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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 1:56:30 PM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

It basically comes down to internal consistency. If a Gorean held (for example) that "Stealing your neighbor's tv is immoral, against the codes, and not excusable in any situation" then they would not do so. It didn't matter if you held a gun to their head and said "Steal the tv or I'll shoot you (or your wife, or your daughter, etc)". The would not compromise their value that stealing the tv is against immoral, no matter what the cost was to themselves.




Is protecting one's family not part of the Gorean codes? Is it really as simple, for a Gorean, as letting your family die so that you don't, at least, violate your code against theft?

Is a Gorean really never in the position of having to make a choice that will violate one the codes? That's pretty hard to believe.

And if an external stimulus, like a gun to your child's head, forces that choice... then you were pretty much forced to choose, however you might wish to phrase it.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/8/2016 1:57:33 PM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 2:14:16 PM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


If a Gorean in that situation, out of fear, etc, would succumb to the external pressure anyways, and steal the tv, they would later claim: "I made a choice, and I made the wrong one". They would consider it despicable, and unGorean behavior. Just like a lapsed Atheist, who in a moment of drunken stupor, confessed to love God, would later consider that dispicable, unAtheist behavior.




I think a more reasonable analogy would be if an Atheist was forced to say they believed in god, because someone had a gun to their child's head and would kill the child if they didn't. Any reasonable and ethical person would sacrifice one core principle, in order to uphold the greater core principle of protecting one's child.

If it was just a gun to their own head, then they are at liberty to sacrifice their own life for the sake of their core principles... but sacrificing others for your principles is repugnant.

Tangentially... isn't stealing a home stone, according to the books, one of the most commendable things a Gorean can do???

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/8/2016 2:19:38 PM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 8:05:20 PM   
Malkinius


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Bhruic....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
I think a more reasonable analogy would be if an Atheist was forced to say they believed in god, because someone had a gun to their child's head and would kill the child if they didn't. Any reasonable and ethical person would sacrifice one core principle, in order to uphold the greater core principle of protecting one's child.

If it was just a gun to their own head, then they are at liberty to sacrifice their own life for the sake of their core principles... but sacrificing others for your principles is repugnant.

Tangentially... isn't stealing a home stone, according to the books, one of the most commendable things a Gorean can do???


Now you are starting to understand but are not quiet there yet. You are wrong about some people feeling it correct to sacrifice the lives of others for their beliefs. It may be repugnant to you and your beliefs but not to theirs. Think of all the people who create and set of IED's against not just military people but anyone they don't like or disagree with. Even the suicide bombers are in fact killing others because they believe in a different way than they do. In their system, they are doing the correct thing.

In your example, if the Gorean said, I will say it but I will be speaking a lie and all will know it and I will say that I am lying in order to save another. What then? The gunman has the statement but it is stated to be a lie. He has nothing. Or, the Gorean might say, I will say it and then I will kill you. Or, the Gorean might say, I will not say it and then I will kill you. In all those cases, the gunman does not get what they want.

Let me give you a Gorean's example. This comes from some things that I have thought about due to things which happened in the past and my line of work.

Some airplane hijackers have held someone, usually a flight attendant hostage, to get the passengers and the crew to do what they want. They threatened to kill them unless they got whatever. My response to this is to do my best to be the first one to the hostage taker and let them know the following. You may kill the hostage and while you are doing so, I will kill you. You may try to do so and fail and while you are doing so, I will kill you. You may release them and try to kill me and I will kill you. In all cases you will die. Or, you may release them, surrender and live. They now have the choice as to whether or not to believe me. If they want to die, I will kill them and they don't get what they want. If they want to live, I will either kill them or they will surrender and in both cases, they don't get what they want. This was my choice after 9/11 and I was on a plane that someone was trying to hijack. The hijacker now has to face failure and death or maybe they can kill me or I can't kill them but they still are realizing that they are going to fail. They now have the live or die choice. This is not uniquely a Gorean's choice, but it is this Gorean's response. The average person will still let someone else face the guy because of whatever reason.

