RE: WTF happened in Normandy

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freedomdwarf1 -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 12:18:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 On the plus side, the posters on this thread have lived among muslims and know everything about them. In fact, how they've lived to tell the tale is a freak of nature, considering the muslim propensity to kill anything that moves. I have been called an Islamaphobe and a bigot. I have some very good islamic friends around me and I learn a lot from them. My kids went to school with their kids. But that doesn't mean I agree with their ideology. By pointing out the distinct and conflicting parts of their way of life that I consider to be incomprehensible with the west has gotten me the Islamaphobe label. I make no bones about the fact that I don't believe in multiculturism when said cultures won't integrate. That gets me the bigot label too.

MariaB -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 12:30:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Thus is war But the war in Syria is a civil war and not a war against the West. The West took opposing sides and made one the enemy and the other an ally. We are intervening in an in-house quarrel and have taken the side of the best investors. Why should we get to say who the enemy is? The French resistance did some pretty barbaric things to Nazi and Mussolini soldiers. We hailed them heroes, The Germans called them evil barbarians. Who was right?

NorthernGent1 -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 12:34:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 On the plus side, the posters on this thread have lived among muslims and know everything about them. In fact, how they've lived to tell the tale is a freak of nature, considering the muslim propensity to kill anything that moves. I have been called an Islamaphobe and a bigot. I have some very good islamic friends around me and I learn a lot from them. My kids went to school with their kids. But that doesn't mean I agree with their ideology. By pointing out the distinct and conflicting parts of their way of life that I consider to be incomprehensible with the west has gotten me the Islamaphobe label. I make no bones about the fact that I don't believe in multiculturism when said cultures won't integrate. That gets me the bigot label too. What exactly is 'their ideology' because going off the muslim people I've worked with and lived among they're not doing much different to us: they're working, eating, sleeping, raising a family, that sort of thing. Not once have I ever had any problem with any muslim.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 12:36:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Thus is war But the war in Syria is a civil war and not a war against the West. The West took opposing sides and made one the enemy and the other an ally. We are intervening in an in-house quarrel and have taken the side of the best investors. Why should we get to say who the enemy is? The French resistance did some pretty barbaric things to Nazi and Mussolini soldiers. We hailed them heroes, The Germans called them evil barbarians. Who was right? We made it a war against the west by interfering. Some of the people decided they didn't like the totalitarian regime of Assad Asswipe. Assad decided to use chemical warfare and banned barrel bombs on his own people. The US and the west decided this was unacceptable and stepped in to back the rebels. The rest is a mess. The jihadist extremists saw the opportunity and moved into the vacuum that it created. The rest, as they say, is now history.

vincentML -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 1:17:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB The latest news about Adel Kermiche says he was born in France to Algerian parents. He had suffered from mental illness from the age of 6 and regularly hospitalized. Locals say, Kermiche was not very bright and very gullible. He would often be seen with visible signs of a mental disorder. His parents are none practicing Muslims. He never managed to get into Syria and he could not be banned/deported from France because he is French. Isn't it simply mind boggling, Maria, that after you reveal the truth about this dim-witted, mentally ill "jihadist" the posters here continue as if nothing really matters? All Muslims are our enemies. Don't bother us with the truth. Off with the bastard's head!

