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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/4/2016 7:51:13 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Absolutely you were musicians. But if you were all just really in to music, heard a lot of live music and knew tons of history about a lot of bands. Or fantasized about being musicians, and maybe even owned some instruments, but didn't have the discipline to learn to play them... then no, you would not be musicians.

Although, one might say you were role playing the lifestyle of being a musician :)



Okay. So, we agree (I think) there are certain standards a person must attain to be considered a musician (and, for the record: I believe playing an instrument would be one ... except vocalists would get pissed off and, do you remember the old joke about what you call a guy that likes to hang out with musicians while they play a gig? {A Drummer}).

So (I know next to nothing about Gor) what are the standards that you see as qualifying someone as "Living" Gorean (I think "being" would be a better word)?

Is it possession of a certain kind of "Home Stone"? Is it an ability to make shackles and chains? What are the criteria?



Michael



Well... I don't profess to live Gorean, so it would not be for me to say. In fact, I have asked that same question and not really received any coherent reply about the "living" part.

To me, living a philosophy should entail more than possessing certain accoutrements. After all, having a guitar you don't play hanging on your wall doesn't make you a musician any more than possessing a "home stone" makes you a Gorean... or at least, so it seems to me.

My question was more about why people who say they "live" Gorean are so hostile to those they claim only role play it. And that question goes toward my larger interest in understanding what exactly, philosophically, "living" Gorean really means.

So far I have mostly only heard what living Gorean DOESN'T mean... but a philosophy defined only by what it isn't, seems like a weak, or at least elusive, one. There has to be something more to living Gorean than just saying that is what you do. And there has to be more to having a code of behavior than just saying you have one.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/4/2016 7:53:15 AM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/4/2016 8:07:44 AM   
DaddySatyr


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I would tend to agree with this, but I think it's a matter of judgment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

To me, living a philosophy should entail more than possessing certain accoutrements. After all, having a guitar you don't play hanging on your wall doesn't make you a musician any more than possessing a "home stone" makes you a Gorean... or at least, so it seems to me.



There are some who think owning a bunch of floggers, single-tails, and St. Andrew's crosses qualifies a person as "dominant". I know I sure as hell don't. However, there may be some that think having a "home stone" is enough to qualify.

I can't speak to what constitutes being Gorean, except in very, very general terms. Now, here's the fly in the ointment (drum roll, please): it seems to me that some of those criteria are shared (as ideals) by many groups.

Honesty, integrity, a sense of self and the ability to be objective enough to evaluate one's self. A sense of community and, even brotherhood.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

... So far I have mostly only heard what living Gorean DOESN'T mean... but a philosophy defined only by what it isn't, seems like a weak, or at least elusive, one. There has to be something more to living Gorean than just saying that is what you do. And there has to be more to having a code of behavior than just saying you have one.



One example comes to mind (and I'm sure, if I had time, I could think of others): "Marines do not steal, cheat, lie, compromise, or use drugs (except for alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine)". Ask just about any U.S. Marine and they'll agree that that list of what they aren't/don't do defines who they are in a very real - if general - way.



Michael


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/4/2016 9:25:52 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I would tend to agree with this, but I think it's a matter of judgment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

To me, living a philosophy should entail more than possessing certain accoutrements. After all, having a guitar you don't play hanging on your wall doesn't make you a musician any more than possessing a "home stone" makes you a Gorean... or at least, so it seems to me.



There are some who think owning a bunch of floggers, single-tails, and St. Andrew's crosses qualifies a person as "dominant". I know I sure as hell don't. However, there may be some that think having a "home stone" is enough to qualify.

I can't speak to what constitutes being Gorean, except in very, very general terms. Now, here's the fly in the ointment (drum roll, please): it seems to me that some of those criteria are shared (as ideals) by many groups.

Honesty, integrity, a sense of self and the ability to be objective enough to evaluate one's self. A sense of community and, even brotherhood.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

... So far I have mostly only heard what living Gorean DOESN'T mean... but a philosophy defined only by what it isn't, seems like a weak, or at least elusive, one. There has to be something more to living Gorean than just saying that is what you do. And there has to be more to having a code of behavior than just saying you have one.



