RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/4/2016 7:05:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
ORIGINAL: thompsonx

(between my late father, me, brother...we've have owned Mercedes for over 50 years)

I have a 116 and a 123, both diesel I like them both but compared to my 505 peugeot diesel they are uncomfortable gutless slugs.

Father had one stint with a diesel, 300D it was his last. Not bad for a 4 dr. sedan but smelly and dirty. It was a 250S before that and a 300S or S300 I believe after that and an E320 after that and that's also what I had until I cam out to Vegas. E series are very fine cars and I will soon get another. I have my eye on a E420 but may splurge on a S400 or 450 whatever.

Mine was a 1994 with 250,000 miles on it that still ran like a fucking race car but the A/C went with a $1,500-$2,000 (leak inside) repair job plus the paint on the roof and hood was a disaster area and the headliner was coming down, etc., etc.. Clearly wasn't worth it to bring 2500 miles.


I was reading the other day that the 450 that the yankees gave joe dimaggio for the 50th anniversary of his 41 season went for a mear $12k with only about 60,000 miles on it. Special yankee paint job and all the provonance to show it was the dimaggio car. Too kewel.

$12K was a fucking steal. Drive that sucker for a few years and auction it off and make money. 60,000 miles for a Mercedes is just getting started.



thompsonx -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/4/2016 7:33:44 AM)


ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

$12K was a fucking steal. Drive that sucker for a few years and auction it off and make money. 60,000 miles for a Mercedes is just getting started.

Not just a low mileage well maintained high end mercedes...but the special yankee paint job and the provonance of it having been owned only by #5.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/4/2016 2:24:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
to some extent ive got a foot in both camps too. but I think my bottom line is letting so many kids into college when they are academically unfit for it is ultimately damaging to the kid, the college and the people who are indeed there to learn and who are capable of doing so.
I suppose in that regard I view college not as an obligatory extension of high school where everyone can go, but rather, like a selective place that requires certain standards before being allowed the privilege---like employment, or a place on an athletic team that has athletic standards and roster limits.
that said, im not saying they necessarily shouldn't be allowed but id love to see a few things done differently. at the very least id love to see admission standards for colleges raised across the board where if youre not in the top x % of your class senior year, your application is deferred until such a time that those presumed (and fairly accurate accessed actually) deficiencies are addressed.
generally speaking, those who are academically unfit, are also psychologically unfit for college, and they make teaching and the classroom a nightmare.


That policy would have prevented my Dad from going to college. He was a C-student in school, but buckled down and was an A-student in college. His pre-college grades were due more to him having priorities other than grades. In college, grades were the important thing for him.

People should have the freedom to make their lives the best they can.



bounty44 -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/5/2016 3:39:19 PM)

again---not prevent, delay.

I do indeed believe people should be allowed to chase their dreams and pursue a better life---and in that regard, its arguable, and perhaps morally incumbent on the dream makers and better life givers to work on behalf of the dreamers and better life seekers by sometimes saying, not yet, wait and get yourself ready.

your father's story is a good one, but generally speaking, those are relatively rare exceptions. high school gpa and sat/atc scores are fairly good predictors of success in college. but that said, there most certainly could be other criteria than just grades in order to set standards.

you know im all for freedom, right up until it harms other people, which is all too often what goes on in the case of academically unfit people being in college with others who are there to learn.

there's also an ethical matter involved on behalf of colleges admitting students who they have a fairly good idea wont be succeeding. we'll admit you, we'll take your dollars, and the federal assistance on your behalf, and then when you flunk out, or don't graduate---gee those are the breaks and its all on you, too bad.

having spent most of my adult life in higher education in one form or another, im half tempted to say id support a bill that raised the legal age of adulthood to 21 and then some of my paternalism/libertarian tensions would lessen.




thompsonx -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/5/2016 4:12:52 PM)


ORIGINAL: bounty44

your father's story is a good one, but generally speaking, those are relatively rare exceptions. high school gpa and sat/atc scores are fairly good predictors of success in college. but that said, there most certainly could be other criteria than just grades in order to set standards.