On another point. Goreans can be affected by outside things beyond our ability control. Why are you all wet? It was raining. <grins> Yes, we have the choice to be out in...or to get out of the rain....but in the rain we get wet just like everyone else. <grins>

Stealing the Home Stone of an ENEMY city is in effect an act of war. There is nothing dishonorable about committing a legal act of war against an enemy. Or, in Tarl's case, stopping someone who was preparing to attack your city and thus preventing a war. He accepted the consequences of his action. That is very Gorean.

This has turned into a very good discussion. Thank you.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/8/2016 9:20:12 PM   
Malkinius


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Bhruic.....

You asked, "What is the opposite of a Gorean?" The standard and automatic answer is a slave.

That is because by the nature of their submission to the will of another, they can not freely decide some things for themselves. Their owner's choices and will overrides their choices and will. Or, they choose to no longer be a slave and then may be Gorean. This is the general consensus but there are always some who disagree...usually those who identify as a slave.

It is a very good question if you ask what sort of free person is the opposite of a Gorean.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/9/2016 6:11:49 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Bhruic....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
I think a more reasonable analogy would be if an Atheist was forced to say they believed in god, because someone had a gun to their child's head and would kill the child if they didn't. Any reasonable and ethical person would sacrifice one core principle, in order to uphold the greater core principle of protecting one's child.

If it was just a gun to their own head, then they are at liberty to sacrifice their own life for the sake of their core principles... but sacrificing others for your principles is repugnant.

Tangentially... isn't stealing a home stone, according to the books, one of the most commendable things a Gorean can do???


Now you are starting to understand but are not quiet there yet. You are wrong about some people feeling it correct to sacrifice the lives of others for their beliefs. It may be repugnant to you and your beliefs but not to theirs. Think of all the people who create and set of IED's against not just military people but anyone they don't like or disagree with. Even the suicide bombers are in fact killing others because they believe in a different way than they do. In their system, they are doing the correct thing.



I'm sorry Malkinius, but collateral damage in war is something different from sacrificing your children for your beliefs. I know that there are some religious groups who will do it, and it is still repugnant. Even in war, killing non combatants is abhorrent. Suicide bombers are another thing I guess, but if you are saying that Gorean ideals align with those of Islamic Jihadists...well...

quote:


In your example, if the Gorean said, I will say it but I will be speaking a lie and all will know it and I will say that I am lying in order to save another. What then? The gunman has the statement but it is stated to be a lie. He has nothing. Or, the Gorean might say, I will say it and then I will kill you. Or, the Gorean might say, I will not say it and then I will kill you. In all those cases, the gunman does not get what they want.

Let me give you a Gorean's example. This comes from some things that I have thought about due to things which happened in the past and my line of work.

Some airplane hijackers have held someone, usually a flight attendant hostage, to get the passengers and the crew to do what they want. They threatened to kill them unless they got whatever. My response to this is to do my best to be the first one to the hostage taker and let them know the following. You may kill the hostage and while you are doing so, I will kill you. You may try to do so and fail and while you are doing so, I will kill you. You may release them and try to kill me and I will kill you. In all cases you will die. Or, you may release them, surrender and live. They now have the choice as to whether or not to believe me. If they want to die, I will kill them and they don't get what they want. If they want to live, I will either kill them or they will surrender and in both cases, they don't get what they want. This was my choice after 9/11 and I was on a plane that someone was trying to hijack. The hijacker now has to face failure and death or maybe they can kill me or I can't kill them but they still are realizing that they are going to fail. They now have the live or die choice. This is not uniquely a Gorean's choice, but it is this Gorean's response. The average person will still let someone else face the guy because of whatever reason.


Interesting thought experiment, but... presumably the hostage taker has a weapon, and you do not. How exactly did you plan to make good on your threat to kill the hostage taker???

You seem to be saying that you have actually been in this exact scenario. What then did you actually do? Did you attack the Hijacker? Or did you come up with this thought experiment in safety, after the events were over?

quote:



On another point. Goreans can be affected by outside things beyond our ability control. Why are you all wet? It was raining. <grins> Yes, we have the choice to be out in...or to get out of the rain....but in the rain we get wet just like everyone else. <grins>

Stealing the Home Stone of an ENEMY city is in effect an act of war. There is nothing dishonorable about committing a legal act of war against an enemy. Or, in Tarl's case, stopping someone who was preparing to attack your city and thus preventing a war. He accepted the consequences of his action. That is very Gorean.

