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NookieNotes -> RE: -= What in the world is a straight trans? =- (4/15/2017 4:24:29 AM)
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I thought I'd jump in here with what ever help I have to offer, since I've been researching this quite a while for my own reasons.
Trans is a terrible word because it could mean a lot of different things, and CS is not clear what they intended it to be.
Also, I'd like to plug this:
Lee Harrington Hosts A Week of Gender Discussions! http://www.collarchat.com/m_5022827/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#5022827
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ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Gender preference can and often includes genital preference. Not everyone is attracted to just the emotional aspects of the gender role, they have physical preferences too.
This is true.
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Of note, I presume that you are talking about a male transsexual... correct? A "trans man" is the term for a female transsexual. A bio female that identifies as a man (FTM).
Yup.
Transsexual is not only out of date, but offensive to may, although older trangendered people stlll use it, as they identify with the term. To many, it seems to clinical.
Transgender is the preferred nomenclature.
A TransMan is someone born female who identifies as male and lives as male, regardless of physical attributes. Also known as FtM.
A TransWoman is someone born male who identifies as female and lives as female, regardless of physical attributes. Also known as MtF.
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ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
. . . and what is with the Sexuality box choice of "All"? If your choices are - Straight - Bisexual - Gay - Lesbian & - All . . . how could you be straight & gay? And if 'gay' is meant to refer to male homosexuality verses female lesbian homosexuality, how can you be gay & lesbian. You can't be "all" since the terms are contradictory. Imagine someone claiming they are a straight bisexual gay lesbian... what the hell does that mean?
I would guess all is supposed to refer to Pansexuality or sexuality without regard to gender preferences. Again, not the right terminology.
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ORIGINAL: LisaSadistic
You missed my point. If a trans man wants to be acknowledged as a man, then that person is likewise obligated to acknowledge trans women as women, or else that person is a hypocrite. Correct?
Yes.
Acknowledging someone as the gender they choose and being attracted to that person are not the same thing. I can acknowledge you as female, even be attracted to females, and not be attracted to you.
Because of your genitalia, because of your hair color, because of chemistry...
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For example, part of a documentary I saw. A straight trans man is dissapointed that straight cis women will not date him. But of course, most straight cis women want someone with a penis attached. That's why they call themselves straight. So the trans man ends up dating lesbians but is resentful that the lesbians still identify as lesbian, even though he identifies as straight and as a man. He wants the validation of a straight cis woman seeing him as a man, regardless of his genitals. But he himself will not date trans women, even though he identifies as straight and they identify as women, because his own definition of straight, at least when applied to himself, includes wanting someone of a certain genital configuration. I'd say that's hypocritical.
It's not hypocritical at all.
It's his definitions. His identification.
Let's give this a shot. Let's say you were dating someone who constantly mislabeled you as a little, when you are most certainly not a little. And no matter how much you say, " I am not a little," they still see you that way and treat you that way. Unfortunately, everyone who wants to date you dates you because you are a little to them. In fact, the entire world tells you that you are a little, because that is what they see, regardless of how you FEEL.
It's like that.
It's not a fun place to be, that dysmorphia.
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ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I really don't know if I consider CM terribly trans* friendly.
I don't. It was coded and the tone was set over a decade a go. It's not changed, and there is no reason for most people here to want it to.
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ORIGINAL: dcnovice
My takeaway from this thread is that CM labels may not be the best tool for plumbing the complexities of gender identity. [;)]
This is true. Which, is, of course, how profiles can help.
However, part of the issue is the overall atmosphere for many, who are not made welcome, and the fact that those who spew hate are not quickly removed or dealt with... leaves questions about whether non-traditional genders and people are welcome.
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ORIGINAL: CaptR
I'm going to catch flak for this I'm sure. Between LGBT, binary, non binary, pronouns, gender fluid, gender non-conforming, asexual, cisgender, gender dysphoria ... Who the fuck knows what gender identity is what? People of diverse gender have subdivided themselves into a ridiculous amount of categories and I've grown apothetic. I'm supportive but Jesus .... Let the hate mail begin.
I'm not gonna hate on you. I'm going to suggest that perhaps there is an equivalent in your own world.
Are you religious? Christian? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
Or just dominant? Daddy Dom? Sadistic Dom? Sensual Dom? Leather? Primal? Top?
Why not just "kinky fucker," then you can sort it out through discussion? We all do it. We search for the labels that define us, and we look for JUST the right ones, so we feel explained.
It's difficult learning new words and applying them to people. I don't know all the different religions, and I don't care. I just leanr how my friends identify and accept that. That's good enough for me.
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ORIGINAL: DesFIP
The problem with declaring anything sexual as hypocritical is that it ignores chemistry/attraction. If you don't feel desire towards someone, you can't just manufacture it. Life would be a lot easier if we could.
Yes, exactly.
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ORIGINAL: shiftyw
Again- as a kinky person- have we not "subdivided" ourselves endlessly?
If I say I'm a sub- that doesn't mean slave- but it doesn't mean just bedroom only either. I could be a rope bunny, a maso, a slut who likes being shared, I could be into scat and piss play or fire and electricity- it's the same thing with all these meddling gay and trans kids.
People don't fit into boxes nicely sometimes. It's really that easy. It takes even less time and money to be educated about trans and LGBTQ lingo than it does to learn about kink. I think your confusion is just kinda an excuse to not learn about it- I don't want to give anyone undue credit here- but aren't you all smart enough to figure this shit out?
If you'd actually like to put effort into learning about it (instead of just trying to explain your confusion): http://www.fantasiafair.org/Glossary_of_Terms.aspx
Perfectly stated.