One example comes to mind (and I'm sure, if I had time, I could think of others): "Marines do not steal, cheat, lie, compromise, or use drugs (except for alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine)". Ask just about any U.S. Marine and they'll agree that that list of what they aren't/don't do defines who they are in a very real - if general - way.



Michael



I wholly agree with everything you have said.

I don't mean to annoy Goreans, but I sometimes wonder if the reticence to elucidate concrete philosophies doesn't come from the concern that they would not seem meaningfully different from many other commonly held philosophies... and thus detract from the sense of Gorean philosophy as something unique.

For some time I have been legitimately interested to learn if there are any aspects of Gorean philosophy, or ethics, or behavioral code, that are both unique to Gor, and practicable in the real world.

My interest is often interpreted as antagonism to Goreans, but it really is not.

My only comment about your list of things Marines don't do, is that it is a tangible enough list that one can interpolate what Marines DO... i.e. they are honest, respect values of honour and justice, and respect their physical fitness for duty etc.. Not all don't lists have an obvious obverse.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/4/2016 9:33:52 AM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/5/2016 12:08:20 AM   
Malkinius


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Michael.......

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
If we change out the word: "Gorean" for the word: "Dominant", I'm on-board.

I have said before (and still believe) that no one can live their life in an entirely Gorean manner. After all, people would frown on beheading slaves that are displeasing.

However, as with other groups in the world, Gor is based on a set of core principles. If one follows those principles to the best of their ability (as long as their ability meets some kind of criteria), aren't they "Gorean"? Does a Christian cease to be a Christian when they get drunk at a party?

<snip>

Michael


Like most people you are confusing cultural story elements which in that case, never happened in any of the books, with what people do on Earth. And no....you don't have to be "dominant" in the BDSM sense to be Gorean. What you do have to be is someone who believes in certain things and lives by them. It is the "certain things" that most people either don't get or don't understand or don't understand why what we believe and do is different from other people and groups.

To understand what Goreans believe, first you remove everything dealing with slavery. I do mean everything. The closest point of our philosophy is that we do believe that a spectrum of dominance vs submission exists in humans as it does in most vertebrae creatures. You can be any where on that spectrum and in humans, the vast major it are in the middle part of the spectrum and very very few are at either extreme. We also believe, and science has backed this belief up, that human males tend to shift to the dominant side of the spectrum and human females tend to shift to the submissive side of the spectrum. How that plays out is that with the shift to each side the usual roles of each side change. This means that males biologically, anthropologically and in all other forms tend more towards the protector, provider and outwardly focused side and females towards the protected, nurturing, and inwardly focused side of human activities. In general, we believe in fulfilling nature's roles for humans as they have developed. So things that work with nature are good and things which don't, aren't. Therefore traits which promote such roles on both sides, such as honesty, strength (not just physical), responsibility and community are important to us. Some people think we mean just physical strength but we do not. While it is nice, strength of mind, of will, of responsibility, etc. are also highly prized and respected.

That gives you some small bit of what we talk about. Home Stones are a cultural item from the books that some Goreans have incorporated into our lives but not all have done so. There is nothing required of anyone to do so. What they are is a symbol of place and community. A personal Home Stone says, "This is my place, my center, my home." A community Home Stone says, "This is our place, our community and the symbol of us. The feeling widens out from there to larger and larger circles until you have the planet itself. The Gorean word for the planet is Gor. The Gorean word for the Home Stone is Gor. The sun is called Tor-Tu-Gor or the Light Upon the Home Stone. That is an important concept for Goreans.

I hope this brief bit helps both you and Bhruic.

Malkinius of Chicago

PS: I add "of Chicago" because there is a Home Stone in Chicago.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/5/2016 12:22:16 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Malkinius;

I think you may have done just a bit too much snipping (or I may be conflating two of my posts). Obviously, I've snipped yours, but only because what I really wanted to agree with (and refute) is in this one paragraph:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Michael.......