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 1:34:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 What exactly is 'their ideology' because going off the muslim people I've worked with and lived among they're not doing much different to us: they're working, eating, sleeping, raising a family, that sort of thing. Not once have I ever had any problem with any muslim. We have here. But on the whole, they are no different to us - on the surface. They like the benefits we have here; the free healthcare, free schooling, half-decent housing (compared to where they've come from), job and work opportunities, less religious wars (sunni vs shia etc), better standard of living (food availability, roads, cars, trains, busses, flushing toilets, running H&C water, lack of guns etc), other infrastructure benefits. If you get to know quite a few of them personally, many are quietly very disgruntled that we don't allow the things they want in an Islamic world and are puzzled that we frown upon some of their 'natural' behaviour. Example: When the wife was walking back from her daughter's flat last week, she got verbally reprimanded by a young Muslim male for daring to smoke, in public, and for not covering her face; because it's not allowed in their ideology. So despite what the moderates say to the media, the underlying thinking is very different; they say what they need to say in order to stay where they are and not get deported or imprisoned or otherwise discriminated against. Most of my Islamic friends have said that they very firmly believe in sharia law; a very male dominated way of life where women are treated with less respect and consideration than animals. Some have said that they take exception to having to send their daughters to school by law. Many have said that they firmly believe in honour killings and say it should be allowed in our laws - for the sake of family honour. They almost all believed in the right of the husband to beat the wife if she displeased them in some way. Many have expressed a view that we should abolish and ban all pork products because they believe a pig is a dirty animal. If you dare mention things like equality for gay/lesbian/LGBT people, you get a look of horror and daggers; they firmly believe they should be killed on sight without a thought. They also believe that arranged marriages to girls as young as 8 should be legal. And overwhelmingly, they all felt that religion and religious doctrine trumps the laws of the land. We have also seen first-hand how the men treat their women. Even those that look as if they have fully embraced western ways; but you notice subtle differences if you look. At the wholesalers that we go to:- The women push the barrow/trolley no matter how heavy or laden it is; The women load and unload the van with whatever they buy for their shop; The women fill the shelves and tend to customers for most purchases; When it comes to using the terminals for top-ups, utility keys etc, they are shoved aside because "they aren't intelligent enough" to operate the machinery; Young males boss their mother and other females around - it is expected of them; Most females don't get to choose what to buy - they are told by the males; Most females aren't allowed to engage in idle chat with customers. And there's plenty more examples like that. On the other hand, the males hold the money and pay the bills at the checkout. They engage in customer chit-chat and operate the terminals. They dictate what is bought and when. The males really do totally dominate their society and they teach male offspring the same behaviour. So on the outside, they look as if they are living the same lives that we do. But look under the surface and you'll notice something quite different. Apart from the odd asshat redneck, I don't generally see that lifestyle and behaviour/attitude from people born and bred in the west that aren't Islamic.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 1:37:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 The males really do totally dominate their society and they teach male offspring the same behaviour. Apart from the odd asshat redneck, I don't generally see that lifestyle and behaviour/attitude from people born and bred in the west that aren't Islamic. This might not be the most appropriate website to advance that argument. And, it's not my experience with muslims, anyway. Found them no different to us, except we bomb their countries and think it's a good idea - probably the only significant difference I noticed.

vincentML -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 1:46:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I can easily see the difference between a man running women and children down in the streets and accidental innocent deaths in a drone attack or in a war returning hostile fire. Individuals may perform atrocities but one ideology calls for them and the other mandates avoidance of them... which do you think is which? Butch Jesus, Butch, how can you ignore the history of American military saturation bombing and fire bombing of cities: Hamburg, Dresden, Berlin, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Hanoi, Belgrade, Bagdad, shock and awe and fuck the civilians. The U.S. firebombed Tokyo on the night of March 9–10, 1945, and killed more than 100,000 people in the deadliest conventional bombing in history, known to the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) as Operation Meetinghouse.[30] In a few hours, 100,000 people who were in Tokyo including civilians died either by the bombing or the conflagration that followed the bombing by 325 U.S. B-29's night attacks. The fleet included 279 bombers. The bombing was meant to burn wooden buildings and indeed the bombing caused fire that created a 50 m/s wind that is comparable to tornadoes. A total of 381,300 bombs amounting to 1783 tons, were used in the bombing. After the successful Operation Meetinghouse raid, the USAAF then went on to attack other Japanese cities with incendiary and high-explosives bombs in effort to pulverize the enemy's war industry and shatter the enemy's civilian morale to contribute to the war effort. From March to August 1945, the U.S. firebombing of 66 other Japanese cities had killed 350,000 civilians. In addition, the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed 120,000 non-combatants, most of them civilians, and combatants.[31]

kdsub -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 1:53:18 PM)
Vince you need to read all my posts in this thread and you will see where I answered your question. Butch

