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Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/23/2016 9:00:32 PM

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Animism, which predates organized religion, is the belief that there is no separation between the physical and the spiritual, between matter and spirit. But it is important to realize that such a statement would be incomprehensible to an animist.

We are frequently told that man invented gods to explain the processes of nature. But consider, for example, that you have a dog you've named Buster. You will say things like, "Buster didn't like that," or "Buster is full of energy today." When you speak in this way, you aren't talking about the "god" of the dog. Buster is the dog. That's his name. Similarly, giving a name to the sky is not inventing a "god" of the sky. Animism is not a form of theism.

The arc of history has been one of increasing abstraction and with it a growing split between the physical and the spiritual, between matter and spirit, culminating in the present Monotheistic view that the world exists in relation to God purely as an object; separate, created, material. Beliefs may vary in the degree to which they postulate spirit's presence in and ability to act upon the material world, but the fundamental split between matter and spirit remains absolute and inviolate.

Critics of Monotheism commonly attack its spiritual claims, but nobody attacks its conjoined material claim, that matter is nothing but insentient "stuff." Yet the fact remains that Monotheism stands or falls on that claim too, and it seems just as much a long shot.

We cannot explain how or why an assemblage of insentient material could or would have any subjective internal experience at all, let alone a rich emotional life and a sense of self. The idea that consciousness is an emergent quality of sufficiently complex systems begs the question. We have no idea how insentient chemicals could possibly develop a conscious awareness of their existence in the first place.

So starting fresh, without rancor or Bible quotes, what conclusion might a reasonable person suspect upon witnessing these assemblages of insentient materials building great cities and penning sonnets and symphonies? What are your private thoughts?

Ode to Joy

K.

RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/23/2016 9:27:45 PM

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Even if you leave religion out of it. Every culture have their beliefs of what is real and not real.

Malaysia alone believes so much in all the supernatural stuffs. Like they even believe they can capture the spirit of aborted babies and imprisoned them to their slaves for life and command the baby spirit to do evil to others.

Alot of chinese believe alot of stuffs, like, if you use horse tears or dog tears to put it into your eye, you will be able to see spirits and ghosts.

I know many friends who swear to me they have a third eye, and when I am around them, they always tell me, what they see around them. That spirits and ghost everywhere. These are Chinese friends. They are full grown adults who believe they have the sight and can fully describe to me the appearances and what the spirit wants.

My own cousin when he was young, always was supposingly able to see spirits too, as he always was talking to somebody but all the mom see is air. And when the mom ask him, who is he talking to, he can describe the person very detailedly and what they are conversing about.

His like 3. He went for psychiatric evaluation for hallucination but came out perfectly mentally healthy.

Alot of chinese people believe animals can see spirits too.

So an atheist like me. I find it odd why, even my own mom and friends swear by their experience, but I never saw or felt anything. In their case, they all really believe, because they believe they saw it with their own eyes. So I guess to them ghost and spirits are no longer intangible beings. Might be for these old tribal people too.

I like to believe, you create your own reality and then you will hallucinate whatever you want to see or feel.

But the hallucination level is not at the extreme end where you can't function in your life as a regular person, so mental illness department does not pick it up.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 5/23/2016 9:30:04 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/23/2016 9:31:16 PM

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My private thoughts? I am a pantheistic animist. To me the "divine" imbues all things and all things are the "divine". God is real, I am God, you are God, the trees are God, the earth is God the water is God,all is God and God is all.

P.S. That is one of my all-time favourite videos.

< Message edited by ThatDizzyChick -- 5/23/2016 9:34:09 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/23/2016 9:52:42 PM

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Are you asking what would an outside observer may think when witnessing the accomplishments and creations of human civilization?

I'm not sure there is an easy answer to that question. As you already said, there is a part of all of us that is subjective. All of us have different interests, and I don't think an outside observer could fairly judge our world without subjective opinion. What you may find beauty in, I may not. Which isn't to say I can't appreciate what you find beautiful, but who am I to judge something like the arts (music, literature, poetry, etc..) when I haven't devoted myself to that culture. It would be an injustice.

I think the one true, objective, answer to the question is that the human species purpose, like any animal, is to survive - at all costs. On a biological level, the fittest have adapted and survived for thousands of years. Along with the biological level, we've developed these spiritual and mental components that we may never fully understand. I think the human mind, body, and soul are extraordinarily beautiful. We're ever evolving and discovering new things about ourselves and the world around us. Where will we be in 100 years or 1000 years? Probably non-existent, but until such a time, I think everyone can appreciate the beauty of human civilization's desire to survive and prosper by building these great cities and penning sonnets and symphonies.