To understand what Goreans believe, first you remove everything dealing with slavery. I do mean everything. The closest point of our philosophy is that we do believe that a spectrum of dominance vs submission exists in humans as it does in most vertebrae creatures. You can be any where on that spectrum and in humans, the vast major it are in the middle part of the spectrum and very very few are at either extreme. We also believe, and science has backed this belief up, that human males tend to shift to the dominant side of the spectrum and human females tend to shift to the submissive side of the spectrum. How that plays out is that with the shift to each side the usual roles of each side change. This means that males biologically, anthropologically and in all other forms tend more towards the protector, provider and outwardly focused side and females towards the protected, nurturing, and inwardly focused side of human activities. In general, we believe in fulfilling nature's roles for humans as they have developed. So things that work with nature are good and things which don't, aren't. Therefore traits which promote such roles on both sides, such as honesty, strength (not just physical), responsibility and community are important to us. Some people think we mean just physical strength but we do not. While it is nice, strength of mind, of will, of responsibility, etc. are also highly prized and respected.

<snip>Malkinius of Chicago

PS: I add "of Chicago" because there is a Home Stone in Chicago.



The portion that I highlighted in this color, I agree with whole-heartedly and almost always have. While there are instances in the animal kingdom (and even, possibly a few humans) of female dominance, I believe them to be the outliers.

The part that I've highlighted in this color I, kind of, covered here:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr (from post #42)


Honesty, integrity, a sense of self and the ability to be objective enough to evaluate one's self. A sense of community and, even brotherhood.




Did I miss the mark?



Michael


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/5/2016 1:45:23 AM   
Malkinius


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Michael....

The two are close but not identical and I wasn't thinking or remember your other post when I wrote that. What I wrote was not complete in all things, just some.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/5/2016 5:00:08 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius


Like most people you are confusing cultural story elements which in that case, never happened in any of the books, with what people do on Earth. And no....you don't have to be "dominant" in the BDSM sense to be Gorean. What you do have to be is someone who believes in certain things and lives by them. It is the "certain things" that most people either don't get or don't understand or don't understand why what we believe and do is different from other people and groups.

To understand what Goreans believe, first you remove everything dealing with slavery. I do mean everything. The closest point of our philosophy is that we do believe that a spectrum of dominance vs submission exists in humans as it does in most vertebrae creatures. You can be any where on that spectrum and in humans, the vast major it are in the middle part of the spectrum and very very few are at either extreme. We also believe, and science has backed this belief up, that human males tend to shift to the dominant side of the spectrum and human females tend to shift to the submissive side of the spectrum. How that plays out is that with the shift to each side the usual roles of each side change. This means that males biologically, anthropologically and in all other forms tend more towards the protector, provider and outwardly focused side and females towards the protected, nurturing, and inwardly focused side of human activities. In general, we believe in fulfilling nature's roles for humans as they have developed. So things that work with nature are good and things which don't, aren't. Therefore traits which promote such roles on both sides, such as honesty, strength (not just physical), responsibility and community are important to us. Some people think we mean just physical strength but we do not. While it is nice, strength of mind, of will, of responsibility, etc. are also highly prized and respected.

That gives you some small bit of what we talk about. Home Stones are a cultural item from the books that some Goreans have incorporated into our lives but not all have done so. There is nothing required of anyone to do so. What they are is a symbol of place and community. A personal Home Stone says, "This is my place, my center, my home." A community Home Stone says, "This is our place, our community and the symbol of us. The feeling widens out from there to larger and larger circles until you have the planet itself. The Gorean word for the planet is Gor. The Gorean word for the Home Stone is Gor. The sun is called Tor-Tu-Gor or the Light Upon the Home Stone. That is an important concept for Goreans.

I hope this brief bit helps both you and Bhruic.

Malkinius of Chicago

PS: I add "of Chicago" because there is a Home Stone in Chicago.


It doesn't help me much, honestly. Your description of what Goreans believe in sounds like what the vast majority of humanity has traditionally always believed. Community, respect, strength of mind and body, Man as strong provider and protector, woman as nurturing and submissive, etc..

There are cultures all over the world that believe in all those things, but have other qualities that make them distinct. I still have not heard anything that makes Gorean ideals distinct... except for the concept of slaves, which you have indicated has nothing to do with Gorean ideals.

Actual examples from life where a Gorean person would behave differently from anyone else would be useful though.

Its hard not to think of Gor as a nice fantasy wrapper for ordinary ideals. I have honest curiosity if there is more to it than that.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/5/2016 10:12:50 AM   
Bhruic


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Malkinius... Can you give an example of a situation from real life, where someone who lives Gorean would react or behave differently from the average person? This would go a long way towards illustrating what it means to be "Gorean".

