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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 9/29/2016 8:34:04 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

That seems a bit weak to me. That's like saying that the overarching plot line of all Agatha Christie novels is that crimes are committed that get solved.



Not at all. That would only be the case if all crimes in Agatha Christie novel were somehow related, or were all pieces in a build up to one big crime.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

The kind of things you describe are not the kind of things that require people to read all the books, or they won't understand the main plot, or even to read them in order.



It's not an issue of understanding the main plot line, Norman does well enough of a job -sometimes excessively so- to fill the reader in on the backstory to make books comprehensible enough as stand alones. Instead it's an issue of not understanding the character's motivations.

Norman evolves all his reocurring characters throughout the series.
This counts for Tarl, Talena and Marlenus, but also for minor side character that only appear in a handful of books, like Boots Tarskbit, Samos, Zarendagar, etc.

The actions of character, and they things they learn about themselves, and how that changes them in one book relate directly to why they behave a certain way in another book.

I'm not at all opposed to people cherry picking certain volumes out of the series to read as stand alone works if they're not interested in reading the whole series. I've already given advice on which I'd recommend if somebody only wishes to read one and it's not Tarnsman. Likewise if somebody asks which to read if they only wish to read a few (lets call it 3 or less) I wouldn't recommend reading the first 3 in order.

Hell, my slave girl is currently under instruction to read a bit of the series every night before bed, and I'm not having her read them in order. Instead I've got her on a schedule to read certain of the 'slave girl' books first, in the order I prescribe, because I don't care about her getting maximum enjoyment out of the literary aspects of the series, nor do I care about her understanding Gorean philosophy, I care about her picking up certain cues on what kind of behavior I expect from slave girls, and how my husband and I view them.

But when we're talking about somebody intending/interested in reading the entire series -all 30+ books, which is a vast undertaking at the pace most people read- then it's simple ridiculous to do it in a 'cherry pick' a book here and there' fashion, considering that one book does lead to the next, and the details of previous actions that Norman will reference in later books, and the characters' motivations are crucial to understanding a whole bunch of dept and nuance that will be lost on you if you haven't read what previously happened, and seen the journey of self-discovery the characters are on through the course of the series.
I find it rather nonsensical to put in the time to read 30+ books but deny yourself some of the most beautiful and interesting aspects of the series by reading them in random order. Presumably somebody who's putting in that amount of time and effort is doing so because they actually -unlike you- enjoy reading Norman, in which case reading the series out of order has them seriously missing out on one of the best features of Norman's work.

As such, I wouldn't ever recommend anybody reading the entire series out of order. It's akin to doing something like studying European history our of order. It absolutely can be done, and in some cases is advisable, but somebody who does so will miss out on connections and insights that they would have gotten if they had 'experienced' why one thing lead to another. Does that mean that one cannot study WWII without examining WWI? Nope. But studying WWI first, and then the transitional period leading up to WWII will make the German motivations to accept Hitler starting WWII make a whole lot more sense.

Same with the Gor series. Can it be read in its entirety out of order? Yep, absolutely. Will somebody doing so get as much out of the series as they would have reading it in order? Absolutely not... which at that point I consider rather foolish seeing that they just put in the time to read 30+ books, which is why you'll never see me recommend somebody "Yeah you can read the entire thing in any order you want".
I also wouldn't recommend just randomly picking a couple to read, considering that some of them do very much need to be read in the context of other preceding books and would just not make sense at all out of context. A cherry-picker reading one of those books first will likely be frustrated with the series because the book just won't make sense without the proper context.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 9/29/2016 8:36:33 AM >


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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 9/29/2016 10:14:36 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

That seems a bit weak to me. That's like saying that the overarching plot line of all Agatha Christie novels is that crimes are committed that get solved.



BTW, a much more apt comparison would be to read the Harry Potter series, or The Clan of the Cave Bear series out of order.

