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Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol originat... - 12/7/2015 8:24:58 AM   
BOXMOOR74


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Dear sir or madam,
I read from my personal library some of the originating books of Gor.

I now ask where does the female slaves dress protocol originate from as I have not found it mentioned in the slave based societies of the last 7,000 years like the Egyptian,the Chinese,The Grecian,The Roman,The Southern Slave Society prior to the Civil war or is the female slave dress protocol just from the authors imagination?

John Robert Size
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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 12/11/2015 7:45:54 AM   
malefica


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I'd probably say that the strongest influence is Greco-Roman based purely on how the aesthetics are described, but then again, how a Roman Dominus would dress their slave also varied a lot from owner to owner - don't look at Spartacus as a reference. HBO's Rome is at least more accurate if you are looking for costume porn that is more authentic.

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 12/11/2015 11:30:02 PM   
Malkinius


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John.....

The Greco-Roman source is correct for most of the city states in the books with some license from the author to create what he wished. The other cultures of the books used clothing from those cultures to some extent or minimal to no clothing where possible including from Inuit tribal areas to Bantu African jungle settings to Japanese Shogante era clothing. It really depends on where which book was set. The author was both a student of history as well as a PhD and professor of Philosophy. Or you could just say he used both history and what he needed for the story at the time to determine what, if anything, a slave would wear. Most of the books are set in a Mediterranean climate area so clothing as appropriate.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 9/1/2016 4:21:12 AM   
fras77


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Little confusion..................

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 9/1/2016 6:21:19 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

John.....

The Greco-Roman source is correct for most of the city states in the books with some license from the author to create what he wished. The other cultures of the books used clothing from those cultures to some extent or minimal to no clothing where possible including from Inuit tribal areas to Bantu African jungle settings to Japanese Shogante era clothing. It really depends on where which book was set. The author was both a student of history as well as a PhD and professor of Philosophy. Or you could just say he used both history and what he needed for the story at the time to determine what, if anything, a slave would wear. Most of the books are set in a Mediterranean climate area so clothing as appropriate.

Malkinius of Chicago


Also... the books were intended as light pornography... so that probably had more to do with the choice of clothing for female slaves than any academic consideration.

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 9/1/2016 6:38:53 AM   
Malkinius


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Bhruic....

Actually, romance novel is more appropriate then light porn or even erotica. There is so little actual sex in the books they are mostly PG rated or PG-13 at best. The clothing really is mostly either culture based or in general Greco-Roman based through most of the books. The Turian camisk is the only thing out of whole cloth (pun intended) that I think Norman created. If you pay attention to what is really written in the books and have a bit of historical costuming knowledge, it is pretty obvious.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 9/1/2016 7:33:52 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Bhruic....

Actually, romance novel is more appropriate then light porn or even erotica. There is so little actual sex in the books they are mostly PG rated or PG-13 at best.

Malkinius of Chicago


I know that you take a very narrow view of things, Malkinius... but even for you that seems like a breathtakingly naive, or at least myopic, assertion to make in a forum, dedicated to the books, which lives on a BDSM and alternative sexuality web site.

I don't know if I have ever encountered a alt sexuality forum that did not have a Gorean group!

While it is definitely very light porn by today's standards, even today it serves as erotic inspiration for a particular section of the alt sexuality community.

In the 60's it was definitely considered erotica, if not somewhat shocking pornography. In fact, it is widely acknowledged that the pornographic content of the Gor series contributed significantly to is success and longevity, and the pornographic content was also the source of its most scathing criticisms.

Surely you are not so enshrouded by your unique personal interpretation that you can no longer see the obvious???

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 9/1/2016 10:43:50 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Actually, romance novel is more appropriate then light porn or even erotica. There is so little actual sex in the books they are mostly PG rated or PG-13 at best.



While it is definitely very light porn by today's standards, even today it serves as erotic inspiration for a particular section of the alt sexuality community.


Erotica? Hell yes.

Pornography? Absolutely not.

There's just not enough explicit sex, or sexual content in them for them to be considered pornography, even back in the 60s.

e·rot·i·ca
əˈrädəkə/
noun
literature or art intended to arouse sexual desire.


