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What is the “moral justification” for death by reli... - 12/20/2016 8:48:29 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		Let me cast aside Americans gun themselves down at the rate of 35 000 per annum and gun injuries another 75 000ish per annum.


And I will skip to the latest which is talked about on these forums as I was following some of the stuff said on it……

This one:
In all, 12 people were killed and 48 wounded when the lorry ploughed into Berlin's Christmas market.

On the evening of 14 July 2016, a 19 tonne cargo truck was deliberately driven into crowds celebrating Bastille Day on the Promenade des Anglais in Nice, France, resulting in the deaths of 86 people and injuring 434.

They do not target “Christians” they are indiscriminate.
Merkel is not responsible

So who is and why and what can be done.

When the twin towers came down I was actually surprised you didn't bomb (perhaps with your allies for I know the UK must stand with the Americans - distasteful as that is for me to say) the cradle of civilisation back to the crib.
Have things taken a bit of a turn for the worst after that nexus?
And was it the fault of those actions/inactions
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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/20/2016 9:45:12 AM   
blnymph


Posts: 1612
Joined: 11/13/2010
Status: offline 		Regarding the header of your thread: In my opinion there is none - no justification ever for death by religion. It won't help much, if I detest it, I know. This killing has been going on for so many centuries, and is continued. It is tragic, it does not make the least bit of sense, it is complete madness. Whether this ability for madness is part of the human genome - I still doubt it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire
...

So who is and why and what can be done.
...


Who is: I think it is obvious from how it worked in the past, and in present: The hate preachers of whatever, the "Us against them" preachers, the "the injustice against us needs revenge" preachers. They are visible, they are loud, they declare themselves and their actions justified.

Why: I have no short answer. Not even three or five or a dozen short answers.

What can be done: The only thing I know (and I know it is not popular):
I do not allow these people to make me hating whoever and whatever they want me to hate. Even if I fear harm or death, it is not the fear these people want to incite in me.


Terrorists win not by killing all of us, but by chasing us into our little safe caves and make us fear everyone outside of it, stirring up our little stone age instincts and fears. They want us licking every boot stomping on our fingers and telling us, you are all safe as long as we step on you, just tell us to do it.

Over the last years, and events you listed, they have achieved quite a lot, far too much in my opinion, not by their actions, but by the many various reactions to their actions.

I know my attitude won't prevent any of these from doing what they have been-are-will be doing and will not remove their arms. But they will not win their victory either.



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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/20/2016 11:18:00 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

When the twin towers came down I was actually surprised you didn't bomb (perhaps with your allies for I know the UK must stand with the Americans - distasteful as that is for me to say) the cradle of civilisation back to the crib.

What is the appropriate and proportional response to an act of terror? For many of us the response by Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld was a major foreign policy lunacy. Yes, the attack was shocking, but it was not unprecedented. There was a failure of government officials to prepare the nation for such a massive destruction, and then our leaders prosecuted Saddam out of convenience, diddling with the intel and ignoring warnings of the consequences, which proved true.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/21/2016 5:16:04 AM   
blnymph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

When the twin towers came down I was actually surprised you didn't bomb (perhaps with your allies for I know the UK must stand with the Americans - distasteful as that is for me to say) the cradle of civilisation back to the crib.

What is the appropriate and proportional response to an act of terror? For many of us the response by Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld was a major foreign policy lunacy. Yes, the attack was shocking, but it was not unprecedented. There was a failure of government officials to prepare the nation for such a massive destruction, and then our leaders prosecuted Saddam out of convenience, diddling with the intel and ignoring warnings of the consequences, which proved true.


Do you think a kind of "second Pearl Harbor" way of thinking could have played a role?

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/21/2016 5:26:59 AM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		Can't speak for Vincent, but Pearl Harbour isn't a very good comparison as that mobilised the 'States against a genuine international threat, rather than contriving an excuse for George II and his organ grinder to invade a state that had untapped oil reserves and nothing to do with the attacks. The PR exercise elements of the two are quite similar (remember how George II spent his first year in office being dismissed as a lame duck and failing to cast China as a terrible threat? A large scale terrorist attack on New York was the best thing that could have happened to him at that point), but the situations the attacks took place under and the results of the attacks bear no resemblance at all.

< Message edited by WhoreMods -- 12/21/2016 5:27:08 AM >

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/21/2016 6:55:21 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		blnymph those are pretty much a lot of my thoughts....

I stopped going to catholic mass at 14-15 and was an altar boy for a bit - not one of the abused ones....yes we stole the wine it wasn't too bad. And when I got married, now long divorced, I married a “protestant” whatever that really means

I dont doubt for one iota of a second in these recent epochs our strikes/policies have killed innocent souls - collateral damage is a term I do not like.