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 2:05:32 AM   
Malkinius


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Bhruic....

There is nothing a Gorean would do that someone else can not or would not do in any given situation. But, what is different about say the average American....that depends on where in America you are talking about. Regretfully, the average person these days seems to be very self-centered and will do whatever will get them out of trouble or something for free or to find someone else to blame for their condition...as in anyone but themselves. Not everyone and except for maybe a bit of the self-centered part <grins> those are things a Gorean will generally not be. We are obviously not the only people to take responsibility for what we say and do and for the mistakes we make...and then try to fix those mistakes. We are not the only ones who try to make this world a better place....by our definition of better. <grins> But we are also usually not claiming to be one thing or doing something for another reason and actually doing it for only our own advancement or the advancement of our "cause". Obviously I can't say never to any of that but of the ones I know, we are mostly open about why we are doing something...if you ask and sometimes without you asking.

Perhaps it is sometimes better to ask what we are not rather than what we are. Lets just say that Goreans are not usually self-centered cowards who have to blame anyone but themselves for every bad thing that happens in their lives and expect someone else to fix it for them for free. Once again, not the only group who are that way and certainly not at the individual level. What makes us different from the others is we also incorporate some of the cultural side from the books. That is the glue that binds us together as something distinct. The bricks are like many other bricks but the mortar is a unique mixture that holds the bricks together.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 4:57:51 AM   
LadyPact


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<Fast reply.>

I've been looking at this thread for a while and had some thoughts about it.

Site specific. This is the only forum that has one disclaimer that is not found in any other section. It reads:

quote:

As the description for this section states, this is a forum for the open discussion of topics pertaining to Gorean Lifestlyes. This is not the place to discuss online or real life Gorean roleplaying. All members are welcome to join in the conversation here regardless of experience or interest.


For the most part, I consider that y'all's get out of jail free card. You don't have to deal with BS like, "I want an online Gorean Master, slave," or any of that other gunk. It gives the denizens of this forum the opportunity to avoid that. I have always envied the fact that you folks have the opportunity to tell folks playing Guitar Hero that it might not be quite the same as being a musician.

I don't find this to be entirely different than when people ask about the difference in leather as a culture, rather than M/s. It's not always about what one group does or doesn't do in relationship to the other. It's about how those things are internalized. When the Gorean folks talk about the homestone, the philosophies, or natural order, those things are a part of the culture to "live" or "be" Gorean. The concept is paralleled to those of us who identify as leather when we try to convey concepts such as the spirit of leather or what that fabric represents. Anybody can blacken a pair of boots. It's not the same thing as communing with leather because you don't see those boots in the same way a leather person does.


Any leather person worth their salt will not try to sit and attempt to explain why our culture is distinct. Frankly, we ripped most of it off from other cultures, anyway, so it's not like our origins are unique. (Can't really say any different for any other alternative lifestyle thing.) Let me know when you make a cookie that doesn't contain ingredients of any other cookies that are already being made.


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 7:54:44 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

<Fast reply.>

I've been looking at this thread for a while and had some thoughts about it.

Site specific. This is the only forum that has one disclaimer that is not found in any other section. It reads:

quote:

As the description for this section states, this is a forum for the open discussion of topics pertaining to Gorean Lifestlyes. This is not the place to discuss online or real life Gorean roleplaying. All members are welcome to join in the conversation here regardless of experience or interest.


For the most part, I consider that y'all's get out of jail free card. You don't have to deal with BS like, "I want an online Gorean Master, slave," or any of that other gunk. It gives the denizens of this forum the opportunity to avoid that. I have always envied the fact that you folks have the opportunity to tell folks playing Guitar Hero that it might not be quite the same as being a musician.

I don't find this to be entirely different than when people ask about the difference in leather as a culture, rather than M/s. It's not always about what one group does or doesn't do in relationship to the other. It's about how those things are internalized. When the Gorean folks talk about the homestone, the philosophies, or natural order, those things are a part of the culture to "live" or "be" Gorean. The concept is paralleled to those of us who identify as leather when we try to convey concepts such as the spirit of leather or what that fabric represents. Anybody can blacken a pair of boots. It's not the same thing as communing with leather because you don't see those boots in the same way a leather person does.


