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On punishment .... - 7/22/2006 5:20:21 PM

Posts: 249
Joined: 9/13/2005
From: Nashville, Tn
Status: offline

I realize that this topic may have been previously discussed; however, different day, different perspective. ......
After reading on another thread, I was wondering what YOUR ideas are on the word punishment?
What does the word punishment mean to you?
As a submissive, how does being having to be punished make you feel?
As a Dominant, how does having to punish make you feel?
I think that punishment is another one of those words that has individualized meaning. For some, it's a part of play. For others, punishment is a learning tool. And, for a few of us, maybe the last measure one has to take before considering an end to the relationship.
For me, it's serious. If I've done something bad enough to deserve punishment (not talking about correction or discipline), I need to take a second look at the relationship, myself, and why the punishment had to take place to begin with.
What are your thoughts?

(thanks for replies in advance)

Respectfully,
~enthralled

_____________________________

A man never discloses his own character so clearly as when he describes another's.-Jean Paul Richter

RE: On punishment .... - 7/22/2006 5:26:58 PM

Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
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Lord, I will only use punishment as a last resort before the door opens.

And if it has gone that far, I'm going to be feeling really miserable about it. I'll know I was partly to blame.(even if I really wasn't)

And when I am in misery, I am shading to a dark you do not even want to contemplate.

It's not going to be anything to do with play. But it will be some formidable task that's damned near impossible to do, without truly approaching or passing the breaking point.

Because I'm going to want to test the determination of the one atoning. And I'm not going to fuck around about it.

(in reply to enthralled)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/22/2006 5:35:02 PM

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
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The *idea* of needing punishment makes my stomach ache. Why would I want something that says I've screwed up so badly that the person I most care about feels a need to punish me? Correction, even that is hard for me, but I can handle that. I want to learn so I don't screw up. I do not want to need to ever be punished.

(in reply to enthralled)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/22/2006 5:40:33 PM

peta

Posts: 29
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline

Let me see...

Foolish

Childish

Un-necessary in an adult relationship.

peta

_____________________________

Not trying for the popularity vote

(in reply to enthralled)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/22/2006 5:42:10 PM

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: enthralled
After reading on another thread, I was wondering what YOUR ideas are on the word punishment?

I think, especially starting out, most people use it as an excuse to do kinky stuff.

I think most people have no idea how to use behavior modification effectively and end up frustrated on all sides.

quote:

What does the word punishment mean to you?

It is a negative consequence used to reduce the likelihood of a particular behavior being repeated.

quote:

As a submissive, how does being having to be punished make you feel?

The usual- annoyed and upset with myself, annoyed and upset at having failed the other person. While many subs encounter feeling cathartic after punishment, that really doesn't happen with me. I obsess far more than a punishment can help and I don't feel more secure just because a punishment has been enacted.

quote:

As a Dominant, how does having to punish make you feel?

Very concerned and annoyed that I now have to take so much time for something that I shouldn't have to. I have to rework my methods, find out what's causing the bad behavior, question my training procedures, rework future modifications...a lot.

quote:

What are your thoughts?

I think 90% of the time people use punishment as a way to avoid communication. I think 90% of the time, behavior that requires punishment is merely a symptom of a deeper problem. I think 90% of the time punishment is given it does absolutely nothing to actually change the behavior which caused the punishment.

If people actually used the mechanics of behavior modification accurately and held themselves truly accountable for what they did, and understood what they were agreeing to before going for it, punishment would be a very rare occurrence and a very serious issue. As it is now, it's pretty much considered a normal part of the authority dynamic relationship for most people.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to enthralled)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/22/2006 6:10:26 PM

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I am disciplined by my Daddy, not punished. I will not be with someone who punishes me because it is punitive, being punitive may work for criminals, but I am not a criminal. I am going to post the words for people from Websters...

Main Entry: pun·ish·ment

Pronunciation: 'p&-nish-m&nt
Function: noun
1 : the act of punishing
2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3 : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

If someone wants to perform an act of retribution against me, I can hardly see how that is a productive thing, nor is it loving.. here is the word discipline

Main Entry: 1dis·ci·pline

Pronunciation: 'di-s&-pl&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin disciplina teaching, learning, from discipulus pupil
1 : PUNISHMENT
2 obsolete : INSTRUCTION
3 : a field of study
4 : training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c : SELF-CONTROL
6 : a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity

I find the above in keeping with the goal of changing behavior. Others have different needs, and that's ok, but for me that is how I see it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to enthralled)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/22/2006 6:14:27 PM

Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: enthralled
After reading on another thread, I was wondering what YOUR ideas are on the word punishment?