So are you lot telling me there are no solutions and therefore the status quo will continue.....origins of religion no one really knows for sure it becomes lost in time immemorial/recorded history. So I am not really sure when then killing started...anyone know?

I know god(s) started with the deluge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths

I'd ban all religion is my only solution. I see none of them tolerating all huwmans...shame I have to label them all as such. In part ive been wrestling for quite some time do most people have free will, can make informed choices.

However Religion has existed since time immemorial and it is unlikely it could ever be banned/outlawed.

Part of my mind thinks wipe them back to the stone age – but they are already there just armed with more formidable weaponry…

So it would appear I have zero solutions in reality and are fuk all out of ideas – doesn’t happen alot that

God(s) were completely indiscriminate at the “great Deluge”

For me to say I do not mind religion I now believe is a false statement…I have no problems talking/liking/dating any one of any religious denomination…dichotomy I spose those two taken together.

That aside momentum is a terrible thing when they aim these trucks they are doing so indiscriminately…and in essence that has nothing to do with religion

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/21/2016 9:02:22 AM   
blnymph


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Status: offline 		@Vincent and WM:

I wonder because I faintly remember that this 2nd Pearl Harbor argument popped up somewhere in the press (could have been German press only) after 9/11 and adults explained to me what (they thought) Pearl Harbor meant.

@WD

In my family it was custom to marry someone with the "wrong song book" for at least 4 generations. My grandparents and my parents needed papal permission to marry, so in consequence I exist with papal blessing
Maybe the wide choice made me respect the specific achievements of whatever religion, the inspiring potentials, the culture and art. But I also detest the specific stubbornness, the claims to decide about and rule over their followers' and non-followers' lives. I ignore these whenever I can and I try to fight them whenever they bother me.

I would not ban them - but I would restrict their power and claims to an absolute minimum.

I once read about a very wise decision: When the different christian denominations could not agree about who owns, controls, decides, about all or how much of the Holy Grave Church in Jerusalem, the authorities appointed a hereditary Muslim janitor and only holder of keys. I think it dates back to many centuries ago, but ended almost all the conflicts about it ever since. Sounds like a wise idea.




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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/22/2016 1:25:57 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		It's hard to convince the self-righteous to take a close look at themselves.

That's the fatal flaw in organized religion.

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/23/2016 8:27:06 AM   
ManOeuvre


Posts: 277
Joined: 3/2/2013
Status: offline 		Re: OP.

I think that depends on your world view.

If you are uncertain about many things, as most reasonable people are, then killing is incredibly difficult to justify, one needs to go through a tremendous degree of justification (or rationalization, as the case may be) in order to actually pull the trigger.

If you are certain, beyond an epistemic black hole, about particular propositions with respect to cosmology, the origins of man, etc, then it's trivially easy to pull the trigger.

Some people are more certain than I am certain that tomorrow is Saturday, that (in their strange combination of solipsism and narcissism) the universe was created specifically with them in mind by a specific being who wants the whole world to be just so, and any deviation from that idea results in an eternity of hellfire for the deviants.

If you could download those absolute certainties into your brain and give them top billing I think you'd find these people to be doing the lord's good work.

If you were certain as can be that putting a bag over your daughter's head will save her from an eternity of hellfire, you'd risk life and limb to do so! To not do so would be bad parenting, much worse than smoking around the kids or not buckling them up in the car.

Regardless the Palestine predicament, the oil issue, the Kashmir quagmire, the Sudan squeeze, the East-Timor (stupid name...) time-bomb, the Bali question, the Mindanao monstrosity, the Bengali quandary, the Balkan obstacle, the dilemma of the Uyghurs.....

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/23/2016 12:22:07 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

@Vincent and WM:

I wonder because I faintly remember that this 2nd Pearl Harbor argument popped up somewhere in the press (could have been German press only) after 9/11 and adults explained to me what (they thought) Pearl Harbor meant.

WM writes that there was no comparison between Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

That is true as far as the nature and intent of the attackers were concerned.

I would argue however that the affect upon Americans was similar outrage and hysterical war frenzy. Even to this day the military is always with us at sporting events with the singing of the Anthem, the unfurling of a huge flag, the fighter jet fly-overs, and the staged family reunions at the center of the arena, all of which the Department of Defense pays big bucks to the sports teams to facilitate. America is quietly primed to go to war. In 1941 and 2001, not so much.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/23/2016 5:51:42 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		...instead, W invented "pre-emptive" war.

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/25/2016 1:55:17 PM   
blnymph


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Joined: 11/13/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

Re: OP.
...
If you are certain, beyond an epistemic black hole, about particular propositions with respect to cosmology, the origins of man, etc, then it's trivially easy to pull the trigger.