Any leather person worth their salt will not try to sit and attempt to explain why our culture is distinct. Frankly, we ripped most of it off from other cultures, anyway, so it's not like our origins are unique. (Can't really say any different for any other alternative lifestyle thing.) Let me know when you make a cookie that doesn't contain ingredients of any other cookies that are already being made.




I think it is a perfectly acceptable explanation to say "There is nothing unique about our philosophy or ethos. We use these accessories, and these protocols to focus and consolidate our community, and to help define for us who is part of our inner circle, and who is not."

That is perfectly comprehensible, and the foundation of all sorts of clubs and social groups. And asserting superiority over others because of your inclusion in such clubs or social groups is not all that mysterious or unexpected either... but I would suggest that is not a particular virtue of such entities.

Because the nature of the conversation is what defines "Gorean lifestyles"... and the plural in "lifestyles" suggests there may be more than one definition... I think the conversation is not in conflict with the group description. In my opinion anyway :)

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/8/2016 8:34:47 AM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 8:56:21 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
I think it is a perfectly acceptable explanation to say "There is nothing unique about our philosophy or ethos. We use these accessories, and these protocols to focus and consolidate our community, and to help define for us who is part of our inner circle, and who is not."

That is perfectly comprehensible, and the foundation of all sorts of clubs and social groups. And asserting superiority over others because of your inclusion in such clubs or social groups is not all that mysterious or unexpected either... but I would suggest that is not a particular virtue of such entities.

Because the nature of the conversation is what defines "Gorean lifestyles"... and the plural in "lifestyles" suggests there may be more than one... I think the conversation is not in conflict with the group description. In my opinion anyway :)

I have to take this in reverse paragraphs. (Very interesting thoughts.)

So, in that last paragraph, is it because of the 's'? Gorean LifestyleS? I can't say a word for the Gorean folk on the matter, but yeah, leather people have that "S". Gay leather, het leather, generations of leather... Which I'm not trying to equate to the Goreans in any way. The reason I even say it is because I have to wonder if some poor guy setting up forum titles would know whether to stick that "S" on something or not.

quote:

but I would suggest that is not a particular virtue of such entities.

That could be it's own thread. There are benefits and liabilities to the 'all-inclusive' policy. Taking the specific cultures of Goreans or leather people out of it, many, if not most (if not all) BDSM communities have had their difficulties relating to being all inclusive. Some of the policies that were considered exclusive a decade ago are coming back to some groups and clubs.

While a great majority of the time I need most things Gorean explained to me, one thing is a glaring similarity between both cultures. We both have those self proclaimed folks that, if that's the example people understand, the rest of us are screwed. Even back when there were a lot of leather people on these boards, all it ever took was that one moron for people to think that's what all leather people are like.



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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 9:35:48 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Malkinius... Can you give an example of a situation from real life, where someone who lives Gorean would react or behave differently from the average person? This would go a long way towards illustrating what it means to be "Gorean".


Can you do the same with an Atheist? A Utilitarian? A Democrat?
Overall, people act very much the same, regardless of their believes or philosophies. It's hard to pin down what somebody is, based on how they react in average situations, instead of by questioning what they believe.

But all right, I'll give an example of a situation in which a Gorean would react differently. It's one of those annoying extremely unlikely hypothetical to illustrate the point, but it carries through in actual real life situations:

Lets say a deranged lunatic would break into the house of a family with one kid. The assailant hold the father up at gun point, and tells him: I'm either going to shoot your wife, or your kid. Pick which one and I'll let the other one live. If you refuse to pick, I will kill all 3 of you.

The next day, when talking to the cops/media about what happens, clutching his surviving family member, the average person would say: "I had to pick, he gave me no choice".
A Gorean would say: "I made a choice; the choice I made was according to my codes".

Ok, ok, ok. Extreme example, but the same thing applies in real life:

- A father being asked by his kid to take the day off to go fishing instead of going to work. The average man would claim: "I don't have a choice, I have to go to work son, I've got a meeting". A Gorean would inform the kid what his choice was, and perhaps (but not necessarily) why.
- A boss tells an employee to embezzle money. They get caught. The average person testifies in court that they didn't have a choice, lest they got fired. The Gorean, had he not already quit the job, would never claim to not have a choice in the matter.
- A married couple fighting, and the man finally getting angry enough at the woman's deliberate, antagonizing, insolence so that he cuffed her in the face. The average man would claim to be sorry, but to not have had a choice. A Gorean men would claim to have made a choice.

