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RE: Living vs. role play - 3/20/2016 9:57:39 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

When you avoid the matter in question, and simply question the motives of the other person, THAT is an ad hominem argument.



I'm not questioning your motives as an attack. I asked the question because I was genuinely interested in the answer.

The same way that you're interested in the motive of Goreans.

It wasn't meant to imply that I cast your personal character in doubt, I was merely looking for the answers which you gave (in a most satisfactory manner btw, because what you said made perfect sense).

My apologizes if it came across like an attack, it wasn't intended as one.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 3/20/2016 2:39:59 PM   
tamaka


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John Norman was a philosophy professor and the series of books he wrote are just philosophical ideas put forth by various philosophers in a story book form.

The real life vs fantasy frustration is the difference between one person who would say they understand how various agent based moralities affect them and how they maintain control of their self perceptions. vd
someone who wants an 'escape from real life' by playing the part of some fictional character. Understanding & self analysis vs. entertainment.

< Message edited by tamaka -- 3/20/2016 2:45:27 PM >

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RE: Living vs. role play - 3/20/2016 2:57:06 PM   
Bhruic


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No worries... I didn't take it as an attack. I took it more as a debating tactic.

If you hadn't used the term "crusade", I might have considered it legitimately as just a side question :)

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 3/20/2016 3:01:07 PM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 3/20/2016 3:14:08 PM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

John Norman was a philosophy professor and the series of books he wrote are just philosophical ideas put forth by various philosophers in a story book form.

The real life vs fantasy frustration is the difference between one person who would say they understand how various agent based moralities affect them and how they maintain control of their self perceptions. vd
someone who wants an 'escape from real life' by playing the part of some fictional character. Understanding & self analysis vs. entertainment.


I agree with this assessment. I guess my point is that since the philosophical ideas are fundamentally human, and not novel or unique to the Gor books, you don't need reference to the Gor books to entertain those ideas. Once you take on the terminology and cultural practices of a fictional society, it seems to me you are then adding escapist fantasy to your otherwise commonplace beliefs... and this seems to me to be role play, whether you are doing it on-line, or in your living room with your partner.

Not that I have any problem at all with role play. I just don't understand the derisive attitude from some towards others who they declare are "just role playing."

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RE: Living vs. role play - 3/21/2016 3:34:34 PM   
tamaka


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It is a bit odd now that you mention it but for those who have done the homework calling yourself Gorean just. for roleplay is like calling yourself a Christian without actually having accepted Christ... which of course a Gorean would never do.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 3/22/2016 12:39:19 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

It is a bit odd now that you mention it but for those who have done the homework calling yourself Gorean just. for roleplay is like calling yourself a Christian without actually having accepted Christ... which of course a Gorean would never do.


I'm not sure I understand. Goreans do not (at least I am pretty sure they don't) profess to believe that the planet Gor and its culture actually exist, so I don't think comparing people who call themselves Gorean with people who call themselves Christian is an accurate comparison.

Although, to be fair, with the important exception of thinking its real, I do see some comparisons. Some people do revere the Gor books as if they were scripture, and can be quite self righteous about it.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/1/2016 7:54:39 AM   
EmmaDilemma


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As a newby with no axe to grind and very little real knowledge, doesn't it seem odd that anyone in this lifestyle has a problem with other people's lifestyle and kink, so much so that they feel the need to poke and make light of somebodies perfectly reasonable lifestyle choices. If that person is also happy and living their life to the fullest and is happy to share their knowledge, why would anyone but a darned ass wish to mess with them?
Just sayin'.....

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/1/2016 1:22:20 PM   
Malkinius


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Emma.....

