers' fish in a barrel?

"Armed Ohio Teachers Trained to Cut 'Active Shooter' Killing Time"

quote:

Roughly 40 school districts in Ohio allow teachers to pack concealed guns in the classroom, and more and more of them are getting trained on how to stop an "active shooter."

"Safety of our kids should not be a controversial issue. This is not about guns," Jim Irvine, of FASTERsaveslives.org and the Buckeye Firearms Foundation, told Fox News.

"For nearly 60 years, not one student has died from a fire. That is due to a redundant, overlapping approach to safety. We should be copying that same method for incidents of violence in our schools. You need something that is effective. Show us another method and we would invest in it..."

Superintendent John Scheu, of a 3,500-student school district in Sidney, Ohio, said his district adopted a new policy allowing concealed-carry in the wake of the attack in Newtown, Connecticut, where a gunman killed 20 young children and six staff at Sandy Hook Elementary.

"It made us as a school district look at the system we had in place to keep our children safe," said Scheu. "We quickly learned that we didn’t have anything in place. We decided to be pro-active."

http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/armed-ohio-teachers-active/2015/11/17/id/702438/

but then this:

•Gun Owners Split on Concealed Weapons in Schools

Before you let your abject ignorance allow your head any deeper access to your tailpipe you might want to acquaint yourself with my position on private gun ownership. I became a life member of the nra while you were still wearing three corner pants and shitting yellow.

(in reply to bounty44)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 11:40:48 AM

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: bounty44

historic arguments aside, is one of the best present reasons to have weapons is because the bad guys have them and "gun free" zones are liberal fantasies as well as killers' fish in a barrel?

"Armed Ohio Teachers Trained to Cut 'Active Shooter' Killing Time"

quote:

Roughly 40 school districts in Ohio allow teachers to pack concealed guns in the classroom, and more and more of them are getting trained on how to stop an "active shooter."

"Safety of our kids should not be a controversial issue. This is not about guns," Jim Irvine, of FASTERsaveslives.org and the Buckeye Firearms Foundation, told Fox News.

"For nearly 60 years, not one student has died from a fire. That is due to a redundant, overlapping approach to safety. We should be copying that same method for incidents of violence in our schools. You need something that is effective. Show us another method and we would invest in it..."

Superintendent John Scheu, of a 3,500-student school district in Sidney, Ohio, said his district adopted a new policy allowing concealed-carry in the wake of the attack in Newtown, Connecticut, where a gunman killed 20 young children and six staff at Sandy Hook Elementary.

"It made us as a school district look at the system we had in place to keep our children safe," said Scheu. "We quickly learned that we didn’t have anything in place. We decided to be pro-active."

http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/armed-ohio-teachers-active/2015/11/17/id/702438/

but then this:

•Gun Owners Split on Concealed Weapons in Schools

Before you let your abject ignorance allow your head any deeper access to your tailpipe you might want to acquaint yourself with my position on private gun ownership. I became a life member of the nra while you were still wearing three corner pants and shitting yellow.

So you were of the 'NRA' that was....NOT....a diabolical organization, hell bent, on pushing the gun industries profits over sensible controls and needs of the people in the nation? You were a member before it became a corrupted entity that spewed forth misinformation, lies, and fabrications to push less controls through government. That way criminals, terrorists and evil doers had a......much.....easier time obtaining firearms to prey upon the good citizenry. That citizenry, now more often terrorized, feels the need to obtain firearms in a belief it will protect them from harm; even though as studies show, places them in even more dangerous territory in other areas. An who gains from all that fear and evil? The gun industry. Who pays the NRA to keep promoting fear, ignorance, and mindless rage at the government and fellow US Citizens.

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 12:02:06 PM

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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So you were of the 'NRA' that was....NOT....a diabolical organization,

I have been a member of the nra for a long time. When I joined it was common for the nra to gift the sitting president with membership.
On more than one occasion I have mentioned to wayne that he has his head up his ass.

hell bent, on pushing the gun industries profits over sensible controls and needs of the people in the nation? You were a member before it became a corrupted entity that spewed forth misinformation, lies, and fabrications to push less controls through government. That way criminals, terrorists and evil doers had a......much.....easier time obtaining firearms to prey upon the good citizenry.

I'm pretty sure that when I joined it was illegal for most people to own an automatic.
I am pretty sure that when I joined it was illegal for most people to own a silencer.
I am pretty sure that when I joined it was illegal for the mentally incompetant to own a gun.
I am pretty sure that when I joined it was illegal for a minor to purchase a gun in his own right.
I am pretty sure that when I joined it was illegal to make a straw purchase.
I am pretty sure that when I joined it was illegal to use a firearm in the commission of a felony.
I am pretty sure that when I joined it was illegal for a felon to buy or posses a gun.
I am pretty sure that when I joined it was illegal to issue a hunting license to one who had not compleated a hunter safety course.
So just what has changed in the past fifty or sixty years?