The g.i bill subjects this drivel to its obvious destination...the trash pile.


having spent most of my adult life in higher education in one form or another,


It is abundantly clear that your time spent in institutions of higher learning was either in house keeping or food service.





tj444 -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/6/2016 1:23:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Are you saying that the purpose of public education is to produce drones/worker bees?


of course it is.. its actually two-pronged, as its also a glorified babysitting service so mommy and daddy can be productive drones/worker bees without having to concern themselves with their kids during daytime work hours.. when i was a kid in junior high (middle school to you) I thought that 12 years of schooling could be cut down to half that.. it was frustrating for me to go back to school after summer and spend the first 2 months relearning stuff we learned the previous year (which apparently the school system thought we totally forgot over the summer).. imo school was a lot of wasted time that wasnt necessary.. And going to college/Uni is the same thing, the kids go to become better drones/worker bees and they get the privilege of being tens of thousands of dollars in debt as well.. The only thing you get for all that money is a piece of paper that says you made it thru all that crap when ya coulda just bought the overpriced textbooks for a hellava lot less..

btw, for those interested/amused, Martin Shkreli (the Pharma bad boy that massively hiked up his drug prices- the most hated man in the US) has been giving Chemisty & Finance lessons on youtube.. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8gjB1PSXv_oAUSAQ16S0fA/videos [:D]



PeonForHer -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/6/2016 2:40:28 PM)

quote:

Are you saying that the purpose of public education is to produce drones/worker bees?


Another one of its crucial purposes is to be the scapegoat for all society's ills. Governments can't blame parents for the reprehensible behaviour of kids and young people (whatever is considered reprehensible at any given time), because parents are also voters and this would piss them off. Parents themselves are also always perfect, of course, so they don't tend to find themselves at fault for having produced losers and/or monsters. Finally, it can't possibly be any kid's fault that he/she has turned out badly.

There's a fundamentally different culture *behind* the way the education of children is treated in Finland, versus that of the UK - and many other countries, so it seems. The same is true of the educators working in said education systems. The moment a bright and conscientious young person hears the old and much-loved line 'those that can, do, those that can't, teach' - and sees the nods and smiles around the room - that bright and conscientious young person thinks, 'Fuck that for a lark. I'm not going into teaching, to be both underpaid *and* slagged off for the rest of my working life. Governments, parents and kids can find someone else to kick around'. Well, that's what I thought, anyway, after leaving uni and having considered all my options.




thompsonx -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/6/2016 5:17:39 PM)


ORIGINAL: tj444
ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Are you saying that the purpose of public education is to produce drones/worker bees?


of course it is.. its actually two-pronged, as its also a glorified babysitting service so mommy and daddy can be productive drones/worker bees without having to concern themselves with their kids during daytime work hours.. when i was a kid in junior high (middle school to you) I thought that 12 years of schooling could be cut down to half that.. it was frustrating for me to go back to school after summer and spend the first 2 months relearning stuff we learned the previous year (which apparently the school system thought we totally forgot over the summer).. imo school was a lot of wasted time that wasnt necessary.. And going to college/Uni is the same thing, the kids go to become better drones/worker bees and they get the privilege of being tens of thousands of dollars in debt as well.. The only thing you get for all that money is a piece of paper that says you made it thru all that crap when ya coulda just bought the overpriced textbooks for a hellava lot less..

I copied this from the harvard college catalog 1969.
"The purpose of a college education is to give the student the necessary depth and breadth of knowledge to make them a productive member of society."
I was taken by the lack of mention of getting a job or making money...but then I got that book a long time ago.



Edwurde -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 6:41:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwurde
... idiotic US companies insist on requiring a Bachelors degree to even fill out an application, to pay you $12 an hour to start (or in the SE, 9-10 to start).


Educational requirements are tools for culling the herd of applicants. If a company likes your resume, they'll invite you for an interview, even if you don't have the "required" degree. Plus, if they don't like you for some reason that has anti-discrimination laws about, ifyou don't have a degree, they have that requirement they can use to not hire you. Additionally, many places who require a degree don't necessarily care that the degree isn't in the area of the job interviewed for. Obviously, the more technical the job, the more important it is that the degree is in the same field.

Having a degree demonstrates a certain amount of discipline, motivation, determination, and "stick-to-it-iveness."