The thing about Goreans is that we do not, for many previously explained reasons in various threads here and elsewhere, consider ourselves any part of the "lifestyle" or "kink". The only connection is through the consensual slavery that some, not all, Goreans are involved in. Remove that and we get real boring really fast to anyone who wants a "lifestyle" or something "kinky". The other thing about us is that we don't have a problem being judgmental any more than others, especially those in the "lifestyle" and "kink" have a problem judging us, almost always, in a negative fashion. Yes, we know what sort of place this is. No, we don't think the books depict a real place and no we don't care what you are into as long as you don't try to push it on us. Finally....no, not everyone in the "lifestyle" and "kink" are happy with their situation and what they do according to their own writings and yes, many of them do have problems with what others do. BDSM is not one big happy campfire singing family. Neither are Goreans for that matter.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/2/2016 7:03:09 AM   
eliseobeys


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I have yet to encounter this "One true way" ism with Gor. Ive ironically encountered it plenty of times from non-Goreans.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/2/2016 7:21:56 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmmaDilemma

As a newby with no axe to grind and very little real knowledge, doesn't it seem odd that anyone in this lifestyle has a problem with other people's lifestyle and kink, so much so that they feel the need to poke and make light of somebodies perfectly reasonable lifestyle choices. If that person is also happy and living their life to the fullest and is happy to share their knowledge, why would anyone but a darned ass wish to mess with them?
Just sayin'.....


I could be wrong, but I suspect your observation was directed at me. As in, why do i feel compelled to ask Goreans why they are so dismissive of others who they deem "role players". Its their lifestyle choice etc. etc..

I would argue that the people who have chosen to explore their Gorean interest through role play may have opinions and observations just as valid and/or interesting as those who say they "live it", and do not deserve to be so dismissed. In that sense, I agree with your observation.

I'm not sure what Malkinius thinks your observation is about, but it sounds like he is invalidating it by saying that Goreans do not consider themselves part of the Kink scene, or lifestyle. I am sure that for some who "live" Gorean, that is true. Especially if "living Gorean" means no sex. But his point is well taken. Some people are very judgemental of others, and Goreans are no exception.



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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/2/2016 7:28:44 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eliseobeys

I have yet to encounter this "One true way" ism with Gor. Ive ironically encountered it plenty of times from non-Goreans.


You've never encountered the "I live it, you just role play" scenario?

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/2/2016 7:50:06 AM   
eliseobeys


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Yes Bhruic, I have encountered that on the chat sites from all the lifestyle people, even been guilty of it myself on occasion when trying to explain how roleplaying something online is not the same as doing it in real life. Each is what it is in it's own right but not the same.





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The pride of the slave girl is the pride of the girl who knows that no other woman is the equal of herself.' "

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/2/2016 8:03:22 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eliseobeys

Yes Bhruic, I have encountered that on the chat sites from all the lifestyle people, even been guilty of it myself on occasion when trying to explain how roleplaying something online is not the same as doing it in real life. Each is what it is in it's own right but not the same.



I agree that role playing something on-line is not the same as doing it in real life... especially sex and BDSM.

However, in another thread, Malkinius himself admits that, at one time, he role played Gor on-line. Clearly then, on-line role play was part of his journey to ultimately "living" Gorean, as he puts it.

To me, for someone to summarily dismiss the opinions of another simply because they are engaged in an activity that you yourself once engaged in, in order to reach the lofty heights of knowledge and status you now claim to enjoy, seems hypocritical, cliqueish, and not a little bit insecure.

And that doesn't strike me as compatible with the Gorean ethic. Well... maybe cliqueish, in the sense of tribalism, does.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/2/2016 8:04:06 AM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/2/2016 8:12:57 AM   
eliseobeys


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Gor has snobs just like any other grouping of people I guess. lol





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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/3/2016 12:25:32 AM   
Malkinius


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Bhruic.....

No, I don't dismiss what others say or even that people who only role play Gor have nothing to contribute. The best example of that is Luther whose "scrolls" are still used today for information and insights beyond that needed for role playing. Luther used to be called the Encyclopedist of Gor because of all his lists, cataloging and insights into where Norman took things from. And no...living Gorean doesn't mean you don't have sex. Some Goreans don't have slaves and those people, unless they are also involved in other BDSM things, have no connection to BDSM and kink in the slightest. You don't have to own a slave to be Gorean. Some think it is easier if you don't and I can't say that they are wrong.

