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Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/3/2016 8:06:49 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Or what will happen when you can go to the local power plant and order 10 tons of pure gold.

We know that stars burn hydrogen in a fusion reaction that creates helium.

When the hydrogen is used up, it then burns helium and gets hotter.

Eventually, the fusion reaction starts making heavier elements, and if the star is big enough, when it starts producing Iron, the star is going to go super nova, if it is small, like ours, it will end up as a dead brown dwarf.

Okay, so, hypothetically speaking, Dr. John Smartass perfects the fusion reactor next year. It is safe, since if the containment field collaspes, the reaction stops and there is no big bad KABOOM.

Now, the public starts screaming for cheap electricity to power their play stations, x boxes, laptops, and rechargers for the batteries for all the adult toys presently on the market, so the governments help pay for building these power plants.

Now, Dr. Smartass has been kind enough to point out to the suppliers of hydrocarbon based fuels that fusion reactors not only make electricity, but the resulting fusion reactions can build elements like gold out of the fuel you have to put in it.

Exxon, BP and every oil company then jumps on the fusion band wagon so they can make money from something that would otherwise put them out of business.

Now, suddenly turning lead to gold is possible, so Exxon (or which ever) starts flooding the gold market with mass produced gold.

The result, well the greedy bastards makes a shit ton of hard cash real fast, but the gold market eventually crashes. Suddenly gold and every other precious metal is basically worthless.

While no country is on the gold standard any longer, they still maintain gold reserves for emergencies.

Now, all the gold in every reserve is worthless, so, what do you base the value of anything on?

In the original star trek, worth was based on social value, what you contributed was what you were worth, thus earning 'credits' while the Ferengi based their economy on Gold pressed latinum (whatever latinum was) that was the rarest thing in the galaxy and could not be made in a fusion reactor.

So in that scenario, we have a society that is based on people working not for wealth but for personal achievement.

I do believe that is pure socialism, but I may be wrong.

Now, to the other extreme is the dystopian society where the haves versus the have nots. There is an abundance of power and stuff, but the people in power benefit while the common joe is fucked by the system.

Now the benefits of fusion power are easy to see, we have a power source that could easily propel a vessel to the nearest star. Okay its gonna take 10 years, but you have the energy to get the thing up to a significant percentage of the speed of light.

Well, we know that there is nothing around the nearest star, so we gonna have to go further to find a planet we can possibly live on.

Okay, we have gone from a 10 year flight to a 200 year flight.

This means a generation or sleeper ship.

Now, we have the basics of what could happen, would probably happen, so, what are your thoughts on the future?

Now, consider the following:

Fusion is the first step to using zero point or dark energy as power, with a number of steps in between.

Fusion will not provide the power needed to pull off a warp drive.

Other than spinning a section of a ship for simulated gravity, we have no idea if artificial gravity is even possible, and current physics say maybe with a heavy leaning toward hell no.

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/4/2016 4:38:52 AM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		The left leaning bias is one of the things I've always really liked about Star Trek. It's one of the very few SF sagas in any medium that doesn't take it for granted that a post scarcity society will automatically revert to feudalistic imperialism.

I think it'd have to be a generation ship, as there's no more evidence at this point that that a sleeper ship could be keep the colonists on ice for a couple of centuries than there is for artificial gravity. (There's quite a bit of SF where gravity manipulation is the excuse for warp drives, iirc: I think Poul Anderson is fond of that one, and I know that Iain Banks mentions it in passing in one of his space operas.)

Gold doesn't have a market value defined solely by scarcity: it's an element that has practical uses, particularly in electronics and, to a lesser degree, in surgery. If it loses its inherent value, it would be worth manufacturing for dentistry alone, never mind connections in circuit boards. And it definitely would be manufactured for that, even if people stopped wearing it as jewelry.

As for a fusion powered generation ship, I think you'd want to have some sort of back up power system on there as well, as one plant running everything on a voyage that'll take at least two hundred years (it needs to slow down at the far end, and I doubt it'll be able to do that if it accelerates to a speed where the Lorenz equations come into play en route), as if something goes kablooey while it's in transit, that's a lot of dead people.

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/4/2016 5:48:14 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

Now, all the gold in every reserve is worthless, so, what do you base the value of anything on?

The same thing it is based on now; the overall strength and health of a nation's economy.
quote:

I do believe that is pure socialism, but I may be wrong.

You are wrong.

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/4/2016 8:26:23 AM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Now, all the gold in every reserve is worthless, so, what do you base the value of anything on?

The same thing it is based on now; the overall strength and health of a nation's economy.
quote:

I do believe that is pure socialism, but I may be wrong.

You are wrong.



As to the first, your partially right, the present world monitary system is only partially based on the over all value of the countries economy, however, it is still based on that countries ability to pay debts in gold, which still has a universal monetary value.

Okay, if I am wrong what social system is it?

If not socialism, then what? If personal wealth is not the measure of one's worth, but by their ability to contribute or amount they contribute to a society, what do you call it?

WhoreMods
As for fusion power on a generational colony ship, there is no possibility of an explosion.