Well, there you have it. You have laid out the situation perfectly. German companies are only interested in your skill set (I am over-simplifying here, but to the point ...). Because of their educational system, there is a lot more employers can assume on that point than is the case in the US.

Not to say that employers in the US aren't persnickety about this or another particular experience with whatever C machine or C program skills, but the deutsche (German) Edu system doesn't toss you out with a "HS Education" or a "College Education," and so easily toss off the life of the nation like that. (What's taught in econ classes in the US about 'human capital', they conveniently overlook what better examples [numerous as they are] existing elsewhere, just like healthcare).

There (Germany, and others), it's about how much you know what you're doing, at whatever level, with educational and apprentice certificates and recommendations all built in, as a matter of course (mostly). In the US, it's much more about how well you jump through hoops, at the snap of a finger. Just as you explained. As you so coherently conveyed, the US seemingly takes it as a point of pride that our educational system is constructed in such way as to stomp on carpenters, while rewarding those who put whatever better brains they were born with to purpose of financial constructs to steal homes and jobs from 10 million people.

Again, Germany exports essentially as much does the US (*total*, not net), with 27% of the population.

Figure out which system or, more importantly, the mindset behind it, works better.




Termyn8or -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 7:29:38 PM)

I have also noticed the lack of Germans complaining that their jobs are shipped off to China. A bunch of White people, very productive, who now consider a four day week full time. Some do bitch about not getting enough hours in their "McJobs" but that is probably the less skilled. I want to know who pays for their higher education, but remember, right out of high school they have more skills.

I am sure that US businesses have looked at their system and would be fine with copying it, and making some real money instead of paper money. I am sure at least a few of them know the difference. But really, the people and the government make more difference.

First of all, you go to China and talk to them, once they are convinced you got the money and are serious they will build roads and bridges, sewer systems and big power lines to service your factory. Tax abatement ? Why ? It is already low and you are getting labor dirt cheap and we are giving you what you want, yes dammit you are paying China taxes. But you will be glad to because we got people with a real education and at least a half decent work ethic. We also subsidize shipping. (they do) You pay taxes for that. you still come out ahead.

Over here, here's how it goes. You gotta grease a bunch of politicians to use eminent domain because as soon as you want the land people think it is worth fifty grand an acre. Once you get that done, you have to pay for the water and sewer lines and electric. If you want natural gas, best of luck. Then you pay millions to have a couple of hundred grand worth of building built and then have to grease a half dozen politicians and inspectors to let pass the mistakes that are not code.

Then you buy the machines for millions, when they could go for scrap prices because there is no industry here anymore, and then it gets shipped to you at like ten bucks a mile for each machine. then you need electricians at $75 an hour to hook up your machines. Then you have to buy the raw materials and if you want steel boy, you might as well get it from China, and THEN, shipping is not free anymore.

Then you have to find people who can do the job. You want them to make a part on a lathe when they can't even change a flat tire. They don't even understand that when a 10 amp fuse blows you do not put in a 20 amp. Simple jump starting a car is beyond their abilities. And you want them to do what ? They can't even balance their checkbook so you probably don't even want them in the office.

So you look for talent worldwide and find people you have to sponsor in on an H1B visa.

What the fuck is the point ? Just put the factory where the skill is.

There is alot more to this problem than just the government making it tax friendly to move out. Alot more. Like I said at some time or another, I went to school already knowing how to read and basic math. On a forum a school teacher responded and said "These kids don't even know colors and shapes". And as much as I am against them in Chicago making a hundred grand a year and not catching "This Is Are Story", I do realize that they are not given the best materials with which to work.

Know what, I am a dropout but I am pretty damn good. I can teach you more about electronics, mechanics and some physics than most any US public school teacher. Some of them do not even know what the equator is. If you don't know how to read, or understand numbers, I got nothing to work with. And people come fro US schools like that.

There is plenty of blame to go around. The teachers, the Parents, the government. All have run this shit into the ground. All you can do is teach your kids. And I remember being a part of this. Though I have no kids I was around them. One of my best buddies actually. We worked together at times and took the kids with us. He had been a truck driver and then his olady got a job with fantastic benefits and she told him to get off the road and then he took care of the kids. A househusband. (you know them big HUGE pieces of glass on some of the buildings in Chicago ? he brought them there)

Then he went into remodeling. the kids worked some. The elder boy graduated St. Ignatius magna cum something and went to UWM, on full scholarship I might add. In fact if I am not mistaken he has free education for life, any subject. His little sister who used to call me Uncle Terminator is now a nurse. So they did OK. Better than me. But we DID tech them to give the answer they wanted, even if it is wrong.