PeonForHer -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 2:13:26 PM)
quote: Isn't it simply mind boggling, Maria, that after you reveal the truth about this dim-witted, mentally ill "jihadist" the posters here continue as if nothing really matters? What keeps getting me is the 'religious determinism' of that view. You look in the Koran, you have all you need to know of what will determine a muslim's thoughts and actions. I mean, OK, to say Marx is deeply unfashionable is an understatement but, hell, those basic, material conditions surely have to count for somethiing? Is it really so implausible that a Muslim whose roots are in even (or maybe especially) the most crazy, bloodythirsty mainly-Islamic country on the planet, might turn up in, say, Britain or the USA and think, 'Hey, I can make a living here, I can be comfortable; people don't kill each other much, my children will be safe from bombs, from psychopathic nutcases; I can sleep at night without fear' etc, etc, etc , so long as I accept batch of liberal-democratic principles'? Reading so many people on the 'character of the Muslim', it's as though not even the most basic level of Maslow's hierarchy of values is relevant. Having enough to eat; physical safety; stability ... such things are nothing to muslims. The Koran - or rather the fanatical, evil, murderous bits of it - they're supposedly everything, to all muslims, though the majority of them may pretend otherwise. To me, that's mind-bogglingly senseless. It's devoid of the most simple and uncontroversial things that economics, or politics, or sociology, or psychology, have taught us. (Or should have taught us.)

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 3:04:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer ...To me, that's mind-bogglingly senseless. It's devoid of the most simple and uncontroversial things that economics, or politics, or sociology, or psychology, have taught us. (Or should have taught us.) You are missing the main label when it comes to most Muslims, whether moderate or extremist. The Qur'an is drummed into them from birth. They have to learn it, from cover to cover, by heart, at a very young age. They are taught that it is the one and only true way to live life. Islam is the be-all and end-all of everything - regardless of where they are. It's a "one twu wayism" in the extreme. We in the west are taught along very different lines. None of us, even in the most extreme of religious doctrinations, are subject to the level that Muslims are put to. What you call "...mind-bogglingly senseless" is proof that you have no understanding of where they are coming from. You are trying very hard to justify Islamic behaviour in western terms and philosophies; square peg in round hole. Most of us are taught to respect the law and other people/property. We are inherently taught and constantly reminded all our lives that law comes first, religion (whatever you follow) comes second and that religion sits within the framework of the law of the land (generally). Islamic indoctrination is the complete reverse of our culture and teachings. As I posted earlier: overwhelmingly, they all felt that religion and religious doctrine trumps the laws of the land, or should do. Those of us that have seen or heard it first hand and have some inclination of their true culture, are slammed as Islamaphobes when we point it out. You and many others are seeing through polarising western eyes and applying western standards to them and formulating your arguments based on that premise. They are very different; chalk and cheese, oil and water etc. There is a big difference between rubbing shoulders with them in the course of whatever you do, and quite another when you really get to know them from the inside. The last few sentences of your first paragraph belies the general thought process of many Muslims. Yes, many work hard and are good entrepraneurs; I can't fault them for that. They put up a good facade for the media and other westerners to see. And generally, they are good people and not disruptive. But beyond that, many clammer for an Islamic way of life, not a western based one.

BamaD -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 3:30:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub If that were the case but it is not... there is no doubt that innocents are killed... but indiscriminately is the key word that does not apply to our armed forces but certainly does to ISIS for instance. Butch Both sides are fighting an enemy. The fact that our armed forces CHOOSE to bomb where civilians are, is willful indiscrimination. It most certainly does apply to our forces. So if ISIS puts their forces in the midst of civilians and we bomb the forces knowing that some civilians will die, that is indiscriminate killing of innocents? That is no different from attacking places where there are nothing but civilians as ISIS does?

BamaD -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 3:32:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub If that were the case but it is not... there is no doubt that innocents are killed... but indiscriminately is the key word that does not apply to our armed forces but certainly does to ISIS for instance. Butch This is the thing: we think it is acceptable to bomb someone's country, knowing full well that means leaving children without Mothers and rendering a lot of people homeless, and we justify that because: "they're idiots". Now, you tell me who are the outright idiots? I don't recall them bombing us. Propaganda and good PR spin. It's the age-old "we are good and they are bad" philosophy. The difference is, we started it and complain that they retaliate. You remind me of the guy who said that if we didn't watch it the Arabs were going to strike back.

BamaD -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 3:36:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 On the plus side, the posters on this thread have lived among muslims and know everything about them. In fact, how they've lived to tell the tale is a freak of nature, considering the muslim propensity to kill anything that moves. I have been called an Islamaphobe and a bigot. I have some very good islamic friends around me and I learn a lot from them. My kids went to school with their kids. But that doesn't mean I agree with their ideology. By pointing out the distinct and conflicting parts of their way of life that I consider to be incomprehensible with the west has gotten me the Islamaphobe label. I make no bones about the fact that I don't believe in multiculturism when said cultures won't integrate. That gets me the bigot label too. Multiculturism and not integrating into the society are mutually exclusive.