Some people are more certain than I am certain that tomorrow is Saturday, that (in their strange combination of solipsism and narcissism) the universe was created specifically with them in mind by a specific being who wants the whole world to be just so, and any deviation from that idea results in an eternity of hellfire for the deviants.

If you could download those absolute certainties into your brain and give them top billing I think you'd find these people to be doing the lord's good work.
...




What miserable but proclaimed almighty god does require those his miserable followers to do what should be his own "good work" but for some cosmic reason is too busy elsewhere, or too lazy, or not interested at all?

Of course it's a rhetorical question: This is (one of the arguments) what turns the followers of whatever religion into a criminal gang.

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/25/2016 3:38:06 PM   
itsSIRtou


Posts: 836
Joined: 3/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

Re: OP.
...
If you are certain, beyond an epistemic black hole, about particular propositions with respect to cosmology, the origins of man, etc, then it's trivially easy to pull the trigger.

Some people are more certain than I am certain that tomorrow is Saturday, that (in their strange combination of solipsism and narcissism) the universe was created specifically with them in mind by a specific being who wants the whole world to be just so, and any deviation from that idea results in an eternity of hellfire for the deviants.

If you could download those absolute certainties into your brain and give them top billing I think you'd find these people to be doing the lord's good work.
...



What miserable but proclaimed almighty god does require those his miserable followers to do what should be his own "good work" but for some cosmic reason is too busy elsewhere, or too lazy, or not interested at all?

Of course it's a rhetorical question: This is (one of the arguments) what turns the followers of whatever religion into a criminal gang.


All it really takes is one misguided man who is capable of being a persuasive enough liar to get others to buy into his version of the scriptures of his religion of choice. then he gets those he dupes into doing the same to others.

think of it a mind ponzi-scheme. It is indeed just as bankrupt as a monetary one.





< Message edited by itsSIRtou -- 12/25/2016 3:39:28 PM >

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I will allways be a knight, instead of a prince.

What would the internet be like if we couldn't say trump is a moron?

The Republican party complains government doesnt work for people, and then makes darn sure it cannot.

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/25/2016 4:20:37 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: itsSIRtou

quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

Re: OP.
...
If you are certain, beyond an epistemic black hole, about particular propositions with respect to cosmology, the origins of man, etc, then it's trivially easy to pull the trigger.

Some people are more certain than I am certain that tomorrow is Saturday, that (in their strange combination of solipsism and narcissism) the universe was created specifically with them in mind by a specific being who wants the whole world to be just so, and any deviation from that idea results in an eternity of hellfire for the deviants.

If you could download those absolute certainties into your brain and give them top billing I think you'd find these people to be doing the lord's good work.
...



What miserable but proclaimed almighty god does require those his miserable followers to do what should be his own "good work" but for some cosmic reason is too busy elsewhere, or too lazy, or not interested at all?

Of course it's a rhetorical question: This is (one of the arguments) what turns the followers of whatever religion into a criminal gang.


All it really takes is one misguided man who is capable of being a persuasive enough liar to get others to buy into his version of the scriptures of his religion of choice. then he gets those he dupes into doing the same to others.

think of it a mind ponzi-scheme. It is indeed just as bankrupt as a monetary one.






It's that free will thing... and it's tax exempt.

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/26/2016 4:05:58 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		Actually the science of the brain highly suggests that some, are so sick (mentally deranged) they don't have free will.

As for murder which is what we are really discussing...there is no moral justification...religious or otherwise.

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/26/2016 6:27:22 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Self-righteousness seems to lead to that diseased mental state, however.

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RE: What is the “moral justification” for death by ... - 12/26/2016 6:40:17 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Let me cast aside Americans gun themselves down at the rate of 35 000 per annum and gun injuries another 75 000ish per annum.


And I will skip to the latest which is talked about on these forums as I was following some of the stuff said on it……

This one:
In all, 12 people were killed and 48 wounded when the lorry ploughed into Berlin's Christmas market.

On the evening of 14 July 2016, a 19 tonne cargo truck was deliberately driven into crowds celebrating Bastille Day on the Promenade des Anglais in Nice, France, resulting in the deaths of 86 people and injuring 434.

They do not target “Christians” they are indiscriminate.
Merkel is not responsible

So who is and why and what can be done.

When the twin towers came down I was actually surprised you didn't bomb (perhaps with your allies for I know the UK must stand with the Americans - distasteful as that is for me to say) the cradle of civilisation back to the crib.
Have things taken a bit of a turn for the worst after that nexus?
And was it the fault of those actions/inactions


Well most of the terrorists of 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia, and they are our friends... don't ya know.

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