A Gorean would consider anybody claiming: "I did it because I didn't have a choice" to be evidence of slave nature, whether that person was legally/socially free or not.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 5/8/2016 9:37:11 AM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 10:22:00 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Malkinius... Can you give an example of a situation from real life, where someone who lives Gorean would react or behave differently from the average person? This would go a long way towards illustrating what it means to be "Gorean".


Can you do the same with an Atheist? A Utilitarian? A Democrat?



I'm not particularly familiar with utilitarianism, but otherwise yes, fairly easily.

Atheists have a very well defined foundation for their philosophy, that being critical thinking, and the absence in belief in supernatural beings and deities. It's not hard to come up with an endless array of social contexts in which Atheists would react or behave differently from non atheists. For example, Atheists would never blame homosexuality for causing a hurricane.

Same goes for democrats and republicans... hence the rampant opposition between those two groups.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/8/2016 10:24:05 AM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 11:24:41 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

For example, Atheists would never blame homosexuality for causing a hurricane.



But you didn't ask for an example of Gorean behavior against its opposite.

You asked an example of Gorean behavior against average behavior.

It's easy to contrast an Atheist against it's direct opposite, as your example illustrates.
However, the average person, wouldn't blame homosexuality for causing hurricanes either. Not even the average religious person blames hurricanes on homosexuality.
There is only a small subset of religious people who do blame hurricanes on homosexuality.

It's much much easier to illustrate typically Gorean behavior against its direct opposites, just like contrasting Atheism against opposites is easier than contrasting it against average behavior.

But contrasting it against it's opposites, we quickly again fall into your -sensible- counter argument "that isn't any different from the behavior of most average people". However the same thing applies to Atheism: the average behavior of an Atheist isn't all that different from most average behavior of average people, be they religious or not.

For example, the average Atheist will not kill random people they don't like.
Neither will the average person in general, nor the average religious person.
The contrast between the Atheist and the religious person (or the average person) in regard to killing people, isn't what they do, it's why they do it.
An Atheist will have different reasons for not randomly killing than a religious person does, even if, on the surface, they behave in the exact same manner.

Your continuously pointing out that being Gorean in almost all cases isn't all that different from exhibiting average behavior, without factoring in that it's not so much a matter of behaving differently from average that makes Gorean, but rather the reasons why behaves a certain way that makes one Gorean.

Just like an Atheist is an Atheist because the reasons why they behave morally are different from the reasons why a religious person behaves morally, even if both parties end up acting in exactly the same way.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 5/8/2016 11:28:59 AM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 11:28:14 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

It's much much easier to illustrate typically Gorean behavior against its direct opposites, just like contrasting Atheism against opposites is easier than contrasting it against average behavior.



That's an interesting point. What IS the exact opposite of a Gorean?

An atheist IS an average person, except as regards theism... and other beliefs that rely on faith, or fly in the face of reason.

Perhaps Goreans are no different from the average person... except as regards their enthusiasm for a series of stories. That was what I was inclined to believe, and I was simply curious if anyone could provide an example that illustrated otherwise.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/8/2016 11:33:46 AM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 11:36:11 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

It's much much easier to illustrate typically Gorean behavior against its direct opposites, just like contrasting Atheism against opposites is easier than contrasting it against average behavior.



That's an interesting point. What IS the exact opposite of a Gorean?


The opposite of a Gorean is somebody whose greatest influence in decision making is things external to themselves.
Somebody who goes with the groups, because the group is doing something. Somebody who dresses a certain way, because it's the latest fashion. Somebody who doesn't speak up when they perceive something is wrong, in order to not cause waves. Somebody who will compromise their own values, because they thing others will react negatively to them if they hold to them. Etc, etc.

Very very very few people are the exact opposite of a Gorean. Most average people consider their own opinions, values, etc above those external to themselves, at least in some -if not all- cases.
As such, most people will, in at least some -if not all- cases end up behaving much the same as Goreans would when it comes to considering internal versus external input in making their decisions.