If I knew electronics was going to get like this I would have figured something else out. Actually I did, remodeling. But the problem with that is licensing and permits and all that shit. I just do it for people I know, keeps it simple. Problem is, for my limited field of customers, everything they want done is done.

Anyway, the first thing a school should do is to teach you how to learn. Open up that encyclopedia or dictionary. Read. People wrote that shit for a reason. Someone paid them to write it for a reason. Your Parents bought that book for a reason. Real research pays off if you know how to do it.

And know what I want to know ? How come the teacher's edition of the textbook has the answers ? Don't they know the answers ? Think about that.

A whole bunch of countries have better education than the US, I wish I had went to one of them. If I had better math skills I would be rich.

T^T



mnottertail -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 7:36:15 PM)

LOL. that is the stupidest shit you have ever posted, and you have posted some of the stupidest shit I have ever seen.



Edwurde -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 7:50:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: Edwurde

Just as they don't waste 12 years for plumbers and brick layers, they also don't waste a full 16 years of phenomenal educational cost on book keepers or C programmers or store managers, all of which idiotic US companies insist on requiring a Bachelors degree to even fill out an application, to pay you $12 an hour to start (or in the SE, 9-10 to start). Even as little as the US subsidizes higher education, that still amounts to an incredibly stupid low return on investment.

What do you think the purpose of a college education is?


That 'purpose' varies quite a bit from one country or one culture to the next, as I have laid out well enough for those who comprehend. I only laid out the difference between one and another, and how people in some culture vs. another deal with the situation, based upon how they feel about themselves to begin with.

But you are more than welcome to enlighten the rest of us as to just what that universal 'purpose' might, or should, be, if so inclined.



Termyn8or -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 7:51:13 PM)

Ron, from you I take that as a compliment.

How come you didn't call me a nutsucker ?

T^T



Edwurde -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 8:04:22 PM)

[



thompsonx -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 8:10:33 PM)


ORIGINAL: Edwurde
ORIGINAL: thompsonx


But you are more than welcome to enlighten the rest of us as to just what that universal 'purpose' might, or should, be, if so inclined.


I already have but for your edifiction I will repeat it.
I copied this from the harvard college catalog 1969.
"The purpose of a college education is to give the student the necessary depth and breadth of knowledge to make them a productive member of society."
I was taken by the lack of mention of getting a job or making money...but then I got that book a long time ago.



Edwurde -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 8:35:41 PM)

FR

If you aren't (at this point, if you don't live in the the US, please excuse us bowing down at this next term) "a business owner," then you are a "worker bee." (I know better now from all the Chinese and Indians in the hood how to bow to incomprehensible concepts than I ever did as a born Catholic).

That's it. Start to finish. No in-between.

A "business owner." So you are either that or a "worker bee," except that less than half the "business owners" never made it through school of any higher sort, nor could they. Who cares? The restaurants and the web designers come by the dozens, gone by the dozens, and formally what were "employees" are now "contractors."

I hire one other person, and try desperately to get billings to cover it, save to buy a restaurant, hire others, I'm at it 14 hours a day, ANYTHING to avoid being called a "worker bee."

That's the difference.

Between the US and Germany.

And most anybody else.



tj444 -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 8:43:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: tj444
ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Are you saying that the purpose of public education is to produce drones/worker bees?


of course it is.. its actually two-pronged, as its also a glorified babysitting service so mommy and daddy can be productive drones/worker bees without having to concern themselves with their kids during daytime work hours.. when i was a kid in junior high (middle school to you) I thought that 12 years of schooling could be cut down to half that.. it was frustrating for me to go back to school after summer and spend the first 2 months relearning stuff we learned the previous year (which apparently the school system thought we totally forgot over the summer).. imo school was a lot of wasted time that wasnt necessary.. And going to college/Uni is the same thing, the kids go to become better drones/worker bees and they get the privilege of being tens of thousands of dollars in debt as well.. The only thing you get for all that money is a piece of paper that says you made it thru all that crap when ya coulda just bought the overpriced textbooks for a hellava lot less..