Edit: Or did I go off on a crazy tangent?

< Message edited by Blank101 -- 5/23/2016 9:58:37 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 1:20:23 AM

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How about this : the universe is one huge creature and we are cells of it.

You could call that god if you want.

T^T

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 10:13:02 AM

kdsub

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To me the universe comes down to one undeniable fact … at or in the beginning there was at least the potential of everything from nothing. We will never be able to explain this no matter how long our species survives. This fact means all theories are possible and there can be no verifiable wrong answer to your question no matter how outlandish.

I happen to believe that sentiency is not a natural or inevitable result in the evolution of inanimate materials. I think at the beginning sentiency was created at the same time inanimate materials and neither could exist without the other. For instance without a sentient presence to observe the universe who or what would know or quantify its existence?

I believe this sentience or source is what we call God. Where I believe my logical and my spiritual mind have trouble reconciling… is this source self aware? If it is then it could guide or command our actions and would mean that classical religion as we know it could be a reality. If it is not then it is no less powerful and necessary but other than our individual self awareness it has no moral or guiding purpose.

I find no contradiction in this theory with modern science.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/24/2016 11:10:07 AM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 4:05:04 PM

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I think the answer is the very unromantic one of evolution. Those assemblages of insentient materials have been added to or cast off from or modified based on what has worked vs. what hasn't worked. The more those materials are refined or made to work together and rely on one another, the more complex a machine those materials make up. Why would our own self awareness be any different? Are emotions learned responses? When we see an animal protecting their young, we attribute it to their animal instinct, but for us, there's emotion involved. I don't think there's a difference - I think it's all the same, and it's all just a matter of where we are on the evolutionary spectrum.

This, on a total side note, is why I still have trouble with the fact that I eat meat now. I really don't see any other sentient being as being all that different than I. I'm regularly accused of anthropomorphism, but I disagree. The bodies and minds of other animals may not have evolved to the extent that ours has, but at what point do we draw that line and say "Yes, now this is a being who has a sense of self?" How would we even know? And why do we think they don't just because it's not recognizable to us?

I'm halfway hesitating to post this because I really don't know what I'm talking about. But, fuck it. :)

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 4:23:10 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

So starting fresh, without rancor or Bible quotes, what conclusion might a reasonable person suspect upon witnessing these assemblages of insentient materials building great cities and penning sonnets and symphonies? What are your private thoughts?

Ode to Joy

K.

[/font]

That it is all mating rituals. Instinct is another description.

Ya know, I have not been convinced that buildings and art and such were not some sort of mating ritual that males entered into.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 4:49:17 PM

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quote:

I'm halfway hesitating to post this because I really don't know what I'm talking about.

That never stops the rest of us.

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 4:58:18 PM

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to add on a little to your op, I have a dictionary of comparative religion that has a little section on animism in it:

animism: theory about origin of religion advanced by sir e.b. tylor. according to tylor's 'minimum definition', religion is 'belief in spiritual beings.' he held that, from experience of sleep, dreams, ghosts and phenomenon of breathing, primitive man conceived of an anima, i.e. an immaterial animating principle that indwelt the body and left it at death. such an anima was attributed to all entities that moved and appeared to live: hence rivers, trees, sun, moon, etc. were thought to possess animae. since many such entities were immensely powerful and impressive, man began to worship them, the degree of his veneration corresponding to the measure of his fear, respect or need of them. animism became a popular designation for so-called 'primitive religion.'

(e.b. tylor's work referenced above is primitive culture, 1871.)

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 5:07:00 PM

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quote:

is this source self aware?

You are so it is, because you and it are one and the same.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 5:10:30 PM

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quote:

Ya know, I have not been convinced that buildings and art and such were not some sort of mating ritual that males entered into.

Orson Welles once said: "If there hadn't been women we'd still be squatting in a cave eating raw meat, because we made civilization in order to impress our girlfriends."

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 5:34:37 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

is this source self aware?

You are so it is, because you and it are one and the same.

Yes but only for a moment out of eternity... the big question...is this proposed source aware of me and do I become part of it when I die... getting hokey now I know. What a mystery... and how arrogant of us think we will ever know the true answer.

Myself i hope we never do...a life without mystery would be boring and depressing.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/24/2016 5:36:26 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 5:51:05 PM

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quote:

is this proposed source aware of me and do I become part of it when I die

Of course it is aware of you, you are aware of you and it is you and you are it. And no, you do not "become" part of it when you die, you are part of it now, you were part of it before you were born, and you will remain part of it when you die.