Both of those have each work being able to be read as a stand alone piece, with the story of every given particular book being enough self-contained, and enough backstory given in the beginning of each book for a reader to be able to follow, and enjoy the story by itself.
But in both of those series, as well as the Gor series, enough of the story is contingent on previous occurrences, as well as the characters drastically developing and maturing over the course of the series, that no serious fan of any of those series would recommend reading them out of order.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 9/29/2016 10:15:55 AM >


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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 9/29/2016 2:23:50 PM   
eliseobeys


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I personally started with Kajira of Gor. But afterwards I went through the series in order as I would with any book series I got interested in. At first I was a bit miffed that the main character wasnt the same, but then after getting into the Tarl character I got miffed when Norman changed to Jason for a while.

I can see why one may not care or wish for their submissive to become "Gorean" lol I have been told it can be rather challenging to say the least when it comes to dealing with we who serve with the spirit of the she-sleen.

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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 9/29/2016 2:39:58 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eliseobeys

I can see why one may not care or wish for their submissive to become "Gorean" lol I have been told it can be rather challenging to say the least when it comes to dealing with we who serve with the spirit of the she-sleen.



It's not a matter of not wishing her to become Gorean. It's a matter of her having a limited amount of time to read (about 30 minutes a day) and that I'd rather have her focus on the areas that will actually be of use to her.

Most of the other books focus more heavily on Gorean philosophy from a point of view of the Free. What kajiae morality is covered is largely a rehashing of the stuff covered in the slave girl books. It's not necessary for her to cover those books to get what I want her to get out of the series.

As far as her 'becoming' Gorean making her harder to handle... only somebody who has no concept of what it means to be a slave would make such a preposterous claim. She's a slave. How she handles depends on how my husband and I train her to handle, not on any silly little ideas she might get into her head about 'spirit of she-sleen- from reading whichever book I please her to read.

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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 9/29/2016 3:03:08 PM   
WickedsDesire


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From a plot stand point x 12 years I am real and not one taker – whom amongst you will behold, ravish or befriend me
Anyone?

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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 9/29/2016 3:11:03 PM   
AtUrCervix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Diphon

From a plot standpoint? I just finished Magicians and I'm about 8 chapters into Witness. So far I'm bored to tears and the writing style seems a bit rougher than the first 25 books. Is it a standalone? Or does it tie-in, in some important way to the main story line?

I guess I have the same question for Prize, since the "girl books" don't really do much for me in general. Should I stick it out through 26 and 27 or just skip straight to Kur?


I was just at my Dentist the other day and I didn't recognize ONE single person in the ENTIRE magazine (except Pamela of course....she's my girl).

(This reminds me of that).

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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 9/29/2016 3:47:13 PM   
WickedsDesire


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99.9% fakes i bleive

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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 9/30/2016 7:56:50 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

That seems a bit weak to me. That's like saying that the overarching plot line of all Agatha Christie novels is that crimes are committed that get solved.



BTW, a much more apt comparison would be to read the Harry Potter series, or The Clan of the Cave Bear series out of order.



Perhaps... but that is because there is very specific character evolution from book to book. You could read them out of order and it would not make much difference to your understanding of the story... only to your understanding of the characters and the references to the past that they make.

All I am saying is this... In LotR the overarching plot line is to destroy the ring. In Game of Thrones, the overarching plot line is that winter is coming, and the white walkers with it.

I don't detect an overarching plot line in Gor that could be described in a single sentence. Perhaps I am wrong, but no one has expressed it, that I have seen.

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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 9/30/2016 11:11:38 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

I don't detect an overarching plot line in Gor that could be described in a single sentence. Perhaps I am wrong, but no one has expressed it, that I have seen.


The struggle for power in Ar, and the struggle for power between the Priest-Kings and the Kurri.

EVER singly book, except for book 2, ties directly into one, or both, of those major plot lines.
Some books do so less, and are more suitable to read as a standalone (Captive being a good example of that), other books tie in so heavily that the entire book wouldn't do well as a standalone at all (Vagabonds being a good example of that).


_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 2/3/2017 6:13:01 AM   
muktada


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I thought there were two *real* stories that cross most of the books, with a few being "books in the same universe, parallel stories" that don't contribute a lot to the main storyline.