(in reply to joether)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 3:18:10 PM

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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I find it absofuckinglutely hilarious that every antigun idiot with access to a keyboard seems to think the NRA speaks for all gun owners.

Add to that the simple fact that these same idiots insist that one particular type of weapon, the "assault weapon" is used in most gun crimes, completely ignorant of the fact that pistols routinely come with magazines capable of holding ten rounds, and a pistol is much faster to bring onto target than a rifle.

Reality, rifles of any kind are used in less than 2 percent of gun crimes, thus a ban on any style rifle would have little impact on the problem.

Reality, the majority of rifles sold in the US are not "assault rifles."

Reality, strict gun control laws did not and could not have prevented what happened in Paris, and would have similar effect in stopping a similar act in the US.

And the last bit of sobering news for the antigun crowd, any machine shop with a CNC machine can churn out the parts to make the upper and lower receivers and then use a cad-cam machine to churn out all the nice little parts to make a fully functional fully automatic weapon in large numbers.

FYI, CNC machines with this ability start as low as $2500.

Barrels and all the other parts can be made in just about any standard machine shop, with the addition of a couple of pieces of equipment.

So, after you guys restrict guns, what will you do next, restrict the purchase of the tools to make them?

Oh, and for the fans of the venerable AK series, there is an American firm with license now making receiver assemblies out of solid billet aluminum, with vastly improved operation.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 3:56:58 PM

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I find it absofuckinglutely hilarious that every antigun idiot with access to a keyboard seems to think the NRA speaks for all gun owners.

For myself the nra provides technical data that is difficult to scrounge off of the net.

Add to that the simple fact that these same idiots insist that one particular type of weapon, the "assault weapon" is used in most gun crimes, completely ignorant of the fact that pistols routinely come with magazines capable of holding ten rounds, and a pistol is much faster to bring onto target than a rifle.

Yes in general but the fbi found themselves in a pickle when they went after a couple of professionals armed with mini 14's that shredded their body armor

Reality, rifles of any kind are used in less than 2 percent of gun crimes, thus a ban on any style rifle would have little impact on the problem.

Let us not forget ol charlie whitman.

Reality, the majority of rifles sold in the US are not "assault rifles."

Reality, strict gun control laws did not and could not have prevented what happened in Paris, and would have similar effect in stopping a similar act in the US.

And the last bit of sobering news for the antigun crowd, any machine shop with a CNC machine can churn out the parts to make the upper and lower receivers and then use a cad-cam machine to churn out all the nice little parts to make a fully functional fully automatic weapon in large numbers.

Zip guns and spoke guns were all the rage when I was in the 8th grade. All one needed was a pair of pliers and a pair of vice grips.

FYI, CNC machines with this ability start as low as $2500.

Barrels and all the other parts can be made in just about any standard machine shop, with the addition of a couple of pieces of equipment.

So, after you guys restrict guns, what will you do next, restrict the purchase of the tools to make them?

Oh, and for the fans of the venerable AK series, there is an American firm with license now making receiver assemblies out of solid billet aluminum, with vastly improved operation.

A356 is just fine for wheels but I am going to stick with 4140 for anything that needs to hold 50k psi

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 4:40:32 PM

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

So you were of the 'NRA' that was....NOT....a diabolical organization, hell bent, on pushing the gun industries profits over sensible controls and needs of the people in the nation? You were a member before it became a corrupted entity that spewed forth misinformation, lies, and fabrications to push less controls through government. That way criminals, terrorists and evil doers had a......much.....easier time obtaining firearms to prey upon the good citizenry. That citizenry, now more often terrorized, feels the need to obtain firearms in a belief it will protect them from harm; even though as studies show, places them in even more dangerous territory in other areas. An who gains from all that fear and evil? The gun industry. Who pays the NRA to keep promoting fear, ignorance, and mindless rage at the government and fellow US Citizens.