This has turned into a very good discussion. Thank you.

Malkinius of Chicago


So Goreans... like regular folks, can rationalize stealing when it suits them :)

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/9/2016 6:26:47 AM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/9/2016 6:18:03 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Bhruic.....

You asked, "What is the opposite of a Gorean?" The standard and automatic answer is a slave.

That is because by the nature of their submission to the will of another, they can not freely decide some things for themselves. Their owner's choices and will overrides their choices and will. Or, they choose to no longer be a slave and then may be Gorean. This is the general consensus but there are always some who disagree...usually those who identify as a slave.

It is a very good question if you ask what sort of free person is the opposite of a Gorean.

Malkinius of Chicago


I have met many more slaves who identify as Gorean than non slaves. If definitions of social ideas are arrived at by consensus, then your definition may be in the minority. The idea that being Gorean has nothing at all to do with slaves is something I have only ever heard from you. That may be due only to my limited exposure though.

Clearly, from the books, slaves ARE part of Gorean culture... as are many other types of people, and philosophies. As you have argued in other threads, not every Gorean has to be a "warrior".

When you say "Gorean" are you referring only to an elitist class of Gorean culture???

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/9/2016 6:19:52 AM >


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/10/2016 1:48:46 AM   
Malkinius


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Bhruic.....

No, I have not been in that exact situation before. I assume the attacker/hostage taker has a weapon and I have none or none easily recognizable as a weapon. It is the question of why the little, old Chinaman is not afraid of the hulking brute with a gun? His question has to be, why do I come to him saying that other than surrender, whatever he does, he will die and fail and I obviously believe it? I didn't say I would succeed. I want him to believe I will succeed and then I probably will win. Besides, I fight dirty. <grins> The actuality is that he could kill the hostage and then me. However, most terrorists, especially the ones sent out on suicide missions, are not trained combatants. I taught sword fighting for about 30+ years. My style, even unarmed, is not what people would expect an old guy like me to do. And yes, sometimes you direct a blade into if that is what it takes to beat your opponent. Note the direct...if you are going to get cut or stabbed, make it go where it will do you the least damage and can bind their blade. Or...so I was taught in a knife fighting class. You expect to get cut. If you are ready for it you can keep going and they are open for whatever I do. So yes, I could do more than expected which is why I would do it...plus, better I go than than someone young with a family. They can have him while he is tangled up with me. And if I am bluffing...and he folds, I win. That is still very Gorean.

Terrorists can have traits we consider good. They can be brave. They can have the faith that they are doing the right thing by their rules, religion, ethics, etc. Those things can be very Gorean. It doesn't make them Gorean, but someone who's beliefs you dispose can be acting rationally, ethically and properly by their own system. If they really are, then they are worth of respect for doing what they believe is right. The fact that doing what you believe is right is also considered a good and proper thing by Goreans does not make whatever someone is doing or the someone Gorean.

You find more slaves who identify as a kajira because of several reasons. First, more women than men, according to several of the publishers, bought the Gor books. Second, deep down they are an adventure romance and the romantic part of it appeals more to women than men. Third, more women want to be submissive to a strong man than there are men strong enough to bring out that submission. Many men are now taught to bring out their 'feminine' side and being a manly man is used as an insult and derided. That was very true as Norman wrote the books when those beliefs were being heavily pushed and forced on people especially in western cultures. So where there are people who are strong enough to do the work to understand and willing to sacrifice what it takes to live as a Gorean...and yes, in our culture, it does mean something of a sacrifice....AND...they want to be involved with consensual slavery...they can find as many slaves as they want if they are willing to take the time to prove what they are and get it known. We used to estimate ten would be slaves to every man who came close to actually being Gorean. I have no clue how correct that percentage was or is but it really is several to one. I know a number of men who are either owning or caring for multiple slaves offline and in their homes either full or part time because there are not enough Gorean men in the area to go around for the number of would be kajira.

Slaves are part of the culture. We all know that. It is very true in the books and somewhat true on Earth. However, it is NOT a requirement to be Gorean to own a slave or slaves. That is all it comes down to. Call it one of those optional packages that comes with the new...way of living. <grins>

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/10/2016 6:42:18 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Bhruic.....

