From: Toronto, Canada
I think a more reasonable analogy would be if an Atheist was forced to say they believed in god, because someone had a gun to their child's head and would kill the child if they didn't. Any reasonable and ethical person would sacrifice one core principle, in order to uphold the greater core principle of protecting one's child.
If it was just a gun to their own head, then they are at liberty to sacrifice their own life for the sake of their core principles... but sacrificing others for your principles is repugnant.
Tangentially... isn't stealing a home stone, according to the books, one of the most commendable things a Gorean can do???
Now you are starting to understand but are not quiet there yet. You are wrong about some people feeling it correct to sacrifice the lives of others for their beliefs. It may be repugnant to you and your beliefs but not to theirs. Think of all the people who create and set of IED's against not just military people but anyone they don't like or disagree with. Even the suicide bombers are in fact killing others because they believe in a different way than they do. In their system, they are doing the correct thing.
I'm sorry Malkinius, but collateral damage in war is something different from sacrificing your children for your beliefs. I know that there are some religious groups who will do it, and it is still repugnant. Even in war, killing non combatants is abhorrent. Suicide bombers are another thing I guess, but if you are saying that Gorean ideals align with those of Islamic Jihadists...well...
In your example, if the Gorean said, I will say it but I will be speaking a lie and all will know it and I will say that I am lying in order to save another. What then? The gunman has the statement but it is stated to be a lie. He has nothing. Or, the Gorean might say, I will say it and then I will kill you. Or, the Gorean might say, I will not say it and then I will kill you. In all those cases, the gunman does not get what they want.
Let me give you a Gorean's example. This comes from some things that I have thought about due to things which happened in the past and my line of work.
Some airplane hijackers have held someone, usually a flight attendant hostage, to get the passengers and the crew to do what they want. They threatened to kill them unless they got whatever. My response to this is to do my best to be the first one to the hostage taker and let them know the following. You may kill the hostage and while you are doing so, I will kill you. You may try to do so and fail and while you are doing so, I will kill you. You may release them and try to kill me and I will kill you. In all cases you will die. Or, you may release them, surrender and live. They now have the choice as to whether or not to believe me. If they want to die, I will kill them and they don't get what they want. If they want to live, I will either kill them or they will surrender and in both cases, they don't get what they want. This was my choice after 9/11 and I was on a plane that someone was trying to hijack. The hijacker now has to face failure and death or maybe they can kill me or I can't kill them but they still are realizing that they are going to fail. They now have the live or die choice. This is not uniquely a Gorean's choice, but it is this Gorean's response. The average person will still let someone else face the guy because of whatever reason.
Interesting thought experiment, but... presumably the hostage taker has a weapon, and you do not. How exactly did you plan to make good on your threat to kill the hostage taker???
You seem to be saying that you have actually been in this exact scenario. What then did you actually do? Did you attack the Hijacker? Or did you come up with this thought experiment in safety, after the events were over?
On another point. Goreans can be affected by outside things beyond our ability control. Why are you all wet? It was raining. <grins> Yes, we have the choice to be out in...or to get out of the rain....but in the rain we get wet just like everyone else. <grins>
Stealing the Home Stone of an ENEMY city is in effect an act of war. There is nothing dishonorable about committing a legal act of war against an enemy. Or, in Tarl's case, stopping someone who was preparing to attack your city and thus preventing a war. He accepted the consequences of his action. That is very Gorean.
This has turned into a very good discussion. Thank you.
Malkinius of Chicago
So Goreans... like regular folks, can rationalize stealing when it suits them :)
< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/9/2016 6:26:47 AM >