As for a lot of dead people if it fails, well if the ship runs into a large celestial body, you have the same problem.

A theoretical physicist pointed out that to make a force field strong enough to protect a ship from large objects would generate so much heat that it would roast the occupants.

And the ship would have to have the habitat section spinning, which creates its own problems. It is one thing when you have a spinning habitat on a stationary object, but it creates problems on a moving vessel.

Now, there are theoretical elements that might be dense enough to create a gravity field, but you could not bring that ship anywhere near a planetary body.

The other option is to have the ship accelerate and decelerate at 1G, so halfway through the trip, the floor becomes the ceiling and well, that would create some confusion.

Finally, a generation ship would have to be a complete self sustaining ecosystem. To make it work, you would need something along the size of Babylon 5, say 5 miles long, massing out at 2.5 million tons.

Now, the people that came up with that for the series tried to get as close to possible as they could. They estimated for a non moving structure it would need the equivalent of the power output that would keep the LA metroarea supplied with electricity, and that is a lot of energy.

Now you want to move 2.5 million tons accelerating it at 1G? It takes one Newton of force to accelerate one kilo one meter per second per second.

So you need 2267961850 newtons of force to accelerate that 2.5 million tons one meter per second per second....

now multiply that by 9.80.

That is roughly the power output of the entire US for one day, and you need that ever second, plus the power to keep the basic systems functioning.

What people do not realize is that even in the absence of gravity, you still have to over come inertia, dont take near as much, but it is still a problem.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/4/2016 8:36:56 AM   
mnottertail


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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/4/2016 8:45:57 AM   
WhoreMods


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Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Now, all the gold in every reserve is worthless, so, what do you base the value of anything on?

The same thing it is based on now; the overall strength and health of a nation's economy.
quote:

I do believe that is pure socialism, but I may be wrong.

You are wrong.



As to the first, your partially right, the present world monitary system is only partially based on the over all value of the countries economy, however, it is still based on that countries ability to pay debts in gold, which still has a universal monetary value.

Okay, if I am wrong what social system is it?

If not socialism, then what? If personal wealth is not the measure of one's worth, but by their ability to contribute or amount they contribute to a society, what do you call it?

WhoreMods
As for fusion power on a generational colony ship, there is no possibility of an explosion.

As for a lot of dead people if it fails, well if the ship runs into a large celestial body, you have the same problem.

A theoretical physicist pointed out that to make a force field strong enough to protect a ship from large objects would generate so much heat that it would roast the occupants.

And the ship would have to have the habitat section spinning, which creates its own problems. It is one thing when you have a spinning habitat on a stationary object, but it creates problems on a moving vessel.

Now, there are theoretical elements that might be dense enough to create a gravity field, but you could not bring that ship anywhere near a planetary body.

The other option is to have the ship accelerate and decelerate at 1G, so halfway through the trip, the floor becomes the ceiling and well, that would create some confusion.

Finally, a generation ship would have to be a complete self sustaining ecosystem. To make it work, you would need something along the size of Babylon 5, say 5 miles long, massing out at 2.5 million tons.

Now, the people that came up with that for the series tried to get as close to possible as they could. They estimated for a non moving structure it would need the equivalent of the power output that would keep the LA metroarea supplied with electricity, and that is a lot of energy.

Now you want to move 2.5 million tons accelerating it at 1G? It takes one Newton of force to accelerate one kilo one meter per second per second.

So you need 2267961850 newtons of force to accelerate that 2.5 million tons one meter per second per second....

now multiply that by 9.80.

That is roughly the power output of the entire US for one day, and you need that ever second, plus the power to keep the basic systems functioning.

What people do not realize is that even in the absence of gravity, you still have to over come inertia, dont take near as much, but it is still a problem.

Oh, I follow all of that, and no question that you'd need a closed ecosystem that won't run down en route for a generation ship. I was thinking more of the fact that the ecosystem will require artificial light to stop the plantlife everything else depends on dying off in interstellar space, and once the power goes, so does that. It'll need heating as well, which the ecosystem can't do itself.
So, if nothing else can handle the power payload, it'll have to have a second fusion generator as a backup.

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/4/2016 9:31:52 AM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Oh, I follow all of that, and no question that you'd need a closed ecosystem that won't run down en route for a generation ship. I was thinking more of the fact that the ecosystem will require artificial light to stop the plantlife everything else depends on dying off in interstellar space, and once the power goes, so does that. It'll need heating as well, which the ecosystem can't do itself.
So, if nothing else can handle the power payload, it'll have to have a second fusion generator as a backup.



I got what you were saying, I was merely pointing out the issues involved.

Now, fusion power plants do need fuel, but there is a solution, sort of.

Space is not a perfect vacuum, there are clouds of hydrogen floating out there, so the ship could suck up hydrogen as it moves through space.

But, you would need a scope a few hundred kilometers across, plus as the ship's velocity increases, all that gathering of hydrogen will result in a lot of xrays being generated, and they would in turn, unfortunately, fry the pour passengers.


Of course, there is the idea that you could use a comet for fuel, basically run a ship out to the ort cloud, catch a comet and burn off the hydrogen on the comet.