Yeah... the books definitely fall under that category. They're often enough attempting to illicit arousal in the the reader. To the point that the author sometimes addresses the reader specifically (especially female readers) with a suggestion that they may have become aroused from reading a passage.

por·nog·ra·phy
pôrˈnäɡrəfē/
noun
printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings.


Typical Gorean sex scene in the books:

quote:

Beasts Of Gor ~ 1 The Sleen

I did not let her speak further then, but forced the slave, as my whim had it, to endure the lengthy tumult of a bond girl's degradation, lying chained in the arms of a master who does not choose to show her mercy.
I had her as what she was, a slave.
In a quarter of an Ahn her beauty squirmed helplessly; my arms bled from her fingernails; her eyes were wild and piteous. "You may speak," I informed her. She threw back her head and screamed, jolting with spasms, "I yield me your slave! I yield me your slave!" she cried. How beautiful a woman is in such a moment! I waited until she drew tremblingly quiescent, looking at me. Then I cried out with the pleasure of owning her, and claimed her. She clutched me, kissing me. "I love you, Master," she wept. "I love you."


There's no reasonable way that you can call that 'explicit'.
Norman, almost casually, mentions Tarl 'had' the woman, and then mentions that in response the 'yields'. That's erotica. Not pornography.
There's nothing explicit about that. There's no detail, no mention of specific acts, no reference to anything specifically sexual.
It's a bunch of hints, with it being up to the reader to fill in the blanks.

That's erotica for sure... but hardly pornography considering the explicit nature of the pornographic novels that date back to the same period
(and before it).

There are some scenes that are slightly more explicit, such as the following:

quote:

Dancer of Gor ~ 34 Love

"Master well knows how to use a slave," I gasped. "Will he not be merciful with me? What does he want of me? I am only a slave! Must he drive me mad with passion?"
"Be silent," he grumbled.
I twisted helplessly in the love chains. I jerked helplessly again them, the rings cutting into my ankles, pulling against my wrists. There are many varieties of such chains. These were simple and had been earlier taken from the wagoner" s bench, part of the loot which my master had divided between himself and Mirus. Each consisted of a wrist ring and an ankle ring, joined by about ten inches of chain. My left wrist had been attached to my left ankle, my right wrist to my right ankle. I was on my back. A chain was also on my neck. It fastened me to a nearby tree, a yard or so from our blankets.
"You danced well, earlier," he said.
"Master!" I gasped. "Master!"
His tongue was incredible, so gentle, so subtle and yet so persuasive, so forceful, so irresistible.
"You are a hot slave," he commented.
"Hot! I was flaming, and helpless!
He drew back a bit, amused.
Quickly I lifted myself piteously, suppliantly to him.
"Is this how the woman of Earth behave?" he asked.
"I am no longer of Earth," I said. "I am of Gor, and a slave! Be merciful, I beg it, to a helplessly aroused slave!"
He chuckled, the beast, at my discomfiture, and helplessness, and need! "Please, please!" I begged.
"You are far from Earth now, and your library, slave," he said.
"Yes, Master! Yes, Master!" I said. "Please, please, Master!" I lifted myself to him in mute petition.
How he relished the power he held over me!
"Oh, yes!" I cried, as his tongue, again touched me. It had been a tiny, subtle touch, and yet, as he doubtless knew, from my distraught condition, it had brought me to the point where my response was totally within his power and I must beg.
"Please, Master," I whimpered.
"Do you beg?" he asked.
"Yes, Master!" I said.
"Who begs?" he asked.
"Tuka, the slave of Teibar of Ar, begs!" I moaned.
Again his tongue touched me and I threw back my head and screamed with joy, jerking against the chains. "Oh!" I cried. "Oh!" I shuddered, and thrashed and gasped. Then I lay quiet in his chains, looking up at him in wonder, in gratitude. I was his. My entire body was rich in the memory of what he had done to me, in one sense what he had made me beg for, in another sense what he had forced me to endure.
"I am yours," I said.
"That is known to me," he said. He then touched me again, this time gently, with his hand.
Again I looked up at him, helplessly.
"You are mine to caress," he said.
"Yes, my master," I whispered. Then he made me cry out, softly, and then turned me to my belly on the blankets, and lifted me to him. Then he permitted me to lie on my side, and I tried to kiss at his body.