You're the one promoting fear and ignorance. And ya wan'a talk about mindless rage, the NRA is a "diabolical organization" ?? Really Birdbrain ?? You're the "corrupted entity" spewing "forth misinformation, lies and fabrications". 1) The NRA is not a shill for the gun industry. 2) The NRA pushes back against the government seeking more controls. 3) I know in your neat little utopian mind you think some kind of gun control will fix the gun violence problem but in reality, "criminals, terrorists and evil doers" will always have an easy time, (at least in this country with an estimated in excess of 300 million firearms already in private hands, not to mention all the military hardware stockpiled all over the world, not to mention the fact that with technology as it is today people and criminals alike can simply fabricate guns easily bypassing any law that you can come up with in that Birdbrain head of yours) obtaining firearms to prey upon the good citizenry. Get back on your meds.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to joether)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 5:00:11 PM

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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It is the nra that is promoting fear and ignorance it has become clearly political. I have kept all of my old issues of the ririfleman. I have twenty five or more years where not a word is said about any political point of view. The cover of the magazine was always a framabel picture of some fine piece of the gunmakers art. Then in the 80's it started becoming more and more political claiming that the left was going to take your freedom...that the left hates amerika and all of that shit.
It got so bad that president bush the elder resigned his membership in a most public manner.

Letter of Resignation Sent By Bush to Rifle Association

May 3, 1995

Dear Mr. Washington,

I was outraged when, even in the wake of the Oklahoma City tragedy, Mr. Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of N.R.A., defended his attack on federal agents as "jack-booted thugs." To attack Secret Service agents or A.T.F. people or any government law enforcement people as "wearing Nazi bucket helmets and black storm trooper uniforms" wanting to "attack law abiding citizens" is a vicious slander on good people.

Al Whicher, who served on my [ United States Secret Service ] detail when I was Vice President and President, was killed in Oklahoma City. He was no Nazi. He was a kind man, a loving parent, a man dedicated to serving his country -- and serve it well he did.

In 1993, I attended the wake for A.T.F. agent Steve Willis, another dedicated officer who did his duty. I can assure you that this honorable man, killed by weird cultists, was no Nazi.

John Magaw, who used to head the U.S.S.S. and now heads A.T.F., is one of the most principled, decent men I have ever known. He would be the last to condone the kind of illegal behavior your ugly letter charges. The same is true for the F.B.I.'s able Director Louis Freeh. I appointed Mr. Freeh to the Federal Bench. His integrity and honor are beyond question.

Both John Magaw and Judge Freeh were in office when I was President. They both now serve in the current administration. They both have badges. Neither of them would ever give the government's "go ahead to harass, intimidate, even murder law abiding citizens." (Your words)

I am a gun owner and an avid hunter. Over the years I have agreed with most of N.R.A.'s objectives, particularly your educational and training efforts, and your fundamental stance in favor of owning guns.

However, your broadside against Federal agents deeply offends my own sense of decency and honor; and it offends my concept of service to country. It indirectly slanders a wide array of government law enforcement officials, who are out there, day and night, laying their lives on the line for all of us.

You have not repudiated Mr. LaPierre's unwarranted attack. Therefore, I resign as a Life Member of N.R.A., said resignation to be effective upon your receipt of this letter. Please remove my name from your membership list.

Sincerely, [ signed ]

George Bush

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 11/17/2015 5:03:51 PM >

(in reply to lovmuffin)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 5:16:41 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

So you were of the 'NRA' that was....NOT....a diabolical organization, hell bent, on pushing the gun industries profits over sensible controls and needs of the people in the nation? You were a member before it became a corrupted entity that spewed forth misinformation, lies, and fabrications to push less controls through government. That way criminals, terrorists and evil doers had a......much.....easier time obtaining firearms to prey upon the good citizenry. That citizenry, now more often terrorized, feels the need to obtain firearms in a belief it will protect them from harm; even though as studies show, places them in even more dangerous territory in other areas. An who gains from all that fear and evil? The gun industry. Who pays the NRA to keep promoting fear, ignorance, and mindless rage at the government and fellow US Citizens.

You're the one promoting fear and ignorance. And ya wan'a talk about mindless rage, the NRA is a "diabolical organization" ?? Really Birdbrain ?? You're the "corrupted entity" spewing "forth misinformation, lies and fabrications". 1) The NRA is not a shill for the gun industry. 2) The NRA pushes back against the government seeking more controls. 3) I know in your neat little utopian mind you think some kind of gun control will fix the gun violence problem but in reality, "criminals, terrorists and evil doers" will always have an easy time, (at least in this country with an estimated in excess of 300 million firearms already in private hands, not to mention all the military hardware stockpiled all over the world, not to mention the fact that with technology as it is today people and criminals alike can simply fabricate guns easily bypassing any law that you can come up with in that Birdbrain head of yours) obtaining firearms to prey upon the good citizenry. Get back on your meds.