I think, especially starting out, most people use it as an excuse to do kinky stuff.

I think most people have no idea how to use behavior modification effectively and end up frustrated on all sides.

quote:

What does the word punishment mean to you?

It is a negative consequence used to reduce the likelihood of a particular behavior being repeated.

quote:

As a submissive, how does being having to be punished make you feel?

The usual- annoyed and upset with myself, annoyed and upset at having failed the other person. While many subs encounter feeling cathartic after punishment, that really doesn't happen with me. I obsess far more than a punishment can help and I don't feel more secure just because a punishment has been enacted.

quote:

As a Dominant, how does having to punish make you feel?

Very concerned and annoyed that I now have to take so much time for something that I shouldn't have to. I have to rework my methods, find out what's causing the bad behavior, question my training procedures, rework future modifications...a lot.

quote:

What are your thoughts?

I think 90% of the time people use punishment as a way to avoid communication. I think 90% of the time, behavior that requires punishment is merely a symptom of a deeper problem. I think 90% of the time punishment is given it does absolutely nothing to actually change the behavior which caused the punishment.

If people actually used the mechanics of behavior modification accurately and held themselves truly accountable for what they did, and understood what they were agreeing to before going for it, punishment would be a very rare occurrence and a very serious issue. As it is now, it's pretty much considered a normal part of the authority dynamic relationship for most people.

Amen,well said.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/22/2006 7:14:55 PM

Posts: 1430
Joined: 10/6/2005
Status: offline

Punishment is a very serious word to us. I have been punished and the physical pain was nothing compared to the emotional pain I felt for committing my "crime." My Dom has a system that if I to do something wrong he would warn me. If I do it again I get a second warning and if a third time, I will be punished in a way he feels fits the offense. Twice since being together I have been punished. That was in the early days. I have learned that there is nothing worse than seeing "that" look in his eye. I work hard to avoid that now.

He does discipline me, which is teaching and training me to be what he wants as a submissive.

_____________________________

“I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” – Anais Nin

(in reply to Caretakr)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/22/2006 8:18:50 PM

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
If people actually used the mechanics of behavior modification accurately and held themselves truly accountable for what they did, and understood what they were agreeing to before going for it, punishment would be a very rare occurrence and a very serious issue.

Agreed. In my case, it is fairly rare and quite serious. And the reasons behind it are always uncovered, sometimes as a major revelation to both of us. Typically afterwards, the bond is even tighter - not because of the punishment itself, but because of my gratitude for him working with me, and because the underlying issue was uncovered and dealt with. In my case, a screw up is never due to defiance or refusal to obey, but because of something much deeper. LOTS of time is spent in contemplation and conversation and the severity of the actual punishment is such to ensure I won't forget it. It works for us, in the long run. He feels I need it, and I agree.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/22/2006 9:54:07 PM

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: enthralled

I realize that this topic may have been previously discussed; however, different day, different perspective. ......
After reading on another thread, I was wondering what YOUR ideas are on the word punishment?
What does the word punishment mean to you?
As a submissive, how does being having to be punished make you feel?
As a Dominant, how does having to punish make you feel?
I think that punishment is another one of those words that has individualized meaning. For some, it's a part of play. For others, punishment is a learning tool. And, for a few of us, maybe the last measure one has to take before considering an end to the relationship.
For me, it's serious. If I've done something bad enough to deserve punishment (not talking about correction or discipline), I need to take a second look at the relationship, myself, and why the punishment had to take place to begin with.
What are your thoughts?

~enthralled

Punishment—if we are to follow its actual meaning—is a form of retribution for an offense or misbehavior. When I punish a girl it is to correct, never to reward or play. There is usually a lengthy discussion prior to the sentence, in which she is made to see her fault in full detail. During the execution of the punishment, she will be reminded of her offense repeatedly, and how what she is experiencing is but a fraction of what she will experience should the offense be repeated.

The combination of thorough discussion and physical / emotional penance do very well in underscoring a point in one's memory. To date, I seldom see the offense repeated when using these methods in tandem.

< Message edited by amayos -- 7/22/2006 9:56:23 PM >

(in reply to enthralled)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/22/2006 10:32:52 PM

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

I am pretty open-minded on this topic, having only been punished twice, and never in a physical manner (just writing assignments). I guess it would depend on what the Dominant-Master person wanted to do. I have no long-held philiosophy on this. That might make me seem like a sitting duck, but I am really not.