Yes, there are won twue way people among Goreans. There are snobs and most other things you can think of. However, that doesn't mean we are wrong in what we say and do. It may be wrong for you but right for us. In various places and times and groups we have fought amongst ourselves about what it means to be and live Gorean. After all these years, some of us have come to a consensus and it is still changing. There are people who have called themselves Gorean and gone off living however they thought was right without contact with others. We discover them every now and then. It is....interesting...when it happens. It is also instructional.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/3/2016 3:23:08 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Bhruic.....

No, I don't dismiss what others say or even that people who only role play Gor have nothing to contribute.


I've seen you do it here on more than one occasion... hence my original question.

quote:


Yes, there are won twue way people among Goreans. There are snobs and most other things you can think of. However, that doesn't mean we are wrong in what we say and do. It may be wrong for you but right for us.


I have never asserted that it was wrong. I have only sought to understand how people who "live" Gorean live.

quote:


In various places and times and groups we have fought amongst ourselves about what it means to be and live Gorean.


I've seen plenty of that too. I guess I just do not understand the pissing contest, or what people derive from asserting the superiority of their "Goreaness" over others. As I have said before... it strikes me as insecurity, which seems an unGorean trait.


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/4/2016 12:38:06 AM   
Malkinius


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Bhruic....

I have dismissed individuals who obviously have proven they have no clue or are just here to troll for slaves or trouble. In those cases, you are right. But the obvious ones are easy pickings and I leave them to others these days. They need the practice. Unless I am bored, I mostly stay out of things here and elsewhere....or unless I believe I have something to positively contribute or correct. Or, if it is still around when you return, the clueless idiot who started a new thread here. That was so bad I didn't bother replying, just reported it.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/4/2016 12:52:57 AM   
DaddySatyr


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I'm not a Gorean (I voted for the other guy), but I do think I may have something to add, here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

I don't 'live' Gorean. I 'am' Gorean.



If we change out the word: "Gorean" for the word: "Dominant", I'm on-board.

I have said before (and still believe) that no one can live their life in an entirely Gorean manner. After all, people would frown on beheading slaves that are displeasing.

However, as with other groups in the world, Gor is based on a set of core principles. If one follows those principles to the best of their ability (as long as their ability meets some kind of criteria), aren't they "Gorean"? Does a Christian cease to be a Christian when they get drunk at a party?

I was in a band that was successful enough where we were able to live (relatively comfortably) just on our musical proceeds alone. We never had a gold record. We never toured the world and we never were on MTV. Were we not musicians?

I don't believe one has to do EVERYTHING in a certain lifestyle, but the base ... the core principles and values can be adhered to and they can claim that "title".



Michael


< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 5/4/2016 12:54:16 AM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/4/2016 5:02:36 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I was in a band that was successful enough where we were able to live (relatively comfortably) just on our musical proceeds alone. We never had a gold record. We never toured the world and we never were on MTV. Were we not musicians?



Absolutely you were musicians. But if you were all just really in to music, heard a lot of live music and knew tons of history about a lot of bands. Or fantasized about being musicians, and maybe even owned some instruments, but didn't have the discipline to learn to play them... then no, you would not be musicians.

Although, one might say you were role playing the lifestyle of being a musician :)

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/4/2016 6:13:29 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Absolutely you were musicians. But if you were all just really in to music, heard a lot of live music and knew tons of history about a lot of bands. Or fantasized about being musicians, and maybe even owned some instruments, but didn't have the discipline to learn to play them... then no, you would not be musicians.

Although, one might say you were role playing the lifestyle of being a musician :)



Okay. So, we agree (I think) there are certain standards a person must attain to be considered a musician (and, for the record: I believe playing an instrument would be one ... except vocalists would get pissed off and, do you remember the old joke about what you call a guy that likes to hang out with musicians while they play a gig? {A Drummer}).

So (I know next to nothing about Gor) what are the standards that you see as qualifying someone as "Living" Gorean (I think "being" would be a better word)?

Is it possession of a certain kind of "Home Stone"? Is it an ability to make shackles and chains? What are the criteria?



Michael


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