I copied this from the harvard college catalog 1969.
"The purpose of a college education is to give the student the necessary depth and breadth of knowledge to make them a productive member of society."
I was taken by the lack of mention of getting a job or making money...but then I got that book a long time ago.


ummm... that is exactly what they mean by saying "productive".. it means to get a job/work.. for 99% of students that means working for the man.. Harvard's marketing dept makes it sound so altruistic.. [sm=rofl.gif]



Edwurde -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 9:08:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: Edwurde
ORIGINAL: thompsonx


But you are more than welcome to enlighten the rest of us as to just what that universal 'purpose' might, or should, be, if so inclined.


I already have but for your edifiction I will repeat it.
I copied this from the harvard college catalog 1969.
"The purpose of a college education is to give the student the necessary depth and breadth of knowledge to make them a productive member of society."
I was taken by the lack of mention of getting a job or making money...but then I got that book a long time ago.


That was from the '69 catalog. You nor I could imagine what an emetic (vomit inducing ) thing than might be imagined from whatever tripe would be in its place now.

Not against you, brother, though I think it's not an issue in any case.

I know that you have dealt with R/L actual battle against other brother humans, years ago, but I have dealt with academia, more recently. You can't imagine the horror.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the disposition of of a country by way of conveying supreme in idiocy in the media and in the university had some bit to do with Vietnam, and more recently with the ME fiasco. The uni journalism departments have only focused and expounded upon the "Drama!" aspect, surely having no notions of prevention, as at least a few did in the '50s-'70s ...

One would have thought that the first would have prevented the other. The fallacy of "Political Science." All the uni does is promulgate one fallacy after another, all the while being capable of much better. A part Germany cares somewhat more about (again being a bit over-simplified here) is the "much better" part. And that's what they focus in, at least as much as the "better worker bee" part.

Most people are born "worker bees," it doesn't matter. What matters is how you feel about your own people, whereby those worker bees get stomped or not. Bismark (advocating state support for many services) would be a an effing commie leftist, if here and now. This with the US and UK fighting laws (finally overturned in the '30's) against not just beating kids (that's at home, OK) but not on the latter part of their 14 hour shift. Then finally outlawing of kids working at all (which extremely pissed me off at age ten, [not knowing the history just then] but forget it),



thompsonx -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 10:18:16 PM)


ORIGINAL: tj444
ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ummm... that is exactly what they mean by saying "productive".. it means to get a job/work.. for 99% of students that means working for the man.. Harvard's marketing dept makes it sound so altruistic..

Perhaps that is what you mean by productive.



thompsonx -> RE: Why Finland has the best schools. (4/7/2016 10:25:18 PM)


ORIGINAL: Edwurde
ORIGINAL: thompsonx


But you are more than welcome to enlighten the rest of us as to just what that universal 'purpose' might, or should, be, if so inclined.


I already have but for your edifiction I will repeat it.
I copied this from the harvard college catalog 1969.
"The purpose of a college education is to give the student the necessary depth and breadth of knowledge to make them a productive member of society."
I was taken by the lack of mention of getting a job or making money...but then I got that book a long time ago.


That was from the '69 catalog. You nor I could imagine what an emetic (vomit inducing ) thing than might be imagined from whatever tripe would be in its place now.

I am pretty sure I mentioned that it was 1969(woodstock) and that was a long time ago. I have not been back to boston since so I have no clue what the catalog says today.

Not against you, brother, though I think it's not an issue in any case.

I know that you have dealt with R/L actual battle against other brother humans, years ago,

Hardly relevant to this discussion.

but I have dealt with academia, more recently. You can't imagine the horror.

Noam chomsky teaches just over in cambridge....

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the disposition of of a country by way of conveying supreme in idiocy in the media and in the university had some bit to do with Vietnam, and more recently with the ME fiasco. The uni journalism departments have only focused and expounded upon the "Drama!" aspect, surely having no notions of prevention, as at least a few did in the '50s-'70s ...


Why stop there...in this country it goes all the way back to the revolution. Nothing has changed except the names of the players.



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