< Message edited by ThatDizzyChick -- 5/24/2016 5:53:44 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 5:55:09 PM

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All of existence is merely a passing manifestation of the desire of the divine to exist.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 6:24:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

So starting fresh, without rancor or Bible quotes, what conclusion might a reasonable person suspect upon witnessing these assemblages of insentient materials building great cities and penning sonnets and symphonies?

That would depend very much on the "reasonable person's" background experience and thought systems.

I'm not sure that anyone would necessarily assume that there would be a single answer for the variety and complexity of phenomena one would witness. But I suspect that, after some reflection our "reasonable person" would resort to some sort of self organising principle to explain things if a singular explanation was required.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/24/2016 6:26:22 PM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 7:17:46 PM

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FR

"[A]t the moment you are most in awe
of all there is about life that you don't understand,
you are closer to understanding it all
than at any other time."

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/24/2016 9:32:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Animism, which predates organized religion, is the belief that there is no separation between the physical and the spiritual, between matter and spirit. But it is important to realize that such a statement would be incomprehensible to an animist.

We are frequently told that man invented gods to explain the processes of nature. But consider, for example, that you have a dog you've named Buster. You will say things like, "Buster didn't like that," or "Buster is full of energy today." When you speak in this way, you aren't talking about the "god" of the dog. Buster is the dog. That's his name. Similarly, giving a name to the sky is not inventing a "god" of the sky. Animism is not a form of theism.

The arc of history has been one of increasing abstraction and with it a growing split between the physical and the spiritual, between matter and spirit, culminating in the present Monotheistic view that the world exists in relation to God purely as an object; separate, created, material. Beliefs may vary in the degree to which they postulate spirit's presence in and ability to act upon the material world, but the fundamental split between matter and spirit remains absolute and inviolate.

Critics of Monotheism commonly attack its spiritual claims, but nobody attacks its conjoined material claim, that matter is nothing but insentient "stuff." Yet the fact remains that Monotheism stands or falls on that claim too, and it seems just as much a long shot.

We cannot explain how or why an assemblage of insentient material could or would have any subjective internal experience at all, let alone a rich emotional life and a sense of self. The idea that consciousness is an emergent quality of sufficiently complex systems begs the question. We have no idea how insentient chemicals could possibly develop a conscious awareness of their existence in the first place.

So starting fresh, without rancor or Bible quotes, what conclusion might a reasonable person suspect upon witnessing these assemblages of insentient materials building great cities and penning sonnets and symphonies? What are your private thoughts?

Ode to Joy

K.

Hi K . . .

I have issues with some of your basic assumptions.

In Christian belief the spirit became incarnate in Jesus and the human corpus is inhabited by soul. Taking communion for some Christians is the act of swallowing the body, blood, and spirit of the Christ through transubstantiation. Body and spirit are one.

I don't know of anyone who claims that insentient chemicals developed a consciousness and awareness. Please elaborate that assumption so we have a clearer notion of what you mean, or at least be more specific.

The idea that consciousness is an emergent quality from assemblages of complex systems does not at all beg the question. It answers the question. If we remove the battery from an automobile it will fail to start no matter how many times you press the starter or turn the key. The potential energy emerges as kinetic energy through the processes of complex systems. If we remove the brain from a living dog there is no evidence that it will continue to have consciousness, unless of course you believe that the dog matter contains conscious spirit. That brings us back to a more contemporary and sophisticated form of animism.

Those are my thoughts. I believe your assumptions are flawed.

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/27/2016 11:27:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

In Christian belief the spirit became incarnate in Jesus and the human corpus is inhabited by soul... Body and spirit are one.

Christians do not believe that the body and the soul are one, only that they are joined for a time. In Christian belief, they are not the same essence. The body is made of earthly materials and returns to dust when no longer animated by the soul.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I don't know of anyone who claims that insentient chemicals developed a consciousness and awareness. Please elaborate that assumption so we have a clearer notion of what you mean, or at least be more specific.

All living things are comprised of insentient chemicals. Everyone whose philosophy limits reality to the physical world is constrained to believe that given the right conditions insentient matter can become conscious, because there is nothing else.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/28/2016 12:10:48 AM >

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RE: Let's try leaving religion out of it.... - 5/28/2016 7:49:18 AM

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Look, the reason to keep religion 'out of it' is because no debate is served and nothing is gained by...putting 'religion into it.'

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Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
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