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Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/8/2004 4:21:58 AM

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If you use a cane or flogger very hard, without much warmup, it hurts and is definitely a nasty experience for the sub.

If you use it slowly, with good warmup, even hitting very hard it's very pleasant for the sub.

Is it still a better idea to always keep separate tools for punishment and reward - like two different sizes of cane, or keep canes for punishment and floggers for reward?

RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/8/2004 4:51:16 AM

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Humph. I LIKE being hit hard, without warmup, with a cane or switch. Not much of a punishment, then, is it?

You see, there's a serious flaw in your question, and it's going to get you the same answer that most of these sorts of questions garner: "It really depends on a lot of different variables"

Some folks are masochists. No matter what you do with a toy, it isn't really a punishment.

Some folks are not masochistic, and no matter how you use it, the toy is still a punishment. Yes, even floggers.

Some dominants are sadistic, and for them pain play is a major aspect of personal time with their subs. Whether the sub takes the lash willingly for their own delight, or else accepts it for their top's amusement, it is still play time for the top.

Some dominants are not sadistic, and really do not like causing pain to their submissives, even if the submissive delights in it. They may sparingly use the whip as a special reward for good behavior, but would be unwilling to use it for punishment, typically coming up with some other method of behavior modification, if such is deemed nessesary.

There are an infinite number of potential variables to your question, and none of them are the right answer - or rather, they all are, for someone. Just not, nessesarily, for you.

Clear as mud?

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/8/2004 8:04:15 AM

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There's a thread on punishment on the submissives' board I think. And if you read it you'll find that not one mentioned pain as punishment -- as I recall the majority mentioned being ignored or some other mental approach as the best punishments.

So what does that do to your "theory"? Would you now ask if you want to punish instead of play you should change your mind? heh

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/8/2004 8:14:35 AM

MasterMindMesmer

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Ouch already

Nothing is black and white, some feel pain in pleasure some feel pleasure in pain, some feel pain in pain, some find pleasure in pleasure.

It all in the mind.

-MMM

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/8/2004 8:38:57 AM

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angelbob I find it very effective to have a series of tools that are keep strictly for punishment. These tools are reviered by My slaves and sluts and they know full well they have over stepped a line of behaviour if these tools see the light of day.

Jasmyn

(in reply to angelbob)

RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/10/2004 12:34:51 PM

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I think it best if one or more tools can be reserved for punishment, leaving all other tools for discipline. Personally, I reserve my belt for punishment. Often, all I have to do is reach for my belt buckle to show my displeasure -- the slave knows and feels.

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/10/2004 12:45:38 PM

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I agree with what you say, but have been told they see and feel punishment differently than discipline. In punishment the pain is not pleasureable. They know in their minds and hearts they erred, and the punishment pain is negative energy they deserve. In discipline the pain is love and caring. They know they need the positive energy of the pain to be guided down the proper path.

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/10/2004 1:20:59 PM

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quote:

If you use a cane or flogger very hard, without much warmup, it hurts and is definitely a nasty experience for the sub.

If you use it slowly, with good warmup, even hitting very hard it's very pleasant for the sub.

To general of a comment. I don't care HOW much *warm-up* you use, a cane is never pleasant to me. I am not into pain PERIOD. It's always punishment, so I'd just as soon no warm up and get it the hell over with...

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/10/2004 4:01:06 PM

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Thank you. This answers my question quite well.

I'll know to phrase better next time, since pretty much everybody got stuck on the "is pain a punishment?" thing :-)

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/10/2004 4:25:16 PM

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angel,
I know you have 'closed' this thread and you have gotten many good comments, suggestions, and answers. I hadn't answered before because I was trying to figure out a short way write out my feelings on this subject.

I have a 'symbolic' separate tool for punishment. When beth first became my slave, I expand and announced that a certain cane, always displayed in our bedroom, would be used for punishment. It has been used a few times. But during the punishment I noticed a very special dynamic and it was one of the ways at the beginning of our relationship, that I knew beth was as real in her slavery and as I was in my Mastery.

I noticed that before the first stoke fell tears welled up in beth's eyes. I noticed that although beth had received and even enjoyed harsher sessions, when it was 'punishment', as it should be for either of us, there was no pleasure or joy involved.

In our case the "special/separate" tool used only for punishment is a part of our mind or soul. It's part of our persona that we hope and strive not to visit often. We both know it's there, we both respect it, and know if needed - it would be used. The longer we have lived together the more we know to avoid that feeling, that part of us. I think it is at such a level now, that if I hung an ostrich feather in the place of the cane and used it - it would have the same painful effect.

That how we address the subject of your question.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/10/2004 4:42:04 PM >

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/10/2004 4:29:11 PM

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quote:

I noticed that before the first stoke fell tears welled up in beth's eyes.

My guess is the tears are for her having disappointed you rather than the anticipation of the pain of punishment. But beth can answer that better than i can.

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/10/2004 4:54:24 PM

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quote:

I have a 'symbolic' separate tool for punishment.

The first dominant that was more than *play* and that I called Master was like that. He was one that did a specific time contract for our relationship. I was to buy a paddle to *gift* to him, and that was my punishment paddle. It was to be used only for punishment, so I picked one that was solid, large, thick and had no holes. I didn't need it to be painful for it to hurt, beacuse I'm like Beth. I ALWAYS am more upset knowing I failed in doing something or disappointed in some way than I could ever become from a physical punishment.

::Laughing:: he did offer to give it to me when we parted, but it was not something I really wanted in my toy bag :)

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/10/2004 10:58:29 PM

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welll hell, hit your sub with it when they earned it and just flaunt it around them when they don't. "ha ha, you don't deserve this today" Even better you may want to bound them, then have them watch as you use you're tool on yourself or someone else driving them mentally bonkers.

anyrate, if the want your pain, this it's something they must gain.

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 12/23/2004 9:49:02 PM

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IT depends on the "attitude" and frame of mind if it is punnishment or pleasure.

The person on the receaving end will know what it is WAY before it starts.

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 1/9/2005 5:25:45 AM

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Yes well, that brings to mind a conversation I've had (more than once) with my partner.

"What will happen if I fail to cum on command?"

"You will be punished with a spanking."

"What will happen if I do cum?"

"You will be rewarded with a spanking."

(in reply to Kinkypupper)

RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 1/9/2005 11:29:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelbob

If you use a cane or flogger very hard, without much warmup, it hurts and is definitely a nasty experience for the sub.

If you use it slowly, with good warmup, even hitting very hard it's very pleasant for the sub.

Is it still a better idea to always keep separate tools for punishment and reward - like two different sizes of cane, or keep canes for punishment and floggers for reward?

I have a decidely nasty quirt that I use exclusively for correction. As you say, application is the key to making it an effective tool for that sort of thing.

I am very committed to making punishment a thing that nobody will want twice.

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RE: Using the same tool to punish & reward? - 1/9/2005 11:54:33 AM

stef

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There was a certain dressage whip in my past that was used specifically for punishment. There was *never* any mistaking use of that implement as anything pleasurable.

~stef

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