Yesterday an armory was broken into and 18 weapons were stolen, 8 handguns and 10 assault rifles. Unless you disarm the guard no gun law would affect this. BTW it happened in the great state of.......MA

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 6:58:39 PM

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thompsons

It is the nra that is promoting fear and ignorance it has become clearly political. I have kept all of my old issues of the ririfleman. I have twenty five or more years where not a word is said about any political point of view. The cover of the magazine was always a framabel picture of some fine piece of the gunmakers art. Then in the 80's it started becoming more and more political claiming that the left was going to take your freedom...that the left hates amerika and all of that shit.
It got so bad that president bush the elder resigned his membership in a most public manner.

I'm aware of GHWB's public resignation. I have no use for an asshole who would brazenly break a solemn promise, not only on frderal gun control but "read my lips" and all the rest of it. Fuck GHWB, fuck GW on other grounds and fuck that other Bush too while I'm at it. I thought the NRA started becoming political after 1968 when there were calls for handgun control but you seem to know everything so the 1980's, whatever. I've never heard about them saying the left hates America, just the left hates your guns, your freedom / to own a gun and they want to take your guns. It seems evident to me. Just like you I like The American Rifleman magazine, the firearms expertise, the hats, decals and all the rest of it but if they weren't defending the second Amendment I would not support them.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 7:03:00 PM

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Yesterday an armory was broken into and 18 weapons were stolen, 8 handguns and 10 assault rifles. Unless you disarm the guard no gun law would affect this. BTW it happened in the great state of.......MA

Oh the irony

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to lovmuffin)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 7:23:32 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thompsons

It is the nra that is promoting fear and ignorance it has become clearly political. I have kept all of my old issues of the ririfleman. I have twenty five or more years where not a word is said about any political point of view. The cover of the magazine was always a framabel picture of some fine piece of the gunmakers art. Then in the 80's it started becoming more and more political claiming that the left was going to take your freedom...that the left hates amerika and all of that shit.
It got so bad that president bush the elder resigned his membership in a most public manner.

I'm aware of GHWB's public resignation. I have no use for an asshole who would brazenly break a solemn promise, not only on frderal gun control but "read my lips" and all the rest of it. Fuck GHWB, fuck GW on other grounds and fuck that other Bush too while I'm at it. I thought the NRA started becoming political after 1968 when there were calls for handgun control but you seem to know everything so the 1980's, whatever. I've never heard about them saying the left hates America, just the left hates your guns, your freedom / to own a gun and they want to take your guns. It seems evident to me. Just like you I like The American Rifleman magazine, the firearms expertise, the hats, decals and all the rest of it but if they weren't defending the second Amendment I would not support them.

The NRA became political when the left started trying to legislate guns out of peoples hands. It did not take a more political stance in a vacum starting the fight as Joe would have us believe. The eason they stated fighting gun control was the people who were pushing it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 7:27:10 PM

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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The NRA became political when the left started trying to legislate guns out of peoples hands. It did not take a more political stance in a vacum starting the fight as Joe would have us believe. The eason they stated fighting gun control was the people who were pushing it.

Cite please

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 7:47:26 PM

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thompsonx
Then in the 80's it started becoming more and more political claiming............that the left hates amerika and all of that shit.

Cite please

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 7:54:27 PM

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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I thought the NRA started becoming political after 1968 when there were calls for handgun control but you seem to know everything so the 1980's, whatever.

I appreciate that you understand that.

I've never heard about them saying the left hates America, just the left hates your guns, your freedom / to own a gun and they want to take your guns. It seems evident to me.

Goody two shoes has always had a hard on for things that go bump in the night. The nra created the issue and goody two shoes has no power. Remember in the usa the people elect their lawmakers. Controversy sells magazines. How difficult would it be for you to check the circulation/membership numbers for the nra for the past fifty years and see how this bullshit has affected their bottom line?

Just like you I like The American Rifleman magazine, the firearms expertise,

This I like about the ar.

the hats, decals and all the rest of it

Useless waste of ink

but if they weren't defending the second Amendment I would not support them.

As I asked joe, what exactly has changed in gun law in the past 50 years? Some are a little light in the loafers when it comes to backing up their rhetoric so I do not expect much from him. What are you bringing to the table?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 11/17/2015 7:57:16 PM >

(in reply to lovmuffin)

RE: The Best Historic Argument in Keeping Guns. - 11/17/2015 7:57:14 PM

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thompsonx
Then in the 80's it started becoming more and more political claiming............that the left hates amerika and all of that shit.

Cite please

If you read ar on a monthly bassis the accusations of the left hates amreika resound through chris cox's editorials as well as wayne's.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

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