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ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
However you read me right in that I feel we have redundantly over-complicated the terms for gender identity.
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I just think the straight majority feels we have gone too far.
So, do the straight majority, in your eyes, have a right to set the identities for people they have (at best) ignored and possibly much worse for most of human history?
I'm not offended by your statement, so please don't take this as an attack. I'm just asking is it cool for us (the mainstream majority) to decided what people are labeled and can identify as, and what words we can use or not?
Is that OK for race as well as gender identity and sexual orientation?
Do you feel that me saying I am a kinkster (as I identify on Fet) is enough to explain that I am dominant in my relationships and that I top and bottom based on my personal choices and chemistry? I don't. I don't press the issue for the site to give me more options, either. I do, however, feel it is appropriate for me to have words to explain my primary identity in kink in shorthand that others understand.
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Now the politically correct, oversensitive gender identity community wants to eliminate the terms "he" and "she" to replace them with the universal term "ze" because . . .
We NEED people who will push the envelope, so that we can arrive at a reasonable settle point.
The pendulum swings between two extremes, and settles in the middle.
It's a shame that there has to be SO MUCH DIVIDE to get to that middle, when we are just talking about humans, but there you have it.
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So far, no one has been able to tell me whether a man's profile listed as Trans & Straight is seeking men, women or both.
A straight trans person will be looking for someone whose gender is in opposition to their chosen gender.
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ORIGINAL: CaptR
I'm going to admit guilt in believing what I read and have seen on TV. Some and I stress it's probably a minority are quite vocal and hostile if you don't use the correct pronoun in addressing them.
Some are. That pendulum swing I mentioned above.
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To me, that's a little over the top. I'm the epitome of the clueless white middle aged male but I don't lack understanding or a willingness to learn.
But as that clueless dude, you don't get to say what is over the top. Neither do I. We get to either support them or not. I choose support.
Using the wrong terminology or stating you don't care means, you may be called out. It's like some people stubbornly hanging on to the word "negro," since that's what they know, and it just keeps changing to much. "You mean I can't use colored anymore, either?"
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ORIGINAL: JVoV
http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2011/11/list-of-cisgender-privileges/#sthash.kycUxU11.dpbs
Somewhere in that list is not having strangers concerned/asking about what your genitals look like, or who you're fucking.
If you're actually interested, then why not just ask the person directly?
Another link I'll leave here:
http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2013/01/a-comprehensive-list-of-lgbtq-term-definitions/#sthash.YBk21DnM.dpbs
Very nicely put.
I do believe in doing some of the emotional labor of spreading awareness as I can and as I understand it. I don't believe in having to put that on those who have to do that every day.
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ORIGINAL: Gunshow
I think there are 3 natural categories for gender:
* Traditional male / female
* Transitioned male / female
* Other / nonbinary / fluid
Before hormone therapy and genital reassignment sugery, the second category didn't exist, and gender queers would tend towards Other. In this view, a traditional bull dyke might be considered gender queer yet traditional female and not transsexual. I believe transsexuals used to be more about mixed gender in terms of biological sexual characteristics. Chicks with dicks, etc. Now it seems most trans talk is about those seeking a complete transition and leaving mixed characteristics behind.
Hmmm. I don't see this as accurate at all, according to what I've studied, the discussions I've had or the classes I've attended.
Perhaps this is a geographical/cultural or even generational thing?
Because you are using words like transsexual which are not approved of by much of anyone except the older generation and medical professionals, for example.
And the talk I've seen is about "complete transition," as you've stated it being completely non-issue to anyone but those going through it and their (chosen or bio- families).
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ORIGINAL: ReMakeYou
Again, it boils down to random people on the internet not being precise in their definitions. Nothing more.
I think you have a point here, however, I'd like to point something out.
Words are different in different areas of the country. Or for people with different experiences. Add to that that straight orientation and same-sex behavior are not mutually exclusive (think navy ships or jail).
So, there is complexity that is incredibly difficult to portray in words in a profile.
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ORIGINAL: CaptR
As stated I have gained an interest and started reading more on the subject of gender identity. The NatGeo article was informative via gender identification from formation of the fetus in the womb to sociological influences on the development of gender identity. It was a start so your suggestions to become better informed didn't fall on deaf ears.
The biological roots are fascinating. I've studied those since "Brain Sex" came out when I was 16? 17?
And YAY! for you taking some time to learn.
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ORIGINAL: WindAndSky
~FR~
It's really not tough to understand. A trans man is a man who was born female-bodied. No, "trans man" is not the word for a female transsexual, because they're not female, regardless of the genitals they were born with. The word for someone who was born a woman and became a man is simply "man." The same for people born men, who became women. They're not "male trans," they're "women."
So, a straight trans man (FtM) is a man, who is attracted to women. A straight trans woman (MtF) is a woman, who is attracted to men.
Beautifully put.
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ORIGINAL: DesFIP
I learned about transsexuals over 45 years ago. When Jan Morris of the London Times spoke openly about it. That's over 25 years since Christine Jorgensen. If a 13 year old killing time by reading the paper found this easily understandable, then why the hell can 40 year olds and older not understand this? Are people really that dumb?
Not dumb. Inflexible might be a better answer.
Change is bad, evolutionarily speaking. People "not like us," also bad. And brain pathways get worn down like trails through the forest. When they become superhighways, it's difficult to go offroad.
And there is also willful ignorance out of fear to contend with.
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ORIGINAL: shiftyw
I have several non gender conforming friends. These past couple of years have been the deadliest for trans women. Meaning- murder is up. Their lives depend on acceptance and education. So thank you.
THIS.
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