But as you can see, Norman still only hints at sexual acts taking place. The closest he comes is referencing that something is being done involving a tongue, that's causing the girl to gasp. That's about as detailed as Norman ever gets. Even in the most recent books he doesn't take his descriptions beyond that.

Hardly what you'd call 'explicit' even in 1985.




< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 9/1/2016 10:46:09 AM >


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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 9/2/2016 2:46:00 PM   
Bhruic


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You may not consider it pornography, but many in the 60's and 70's did, and criticized it as such.

My original comment spoke to the original intent of the work, not what present day denizens of a sexuality web site might think of it, vis a vis its pornographic nature.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 9/2/2016 2:47:45 PM >


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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 9/3/2016 12:30:09 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

You may not consider it pornography, but many in the 60's and 70's did, and criticized it as such.

My original comment spoke to the original intent of the work, not what present day denizens of a sexuality web site might think of it, vis a vis its pornographic nature.


What others wrongly have considered it doesn't matter much, now doesn't it?

By definition, it's not pornography, because it's not explicit enough to qualify in that vein.

As such, your comment that it was intended as pornography is utter nonsense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Also... the books were intended as light pornography... so that probably had more to do with the choice of clothing for female slaves than any academic consideration.


It was then, and is now, erotica, by the very definition of what pornography and erotica are. Even back when they were written, they were by no means as explicit as some of the actual pornographic works in existence, and there were many other works more explicit that were commonly labeled erotica, so even seem by the lens of the time they were not pornographic.

Unless you have it from Norman's mouth himself that he intended it as pornography, your conjunction that it is, and was intended as such, is no less idiotic as people -wrongly- considering Michelangelo's 'David' to be pornographic (not to put Norman's work on that level... it's just a well known example of people misnomering the term 'pornography' to label stuff they disapprove of).


< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 9/3/2016 12:32:56 PM >


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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 9/6/2016 12:46:06 PM   
Bhruic


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quote:


By definition, it's not pornography, because it's not explicit enough to qualify in that vein.

As such, your comment that it was intended as pornography is utter nonsense.


That logic is, in fact, nonsense. Much that was intended as one thing has been, much later in history, considered something quite different.

Once upon a time, an exposed ankle was considered explicitly sexual. Your inability to understand history doesn't make your point.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 9/6/2016 12:50:03 PM >


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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 9/23/2016 10:53:10 AM   
Live2Learn


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I have read that the Romans apparently discussed in the Senate whether to dress slaves different but then they decided that since slaves outnumbered free people 2 to 1, that it might be a bad idea after all.

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 10/17/2016 12:40:36 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOXMOOR74

Dear sir or madam,
I read from my personal library some of the originating books of Gor.

I now ask where does the female slaves dress protocol originate from as I have not found it mentioned in the slave based societies of the last 7,000 years like the Egyptian,the Chinese,The Grecian,The Roman,The Southern Slave Society prior to the Civil war or is the female slave dress protocol just from the authors imagination?

John Robert Size

The female lecturers in John Norman's philosophy department who talked back to him wearing shoes while doing so?

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 10/25/2016 1:19:33 AM   
MsZifra


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The costume is created for access, pure and simple. John wrote these to satisfy his own personal love of the idea of having slaves. He asked himself how he would do things if he could, the rest is history.

Thousands of people share his kink!

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 2/12/2017 8:41:15 AM   
robertsez


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quote:

The costume is created for access, pure and simple. John wrote these to satisfy his own personal love of the idea of having slaves.


Possibly. In a former life, I had a co-coworker who told me that he preferred that women wore dresses for "accessibility." Since that time, I often thought about the "accessibility factor" when I noticed a woman wearing a dress out in the Vanilla world.