Comet acts like a fuel tank and radiation shield, but then you have just added more mass to what you have to move.

Of course, then you have the fact the comet is now in front of the ship and you have no idea what the hell you might run into.



_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/4/2016 10:22:36 AM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		Bussard ramjets! Man, there's an idea you used to see in pop science, futurology and science fiction (isn't that how the ship in Tau Zero works?) all the time, but seems to have been utterly forgotten now. You reckon it was because of the x ray issue that one stopped being touted as a possibility?

A comet sounds better as a fuel source. It would definitely limit your field of vision a lot, but at the same time, it might be some good as an impact shield as a lot of it would vapourise if it gets hit hard enough, and that'll absorb at least some of the impact. Mind you, then you'd need another comet...

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/4/2016 7:28:24 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Bussard ramjets! Man, there's an idea you used to see in pop science, futurology and science fiction (isn't that how the ship in Tau Zero works?) all the time, but seems to have been utterly forgotten now. You reckon it was because of the x ray issue that one stopped being touted as a possibility?

A comet sounds better as a fuel source. It would definitely limit your field of vision a lot, but at the same time, it might be some good as an impact shield as a lot of it would vapourise if it gets hit hard enough, and that'll absorb at least some of the impact. Mind you, then you'd need another comet...


Part of it was the xray problem, another part was that the magnetic scope would have to be hundreds of kilometers across, basically meaning that all the energy produced would have to be used to keep the scope open.

But then physics discovered the possibility of wormholes, quantum singularities and the ramjet fell into the past, or course there is the recent discovery that even the speed of light is not constant, or does not appear to be.

In the oldest observed parts of the universe, light seems to travel slower than in the newer parts of the universe. This could be just a illusion caused by the media through which the observations are made.

Then there was the discovery of Gamma Ray bursters, stars exploding and for a brief instant, generated more energy than every star in the universe, or so it appeared.

But then there is something that has been observed at CERN.

Einstein said that the closer an object gets to the speed of light, the mass increases, finally reaching a point where it would be infinite, thus meaning that it would take an infinite amount of energy to push it beyond the light barrier, yet there is E=MC2.

Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared.

However, no one is really sure if relativistic mass behaves the same as real mass, in other words, does an object approaching the speed of light and thus becoming infinitely massive create a gravity well in the process.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/4/2016 9:36:54 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

If not socialism, then what? If personal wealth is not the measure of one's worth, but by their ability to contribute or amount they contribute to a society, what do you call it?

No idea, but it ain't socialism.

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/5/2016 5:29:23 AM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		A genuine meritocracy, perhaps?

jlf: thanks. Testing how a relativistic mass behaves would definitely be very tricky with any object that has enough mass to make it worth doing, wouldn't it?

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/5/2016 6:28:48 AM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

A genuine meritocracy, perhaps?

jlf: thanks. Testing how a relativistic mass behaves would definitely be very tricky with any object that has enough mass to make it worth doing, wouldn't it?


I was considering using Donald Trumps ego, actually

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/5/2016 8:30:20 AM   
WhoreMods


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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/5/2016 9:07:02 AM   
WickedsDesire


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Status: offline 		I know sciencey stuff – well I did before I went uttery fuking mad.

Gold cannot be created - the odd atom does not count in particle accelerators. The abundance is greater when wicked ravishes someone in the bedroom - I will not bore you with the technical malarkey or their sheer screaming orgasms of delight. Diamond is different because it’s a molecule.

Stars are eternal in many ways, and yet finite. In simple terms it is a battle between them trying to blow themselves apart and gravity and time.
No stars create gold…only the collision of two neutron stars have that capacity, outwith wickeds pantaloons region feasting between a women’s trembling thighs

Creator mood today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPiu4QmJyWs


< Message edited by WickedsDesire -- 8/5/2016 9:19:52 AM >

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RE: Nuclear Fusion impacts on human society - 8/5/2016 9:35:41 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

I know sciencey stuff – well I did before I went uttery fuking mad.

Gold cannot be created - the odd atom does not count in particle accelerators. The abundance is greater when wicked ravishes someone in the bedroom - I will not bore you with the technical malarkey or their sheer screaming orgasms of delight. Diamond is different because it’s a molecule.

Stars are eternal in many ways, and yet finite. In simple terms it is a battle between them trying to blow themselves apart and gravity
No stars create gold…only the collision of two neutron stars have that capacity, outwith wickeds pantaloons region feasting between a women’s trembling thighs

Creator mood today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPiu4QmJyWs




In a fusion reaction, gold can be created, it is done in the hearts of stars every day (well, actually in the hearts of stars just prior to them going super nova and ruining the neighborhood) in point of fact, when a star starts creating iron in the fusion reaction, it is on its last legs.


In the sun, hydrogen fuses with hydrogen making a helium atom and losing a few particles in the process, when all the hydrogen is used up, it starts fusing helium, and so forth.

If the star is big enough, this process continues up the periodic charts until the star explodes and collapses in on itself forming a black hole, in the process blasting out gamma rays that in a rarity in nature shoots out in a straight line.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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