1) Tarl's growth as a Gorean and a person. This starts with him being a human trying to adapt Gor to his image of what things should be (the first few books). From there, he has resignation - where he keeps having his "Terran humanity" creep back in, but is really depressed that his world view is so wrong on Gor (and may be wrong for humans everywhere). After that, he's closer to a "true Gorean", though he's still a bit apart from other Goreans. As much as he keeps finding a new homestone, I'm not really sure I'd say he truly has a "home" on Gor - his home really stays as that place where he hangs his hat. In this way, he is not completely Gorean. I'm unsure where his story is going at this point. Tarl is such a broody, whiny bitch sometimes that I just want to smack him upside the head. This should not be his defining character trait and I wish he'd move on from it.

2) The exploration of human nature. Much like Starship Troopers (book, not movie) was a political statement, I think that Gor is Norman's version, but more about the nature of men and women and how they are truly different. I'm not going to say that he has it 100% right, but there is a lot about the books that rings true. I think he oversimplifies most of the time, though he occasionally does show that there is variation in women. It's more of a "1 in a million exception" situation that isn't reflective of our experience here. That might be because human women are chosen on Gor for their traits that would make them fit the narrative on Gor and those that would not, are not chosen.

3) Kur vs. Priest-Kings. This story comes up regularly and I wish he'd do more with it, as it's a story that has wider potential. I can do without the forty-seventh chapter long diatribe on the nature of woman as a slave to her man/master. At this point, he could probably copy and paste from the earlier books and I wouldn't notice, because I basically go into "speed-skimming" mode when I see that pop up. I got that message a long time ago - please move on and give me more Priest-Kings vs. Kur... or he can find someone who can co-write with him to build that story before he dies. He's not 19 years old...

These might not qualify as overarching stories to some, but I think they're nitpicking simply to be contrary. Needing every book to contribute to the storyline is again, nitpicking. There are other writers who write multiple stories in the same universe, but not with the same characters or even the same storyline. The only difference is that Norman puts them all in a "series" and they don't. He also started this series long before that style of writing existed, so I'm willing to say "These are Tarl books, these are Kur/Priest-King books, these are universe books..." and do that separation that is done by writers that started their series 30+ years after Norman started his.

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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 2/3/2017 12:53:03 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: muktada
Kur vs. Priest-Kings. This story comes up regularly and I wish he'd do more with it, as it's a story that has wider potential. I can do without the forty-seventh chapter long diatribe on the nature of woman as a slave to her man/master. At this point, he could probably copy and paste from the earlier books and I wouldn't notice, because I basically go into "speed-skimming" mode when I see that pop up. I got that message a long time ago - please move on and give me more Priest-Kings vs. Kur... or he can find someone who can co-write with him to build that story before he dies. He's not 19 years old...

He can't resolve that one, can he? As soon as that's tidied up, he has nothing left to provide some meat lurking underneath his plotting.

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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 2/3/2017 9:08:26 PM   
Malkinius


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I used to think that a major part of the story arc was the Priest Kings grooming Tarl to be their human commander in a war against the Kur. He went so many places and met so many people who will come to fight if he calls that he could raise a huge army out of the various groups on Gor. Or, the title of that book would be, "Warlord of Gor".

Due to the changes in the Nest and a new Mother for the Priest Kings, that may no longer be the case. Or maybe it still is and they are pushing him where they want him now by trying to kill him rather than by just telling him were to go. That may or may not have included his traveling to the Steel Worlds and what happened there. There is still debate on that point and only some later book will resolve that question. The Kur based story arc is still not over or maybe it is with "Plunder of Gor" but I would not guarantee that. There are some loose ends to tie up among the Kur and some of the characters in "Plunder". I don't want to give too much away about that book for those who have not yet read it.

Malkinius of Chicago

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RE: Can I skip Witness? - 2/5/2017 6:46:10 AM   
WhoreMods


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No argument, but that wasn't really what I was getting at. As soon as the rivalry between the Priest Kings and their opponents is resolved, that's probably going to lead to quite comprehensive changes in the setting, and at the very least remove one of the main sources of conflict. In a long running series, and unresolved problem is a lot more useful to the writer, after all.

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