Another reason for slaves to wear a separate and distinct costume is for the purpose of identification. A collar, especially a Gorean one (such as those from Ring of Steel) certainly leaves no question as to her station in life.

As far as wearing a Gorean collar 24/7 in a modern setting, I think it would raise too many eyebrows in the Vanilla population. In Gor or ancient Rome, slaves were commonplace; in modern America, they are not. Therefore, I would think the close-fitting, 3/8-inch Gorean collar would make it more difficult to function in Society.

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 2/14/2017 5:44:16 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

You may not consider it pornography, but many in the 60's and 70's did, and criticized it as such.

My original comment spoke to the original intent of the work, not what present day denizens of a sexuality web site might think of it, vis a vis its pornographic nature.

I don't think so. Do you have any specific sources? I mean hell, the waltz was criticized as erotic -- that doesn't make it so.

There was criticism about the objectification of women. That's often a complaint about porn too, so perhaps the cause of the confusion/conflation.

The most "erotic" scene I can think of is when a slave is ordered to go down on our captive hero to humiliate him, and she swallows. But even that scene is so vaguely written that no teenager would realize what was happened.

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 2/14/2017 5:45:53 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: robertsez

quote:

The costume is created for access, pure and simple. John wrote these to satisfy his own personal love of the idea of having slaves.


Possibly. In a former life, I had a co-coworker who told me that he preferred that women wore dresses for "accessibility." Since that time, I often thought about the "accessibility factor" when I noticed a woman wearing a dress out in the Vanilla world.

Another reason for slaves to wear a separate and distinct costume is for the purpose of identification. A collar, especially a Gorean one (such as those from Ring of Steel) certainly leaves no question as to her station in life.

As far as wearing a Gorean collar 24/7 in a modern setting, I think it would raise too many eyebrows in the Vanilla population. In Gor or ancient Rome, slaves were commonplace; in modern America, they are not. Therefore, I would think the close-fitting, 3/8-inch Gorean collar would make it more difficult to function in Society.

And yet, I know girls who wear them and hold responsible positions in society.

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 2/14/2017 9:23:27 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: robertsez

Therefore, I would think the close-fitting, 3/8-inch Gorean collar would make it more difficult to function in Society.


It doesn't really make any difference at all.

My girl wears this one, with a tag on it, 24/7: https://www.axsmar.eu/Stainless-Steel/Talena/Talena-neck-collar-6mm::4.html (I don't like the hinges on the Ring of Steel models).
And this one on occasion: http://www.traeume-aus-edelstahl.de/english/jewelry/neck-bracelet-curved/ (the edge of the lock makes it impossible for her to run/crossfit with it, which is why it's not her daily collar).

While there are times where certain people in the general public recognize them for what they are, the reaction to them is nothing more than an inside smile, or a hushed comment of admiration and recognition.

She holds a position as account manager for a large health insurance company, dealing with clients on a daily basis, and neither collar has ever caused any issues for her employment.

The only problem a locked collar poses in public life is going through airport security, but even that's not any bigger than a mere request for a pat down, as most TSA personnel has been trained how to deal with and respond to locking 'jewelry. The worst that's ever happened to her in that regard is an annoyed TSA employee telling her to "tell her Master to take the collar off before flying, because it's a waste of the TSA's time to have to deal with patting her down".




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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 2/17/2017 3:16:02 PM   
LTE


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quote:

I now ask where does the female slaves dress protocol originate from


The good doctor's imagination. His fictional slaves were only given clothes for three reasons. Physical need, motivational reward, love.
I do also mine with the addition of one other reason, as a trophy.

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RE: Where does the Gor female slave dress protocol orig... - 2/17/2017 3:26:34 PM   
LTE


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quote:

As far as wearing a Gorean collar 24/7 in a modern setting, I think it would raise too many eyebrows in the Vanilla population.
True. Occasionally mine wears a removable collar out on the town. While it does garner some looks none of them will bother her since I follow the Gorean natural order of "balance".

In this particular situation I balance her collar on one end with a radio remote controlled egg on the other and when you think about it the egg is a internal collar reminding her of who has control and one she constantly feels also just like the balancing external collar around her neck.

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