PeonForHer -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 3:50:18 PM)
quote: The Qur'an is drummed into them from birth. That doesn't fit the profile, FD. It kind of threw me to read, once, that the rucksack belonging to a British muslim who'd turned up in Syria to join Isis had contained a little book about 'Islam for Beginners'. These are basically deranged lads who are of Muslim stock, but know bugger all about it. They're not devout Muslims. They're just kids who've gone crazy, found themselves some first-grade-Islam ... and then gone the whole-hog-crazy. I honestly think you and I, and possibly most people writing about Islam and the Koran, here, on CS, know more about Islam than they do, or did. The main factor at work here is about kids who want to be heroes, basically. That's my feeling. Young men who want to be 'Something'.

kdsub -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 3:56:56 PM)
ISIS is not just a civil war... their goals are not just Syria and Iraq. Butch

Politesub53 -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 4:15:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Do you remember how those of us that thought we should be more selective with who we allowed to emigrate to the US were called racist? Will I think the wisdom of that way of thinking is hitting home hard in the UE. I do understand the suffering of the innocent but if there is a price to pay it should not be us paying it. I have never been for turning people away but I do believe that rather then open borders there should be humane refugee camps where people can be returned to their homes when hostilities end. Refugee camps do not have to be hell holes... If they are properly supported and policed by the world body they can serve their purpose humanely. Butch Did they stop calling us racist, I missed that. You wont find me refraining from calling you racist any time soon. As for Butch`s post, he cant even get his facts right, this guy grew up in Franceand wasnt a recent migrant. His parents are both professors who had reportedly taken him to the police at some point after he became radicalised. The police said there was nothing they could do, as he hadnt broken the law.

kdsub -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 4:47:01 PM)
quote: I make no bones about the fact that I don't believe in multiculturism when said cultures won't integrate. That gets me the bigot label too. Here is something we can agree on. Butch

BamaD -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 5:17:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I can easily see the difference between a man running women and children down in the streets and accidental innocent deaths in a drone attack or in a war returning hostile fire. Individuals may perform atrocities but one ideology calls for them and the other mandates avoidance of them... which do you think is which? Butch Jesus, Butch, how can you ignore the history of American military saturation bombing and fire bombing of cities: Hamburg, Dresden, Berlin, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Hanoi, Belgrade, Bagdad, shock and awe and fuck the civilians. The U.S. firebombed Tokyo on the night of March 9–10, 1945, and killed more than 100,000 people in the deadliest conventional bombing in history, known to the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) as Operation Meetinghouse.[30] In a few hours, 100,000 people who were in Tokyo including civilians died either by the bombing or the conflagration that followed the bombing by 325 U.S. B-29's night attacks. The fleet included 279 bombers. The bombing was meant to burn wooden buildings and indeed the bombing caused fire that created a 50 m/s wind that is comparable to tornadoes. A total of 381,300 bombs amounting to 1783 tons, were used in the bombing. After the successful Operation Meetinghouse raid, the USAAF then went on to attack other Japanese cities with incendiary and high-explosives bombs in effort to pulverize the enemy's war industry and shatter the enemy's civilian morale to contribute to the war effort. From March to August 1945, the U.S. firebombing of 66 other Japanese cities had killed 350,000 civilians. In addition, the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed 120,000 non-combatants, most of them civilians, and combatants.[31] Tokyo was not the most deadly conventional boming raid in history, it was the most deadly bombing raid in history. The TOTAL from the two nukes was 20,000 mor than from the one attack on Tokyo. The casualties in Hiroshima would have been higher except that when we tolf them we were going to use a new devistating weapon on one of a list of 20 cities the Japanese pulled most of their troops out of those cities, they didn't do anything about the cities. Of course if the had puled the civilians out too the casualties would have been much lower.

kdsub -> RE: WTF happened in Normandy (7/27/2016 5:56:48 PM)
I defend my statement differently Bama... Vince did not read where I said... in this conflict...But I have no problem defending our actions in WWII. It must be remembered we and our allies were attacked and defending ourselves. The Axis powers attacked and pursued the aggression. Not one Axis civilian or soldier needed to be killed by our hands if the Axis powers had ceased aggression. At any time they could have surrendered and the killing would have immediately stopped. Every death was by their hand not ours. Butch

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