If their idea of punishment was filletting my skin with a boning knife, or something similar, I'd 1)Find that out before I got involved with them and 2) Run like hell, if possible. Which is not to say I am opposed to physical punishment, even tough physical punishment. Just not open to "Silence of the Lambs" type of stuff - I'd get really scared and perhaps be scarred for life with something like that. I just know it.

Like I needed to say that. But I just wanted to get that out I guess. I am sure many others feel the same way I do. Maybe not worth mentioning. I am not insinuating that is something anyone would do, either, it's not, and I know that. But - there are some crazy people out there...
- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/22/2006 11:21:54 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to enthralled)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/23/2006 12:26:48 AM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

I have never accepted punishment as part of any of my relationships...unless I was sporting a plaid-miniskirt and pigtails, and calling him Teacher.

As an adult I am responsible for keeping my word, and for upholding my end of all my relationships. My D/s relationships are no different. My friends don't punish me, my family doesn't punish me, my boss doesn't punish me. Neither do my dominant partners. Bottom line (no pun intended ).

On the other hand, there are always consequences for behaviour. These can be organic to the situation (Ex: I forgot to return a friend's phonecall 2 weeks ago, and they gave their spare theatre ticket to someone else). Or they can be created (I once had a friend who was never less than 20 minutes late everytime we met for lunch, and we decided that everytime he was more than 5 minutes late he bought my lunch. It worked. LOL)

In short, punishment is play. Consequences are what we accept when we are mature, responsible adults.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/23/2006 1:03:39 AM

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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Wow, Cinful - I have a friend who is consistently late. One time, I went on a vacation to another town, even, and she was supposed to show up to meet me there on Tuesday and showed up on Wednesday. I was so worried, I had the local police out searching for her - and I was miffed when she said she was "just running late" (yeah, a whole day and a half late). I got over it - but maybe something akin to your solution would work. I may try this. I like her so much, but it gets really annoying, at times.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/23/2006 1:15:09 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/23/2006 1:45:33 AM

Posts: 95
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: Manchester UK
Status: offline

Maybe it is just because i am relatively new to BDSM but while i do associate the word "punishment" with negative thoughts i do not feel as strongly as some of the responses so far. i do not intend to be bratty or a sub who does not listen so am pretty sure i will never come across a punishment but when does discipline cross over into a punishment? Is there a standard line (probably not knowing the BDSM field! Each to their own!)??

Take care all

submaleslaveuk darren

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/23/2006 2:02:37 AM

Posts: 4470
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Punishment would mean to have disapointed him and that is bad, it is not somthing i want, play and spakining is for fun, and is not called punishment in our household.

(in reply to submaleslaveuk)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/23/2006 2:22:28 AM

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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To answer the question broadly: Something is something I don't enjoy doing - at all, and would either find: 1) Very boring or, 2) Very painful - or both. I suppose it would serve to insure that I rarely, if ever, engaged in whatever conduct seemed to necessitate the punishment, again. Well, actually, I take that back. Because one time I was punished via being ignored (not phoned, or seen for a week). But I guess that does qualify as having been boring (for me, perhaps for Him, too).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/23/2006 2:32:14 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to nephandi)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/23/2006 2:39:07 AM

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Joined: 11/22/2004
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actually peta, I think that all humans have the need to receive negative consequences for their wrongful actions... it's usually called "reality discipline".

If there wasn't a need for adults to receive punishment for doing wrong, all of the jails would be empty.

(in reply to peta)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/23/2006 2:52:17 AM

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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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wery true.

(in reply to Calandra)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/23/2006 9:30:51 AM

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Susan, "filleting my skin with a boning knife."
LMAO!
Susan, I LOVE your posts!!! lol

(in reply to nephandi)

RE: On punishment .... - 7/23/2006 9:49:20 AM

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleslaveuk
but when does discipline cross over into a punishment? Is there a standard line (probably not knowing the BDSM field! Each to their own!)??

Take care all

submaleslaveuk darren

Discipline is the umbrella term for "controlled behavior."

Punishment is one of many methods within the umbrella of discipline to create controlled behavior.

Reward, reinforcement, both negative and positive, training, repetition, and many other methods are all also within this large umbrella which acts towards the goal of controlled behavior.

So it is not that "discipline" becomes "punishment." But rather "When do you use that method of discipline versus another method of discipline?"

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to submaleslaveuk)

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