No, I have not been in that exact situation before.


Oh, sorry. This confused me...

quote:



This was my choice after 9/11 and I was on a plane that someone was trying to hijack.



I confess that sometimes I find your grammar and lack of punctuation confusing.


quote:



Terrorists can have traits we consider good. They can be brave. They can have the faith that they are doing the right thing by their rules, religion, ethics, etc. Those things can be very Gorean. It doesn't make them Gorean, but someone who's beliefs you dispose can be acting rationally, ethically and properly by their own system. If they really are, then they are worth of respect for doing what they believe is right. The fact that doing what you believe is right is also considered a good and proper thing by Goreans does not make whatever someone is doing or the someone Gorean.



I think it is terribly misguided to think that the belief that one is right makes one virtuous, regardless of what that belief is, or what is done with it. Its rather solipsistic, and horrible atrocities have been, and continue to be, perpetrated in the world based on this misguided philosophy. Most would consider it, at best, a character flaw, and at worst, a kind of mental illness.

quote:


You find more slaves who identify as a kajira because of several reasons. First, more women than men, according to several of the publishers, bought the Gor books. Second, deep down they are an adventure romance and the romantic part of it appeals more to women than men. Third, more women want to be submissive to a strong man than there are men strong enough to bring out that submission. Many men are now taught to bring out their 'feminine' side and being a manly man is used as an insult and derided. That was very true as Norman wrote the books when those beliefs were being heavily pushed and forced on people especially in western cultures. So where there are people who are strong enough to do the work to understand and willing to sacrifice what it takes to live as a Gorean...and yes, in our culture, it does mean something of a sacrifice....AND...they want to be involved with consensual slavery...they can find as many slaves as they want if they are willing to take the time to prove what they are and get it known. We used to estimate ten would be slaves to every man who came close to actually being Gorean. I have no clue how correct that percentage was or is but it really is several to one. I know a number of men who are either owning or caring for multiple slaves offline and in their homes either full or part time because there are not enough Gorean men in the area to go around for the number of would be kajira.

Slaves are part of the culture. We all know that. It is very true in the books and somewhat true on Earth. However, it is NOT a requirement to be Gorean to own a slave or slaves. That is all it comes down to. Call it one of those optional packages that comes with the new...way of living. <grins>

Malkinius of Chicago


This is a rather long answer to a question I didn't ask. I did not suggest that to be Gorean you must own a slave. You suggested that "Slave" was the opposite of "Gorean"... meaning that those who identify as slaves can not be Gorean. This surprised me, since you are essentially dismissing more than half of the Gorean community as invalid, and falsely claiming to be Gorean.


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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/10/2016 7:14:07 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

The opposite of a Gorean is somebody whose greatest influence in decision making is things external to themselves.



Isn't the entire philosophy of Gor influenced by something external to its practitioners... namely, the books???

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/12/2016 6:10:09 AM   
Malkinius


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Bhruic.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
Isn't the entire philosophy of Gor influenced by something external to its practitioners... namely, the books???


So are Christians, Muslims, Jews, Marxists, Objectivists, Buddhists, Hindus and members of many other religions, political, philosophical and just strange groups. Some times it is TV shows or movies. True....at least up to a point. But not, for any of those groups, complete in and of itself.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Living vs. role play - 5/13/2016 8:12:02 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Bhruic.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
Isn't the entire philosophy of Gor influenced by something external to its practitioners... namely, the books???


So are Christians, Muslims, Jews, Marxists, Objectivists, Buddhists, Hindus and members of many other religions, political, philosophical and just strange groups. Some times it is TV shows or movies. True....at least up to a point. But not, for any of those groups, complete in and of itself.

Malkinius of Chicago


Indeed... religious people, as a group, conform their thoughts and decision making to be in accordance with an outside influence... some book they read. They are not independent thinkers, they think what they are told to think... without even questioning the validity of the source.

Goreans seem no different. Their thinking is informed by the books, and they seem to argue tirelessly over interpretation.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 8/25/2016 5:55:55 AM   
PakiLadki


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I believe choosing to live Gorean lifestyle is a philosophy. Some find it acceptable, and it works for them, for others it doesn't. I don't think Goreans are interested in convincing others to follow the lifestyle. What I am interested to know from those who follow the Gorean principles: Is it possible to live gorean lifestyle but not necessarily follow every code laid out in the books? Can one be considered gorean simply by following the same philosophy with their own rules?