However, only a very small subset of people -definitely not average- will hold that considering their own internal input above any and all external input is the highest value their internal believe system is build around.
As such, any time a Gorean considers their own internal input above external input, they're doing it for different reasons than when the average person does it, even if the result is most often exactly the same.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 11:51:16 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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To add to that:

The reason why it's the complete opposite of a Gorean is because it's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head, that would make it completely impossible for a person to be Gorean (under the definition of having a Gorean believe system).

Goreans, like most other cultures have other values they hold in common, and aspire to, with lessor or greater success, depending on the person. However, failing to attain any of these values does not necessarily make somebody unGorean, it just makes them a poor/bad/unadmirable Gorean.

To give an example:

Most Goreans/Atheist hold the common value that it's not okay to steal your neighbors tv. They hold this value for reasons that are directly based on their believe system as a Gorean/Atheist. However, somebody else stealing their neighbors tv does not invalidate that person from being a Gorean/Atheist. It might make them a poor example of a Gorean/Atheist, one to not aspire to emulate or live up to, but the act of stealing the tv in and of itself does not invalidate their Goreaness/Atheism, even if not stealing your neighbors tv is a value most Goreans/Atheist hold in common, derived directly from their Gorean/Atheist ethical systems.

However, somebody putting external influence above their own cannot be Gorean. It wouldn't be a tell of them being a poor example of a Gorean, it would invalidate their claim to being Gorean, just like an Atheist believing in God would invalidate their claim of being Atheist.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 12:50:11 PM   
Bhruic


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Can you clarify what is meant by internal vs. external "input"?

Input... by definition, comes from without, so seems a confusing term here.

Do you mean, by "internal input", that such a person relies entirely on their own perception of the world to form their opinions, and is entirely unaffected by any external data or opinions?

It kinda sounds like that is what you are saying, but that is such a flawed approach to life, I assume I misunderstand.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 1:03:39 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Do you mean, by "internal input", that such a person relies entirely on their own perception of the world to form their opinions, and is entirely unaffected by any external data or opinions?



No, sorry, that's not what I meant, but I can see how it would come across like that.

I meant by internal versus external input "Holding ones own, internal, values, above the values of others, even if negative consequences ensue; or above external stimuli". That doesn't mean that external input isn't factored in. Of course it is, very heavily so even. But that external input will not cause a compromise of one's own internal value system when the two are in direct contradiction to each other.

A Gorean men leaving for work who is asked by his son to take the day off to go fishing might very well consider his son's input and decide that he'll cancel the meeting in favor of spending time with his son. In fact, he may be honor bound to do so if his value system dictates that his son in such queries comes before his work. On the other hand he may refuse, again honor bound, if his value system dictates that his work in such situations comes before his son. However, in either case, he will take all external input available, and then make the decision purely based on what his internal codes say about the situation... even if that means losing his job... or losing his son. And even if either one of those consequences would actually be on the line, he still wouldn't see himself as 'not having a choice'.

It basically comes down to internal consistency. If a Gorean held (for example) that "Stealing your neighbor's tv is immoral, against the codes, and not excusable in any situation" then they would not do so. It didn't matter if you held a gun to their head and said "Steal the tv or I'll shoot you (or your wife, or your daughter, etc)". The would not compromise their value that stealing the tv is against immoral, no matter what the cost was to themselves.

If a Gorean in that situation, out of fear, etc, would succumb to the external pressure anyways, and steal the tv, they would later claim: "I made a choice, and I made the wrong one". They would consider it despicable, and unGorean behavior. Just like a lapsed Atheist, who in a moment of drunken stupor, confessed to love God, would later consider that dispicable, unAtheist behavior.

On the other hand, the average person in that situation, would compromise their values that it was immoral to steal the tv, and later say "I did not have a choice, there was a gun against my head. I made the only (best) choice I could, considering the circumstances" even though stealing the tv clearly went against what they held (and currently hold) as dishonorable, immoral behavior.

It's not that Goreans don't factor in what goes on externally, what pressures they're under, what the opinion of others is. It's just that Goreans believe that there is no circumstance in which it is excusable for such external input to entice them to violate their own codes.

Anybody who does not believe that cannot be Gorean (although it's possible to believe that and not be Gorean, depending on the reasons why one believes it, as the reasons Goreans believe it stems directly from Home Stone morality).


< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 5/8/2016 1:08:06 PM >


_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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