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RE: Living vs. role play - 8/25/2016 4:32:24 PM   
Malkinius


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PakiLadki....

The codes are Caste Codes of the various Gorean castes. They may or may not exemplify something of the Gorean philosophy. The Warrior code about having to kill someone who submits to you as slave you don't want would never exist for someone in the Caste of Slavers. That would be very much against whatever other codes they might have. Give up free merchandise? Really? I don't think so. <grins> The philosophy gives you morals and ethics to live by, not the codes. You live by the philosophy as best you can and the longer you do it the easier it becomes.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Living vs. role play - 8/29/2016 11:14:05 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PakiLadki

I believe choosing to live Gorean lifestyle is a philosophy. Some find it acceptable, and it works for them, for others it doesn't. I don't think Goreans are interested in convincing others to follow the lifestyle. What I am interested to know from those who follow the Gorean principles: Is it possible to live gorean lifestyle but not necessarily follow every code laid out in the books? Can one be considered gorean simply by following the same philosophy with their own rules?

It's not a matter of following paint by numbers -- there's no thinking/philosophy in that.

Consider it this way. Our society is often not living its potential fulfillment, either as individuals or collectively, in part because our concept of ourselves and our behavior is at odds with our own natures and order of nature -- and that a better way is possible. That's the baseline thesis.

From there, it's not a matter of right/wrong, do it this way everybody. Rather, it's about living with intention and taking responsibility for one's actions/choices on a consistent basis.

As Malkinius noted, a warrior isn't going to have the same codes as, say, the thieves. But thieves can depend on each other to live and act according to their code, and to accept the consequences when things go sideways. When we do this, our lives become focused, purposeful, and self-directed in a way that reflects the reality of the world in which we live.

Far too many people in our modern society are all about "only me" and then complain they aren't taken seriously. Or they complain they don't have opportunities when they've done nothing sufficient to create and take advantage of those possibilities. Or -- and this includes many people who consider themselves moral -- their "codes" continually shift depending on the situation and what they think serves them best at any given moment, making up excuses and justifications they then convince themselves to believe to pretend they actually have a foundation for their thoughts, approaches, and lives.

It's about living a life of balance, completeness, honesty and honor--yes, even honor among thieves--without apology or excuse, but with accepting the full package that comes with those life choices.

That's living "Gorean." Yes, there are other labels we could give it.


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RE: Living vs. role play - 8/30/2016 2:48:47 PM   
eliseobeys


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Some of the most Gorean Goreans I know are kajira.



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"The pride of a free woman is the pride of a woman who feels herself to be the equal of a man.
The pride of the slave girl is the pride of the girl who knows that no other woman is the equal of herself.' "

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RE: Living vs. role play - 8/30/2016 8:01:56 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eliseobeys

Some of the most Gorean Goreans I know are kajira.




So absolutely TRUE!

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RE: Living vs. role play - 8/31/2016 11:17:52 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eliseobeys

Some of the most Gorean Goreans I know are kajira.



Most of the people concerned about who are the most Gorean Goreans are not folks generally recognized as particularly Gorean.

Most of the folks I'd consider "Gorean" don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks.





< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/31/2016 11:18:46 AM >

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RE: Living vs. role play - 8/31/2016 1:45:38 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: eliseobeys

Some of the most Gorean Goreans I know are kajira.


.

Most of the folks I'd consider "Gorean" don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks.






...Yes that is how they can continue to live their delusion for years on end.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 8/31/2016 1:56:55 PM   
Musicmystery


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If living with intention and taking responsibility for one's actions/choices on a consistent basis is "delusion," then the world could use more delusion.

And a few less self-righteous posters.

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RE: Living vs. role play - 8/31/2016 4:00:02 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Most of the folks I'd consider "Gorean" don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
... the world could use ...
.... a few less self-righteous posters.



Definition of self- righteous:

adjective
1.
confident of one's own righteousness, especially when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.


< Message edited by tamaka -- 8/31/2016 4:09:15 PM >

(in reply to tamaka)
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